Info on SDA (continued)

[Richard_Kastner]

Do yuu really not understand the point being made. It doesn’t seem so. It is not being argued that at the time of Jesus that the Sabbath was a Saturday but that it you cannot know if it was a Saturday through out time.

Why not? If it was Saturday then, it was Saturday at creation, and it’s Saturday now.

 

[RonTheNewJew]

Why not? If it was Saturday then, it was Saturday at creation, and it’s Saturday now.

I agree with you, Richard, that, in good conscience you understand the Sabbath to be on Saturday, the seventh day of the week. I would also let our Catholic friends know that, to the degree that they say SDAs cannot be certain that Saturday is the seventh day in fact, to that same degree, Catholics cannot be sure their first day of the week is on Sundays.

They claim to have been given the right to make any changes to that which God said could not be changed: “I shall not alter the thing that has gone out of My lips.” And, behold I make a New Covenant with the House of Israel (we, today, are the “Israel of God.”

The thing that had "gone out of (His) lips were the 613 laws, ordinances, statutes and judgements. Moses also wrote the Ten Commandments in the same Book of the Law after the Ten Commandments were written on tables of stone by the Lord God, Himself.
When in doubt, turn to the Jews. they know, likely more than anyone else when the seventh day of the week comes.

PS. There’s a huge difference between the two Covenants and the two testaments. Both Covenants were put in place during the Old Testament time-frame. The New Testament began when Jesus was sacrificed to provide a way out of the sin problem by justification, and sanctification through th indwelling of the Holy Spirit. One is for the forgiveness of sin. The second one is to help us be fit for Heaven.

 

[benidict]

I’ve been avoiding answering the question about stoning those who break the Sabbath because it seems like a rather silly question. There is a definate difference between the law and the punishment for breaking the law. The law is “Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy.” Not keeping the Sabbath day Holy is a sin. The punishment for that sin was being stoned to death.

Jesus’ sacrifice is sufficient to atone for our sins.
Heb 9:28 - “So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”

actually no. its not a silly question. you are claiming the law is still in force. therefore, the penalties are still in force. if you are going to follow the law, you must follow the whole of the law, not cherry pick what is convenient for you. also saying not keeping the sabbath is a sin, again flies in the face of the apostle paul. who said one man esteems one day higher than another, one man does not. let each be convinced in his own mind. you would have had alot of trouble getting along with the apostles if you were alive at that time. they would have branded you a judiaizer. we are not required to keep, that which the apostles claimed they could not keep. so it really is not me you are in disagreement with. it is the apostles. but that is ok, i believe they will enlighten you, once you finally get to meet them. Peace

 

[benidict]

As Adventists we don’t believe we are the church Christ founded, we believe we are the remnant church that keeps God’s commandments and is called out of Babylon spoken about in Revelation 12:17; 14:6-12; 18:1-4. What is the Catholic view on these texts?

We’ve been debating the nature of the Sabbath for some time now and I believe that is the more important debate to have than the debate about the nature of the mark of the beast. The mark of the beast is certainly biblical (see Rev. 13: 16 - 17), Adventists believe the mark will be given to people who do not keep the Sabbath Holy. Rev. 14: 12 referring to those who do not worship the beast, its image or receive its mark says, “This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.”

Again, what is the Catholic view of the mark of the beast?

This doctrine refers to the scapegoat referred to in Leviticus 16:20. Adventists believe this scapegoat to represent Satan. Most Christians believe the scapegoat is Christ but there are good reasons to believe otherwise:
1 - The scapegoat was not slain as a sacrifice and therefore could not be used as a means of bringing forgiveness.
2 - The sanctuary was entirely cleansed by the blood of the Lord’s goat before the scapegoat was introduced into the ritual.
3 - Leviticus 16 treats the scapegoat as a personal being who is the opposite of, and opposed to, God.
This is all tied in with our understanding of the Sanctuary which is an excellent discussion to have.

These beliefs are based in the Bible. As stated before, there are obviously no SDA teachings prior to the 1800s as there was no Adventist Church but every belief of the Adventist Church is in the Bible. I know what you are implying by repeatedly saying that there are no “author who expounded Adventist teaching before the 1800s” but your question itself is misleading because we maintain that all our teachings are based in the Bible (which definately was written prior to the 1800s).

correction. your unique beliefs are based on E.G. Whites interpretation of the bible. not based on the BIBLE. i am familiar with the scapegoat found in leviticus. if you were correct. this teaching would have been found prior to 1800. it is not. nor is your version of the sanctuary cleansing. neither of your groups views on these two items has ever been held by any Christian group pre 1800. and yes. we have had Adventist state they are the Church founded by Christ, and that they can trace their beliefs back to that time. you however have been the most honest of anyone, and state that you believe you are the remnant Church. this makes more sense, and i applaud you for seeing this and recognizing it. so therefore my question was not misleading. i just wanted one of yall to admit it. you have done so, with my thanks. Peace to you and yours. im almost tempted to add you to my friends list.

 

[benidict]

BTW Ron, when you wrote this:

you are showing your SDA connections. That idea that it’s a transcript of Gods’ character is an ‘Ellinism’…it was written by E.G. White and you will not find that idea ever given credence anywhere in the Bible.

I wish you Gods’ peace, and much time for study!

this is interesting. i was tempted to state he was connected to SDA myself, but i was giving him the benifit of the doubt. so apparently im not the only one who was thinking this. Peace

 

[benidict]

Love the way you ended your speach lol cute, but no i’m not going to get into all this, it’s not aimed at arriving at truth but only debate.
I just love to read the SDA answers and learn the Bible from them, and ads is short for Adam, just thought i’d share.

you do see how i could get SDA from Ads though dont you? but believe it or not, we are aiming at arriving at truth. not for our SDA friends we are debating, but for all those out there who we will never hear from, and will never post. people are looking for the truth. we aim to give it to them. its no different from when i roll out under the wire. im a gunner. i always have an answer ready for anyone that would endanger myself, or my battle buds. it is the same thing here. i will defend the faith once delivered to the saints by Jesus Christ. i will not shirk my duty to defend that faith. people have died for this truth. it is the True Gospel. and wheather its Adventist, athiest, muslim whatever,attempting to lead people away from the Truth. i will take them on every time. to do any thing else would be the wrong answer. if i see someone heading for a cliff im going to warn them. if they dont listen, their blood is on their head. if i dont speak, then their blood is on mine. and im glad you liked the way i ended my speech. lol! i do try. Peace

 

[me_again]

The most disgusting false prophecy of Ellen G. White was when she promised the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ was coming in the lifetime of her followers**;** and she promised them that they would not die because they would be “translated” at His coming. Ellen’s prophecy failed, but some of the hard-headed Adventists blame her false prophecy on the inability of people to be “good enough” for the Lord to return to translate them.
CatholicLover;6924217:

No sources for any of this?

Mr. SDA CatholicLover, at your request, the sources are provided below.

In 1856, Ellen Gould White falsely predicted the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. She falsely predicted that her followers would not see death but, instead, would be translated at His coming. They are all dead now. Here are the exact words of the false prophetess Ellen Gould White**:**

“I [Ellen Gould White] was shown the company present at the conference. Said the angel, ‘Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus.’”

Reference**:** Testimonies For The [SDA] Church 1:131, 132 (1856)

All of Ellen White’s followers from her 1856 prediction are dead. She is a false prophetess. Ellen White is a nutjob who said and wrote bizarre things. Here’s another bizarre comment from the SDA false prophetess in the year 1876**:**

“It is really not wise to have children now. Time is short, the perils of the last days are upon us, and the little children will be largely swept off before this.”

Reference**:** [SDA] Letter 48, 1876

 

[loneviking]

I want to point out something important about the Sabbath that I haven’t seen mentioned yet.

The Sabbath came in with the rest of the Mosaic law at Sinai. This law was a covenant between God and the Jews. The gentiles were never a part of this law and the law didn’t apply to them. That’s part of the reason why this covenant was flawed and had to disappear in order for a new covenant to come in. Under the new covenant ALL (Jew, Gentile, free, slave, men/women…every man, woman and child) are covered by the terms, conditions and benefits.

The Jewish sabbath and the law under which they lived was not for us Gentiles!

 

[loneviking]

this is interesting. i was tempted to state he was connected to SDA myself, but i was giving him the benifit of the doubt. so apparently im not the only one who was thinking this. Peace

Hi Benedict! Yeah, the Ellenisms just keep showing up and for us formers they are a big, red flag as to the background of the poster!

Gods’ peace to you, brother.

 

[Javl]

I want to point out something important about the Sabbath that I haven’t seen mentioned yet.

The Sabbath came in with the rest of the Mosaic law at Sinai. This law was a covenant between God and the Jews. The gentiles were never a part of this law and the law didn’t apply to them. That’s part of the reason why this covenant was flawed and had to disappear in order for a new covenant to come in. Under the new covenant ALL (Jew, Gentile, free, slave, men/women…every man, woman and child) are covered by the terms, conditions and benefits.

The Jewish sabbath and the law under which they lived was not for us Gentiles!

Thank you for bringing that up again. I had posted it originally in the first part of this thread along with quotes from Jewish Rabbis and the SDA proving this. But, it was conveniently ignored by the SDA and RonThe Jew. They ignore and/or reject whatever does not fit their version of the truth in scripture.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

I guess what I’m trying to get at is who changed the Sabbath day and when was it changed?

I’m not going to debate Ellen White here and she shouldn’t be the focus of this discussion.

The Catholic Church changed it under the authority of Jesus Christ. And Ellen White should be the focus since all responses in these posts by the SDA reflect her teachings and writings.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[me_again]

Here’s another bizarre comment from the SDA false prophetess [Ellen G. White] in the year 1876**:**

“It is really not wise to have children now. Time is short, the perils of the last days are upon us, and the little children will be largely swept off before this.”

Reference**:** [SDA] Letter 48, 1876

Ellen White actually told people in 1876 that it was unwise to have children!

The devil hates it every time a baby is born in the image of God. :tsktsk:

Quoting bizarre statements from Ellen G. White is like a pig shoot! :nunchuk:

 

[me_again]

CatholicLover;6924217:

No sources for any of this?

Mr. SDA CatholicLover, at your request, the sources are provided below.

In 1856, Ellen Gould White falsely predicted the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. She falsely predicted that her followers would not see death but, instead, would be translated at His coming. They are all dead now. Here are the exact words of the false prophetess Ellen Gould White**:**

“I [Ellen Gould White] was shown the company present at the conference. Said the angel, ‘Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus.’”

Reference**:** Testimonies For The [SDA] Church 1:131, 132 (1856)

All of Ellen White’s followers from her 1856 prediction are dead. She is a false prophetess.

Mr. SDA CatholicLover, now that the source that you requested has been provided, what are you going to do with it?

 

[agent_grey]

Is there a more disgusting religion? I have been studying religions for a while and have come to the conclusion that the sda religion as an abomination. While I have great respect for sabbath keepers of all kinds I do have to say that the doctrine on sunday that the SDA cult teaches is a blasphemy of the holy spirit. It is kind of a false sabbath where the individual must separate from God on Sundays in order to avoid the mark of the beast.

Its really really sad. Because the mark of the beast is obviously the continued reception of symbolic communion(hand) or the rejection of the real presence as an evil thing(head). But things are what they are.

 

[CatholicLover]

actually no. its not a silly question. you are claiming the law is still in force. therefore, the penalties are still in force. if you are going to follow the law, you must follow the whole of the law, not cherry pick what is convenient for you. also saying not keeping the sabbath is a sin, again flies in the face of the apostle paul. who said one man esteems one day higher than another, one man does not. let each be convinced in his own mind. you would have had alot of trouble getting along with the apostles if you were alive at that time. they would have branded you a judiaizer. we are not required to keep, that which the apostles claimed they could not keep. so it really is not me you are in disagreement with. it is the apostles. but that is ok, i believe they will enlighten you, once you finally get to meet them. Peace

Paul never said not keeping the Sabbath was not a sin. He said don’t let anyone judge you for how you keep the Sabbaths.

Once again:

There is a definate difference between the law and the punishment for breaking the law. The law is “Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy.” Not keeping the Sabbath day Holy is a sin. The punishment for that sin was being stoned to death.

Jesus’ sacrifice is sufficient to atone for our sins.
Heb 9:28 - “So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”

 

[CatholicLover]

Mr. SDA CatholicLover, now that the source that you requested has been provided, what are you going to do with it?

This isn’t what I was referring to as I pointed out earlier. Thanks though.

 

[CatholicLover]

Ellen White actually told people in 1876 that it was unwise to have children!

The devil hates it every time a baby is born in the image of God. :tsktsk:

Quoting bizarre statements from Ellen G. White is like a pig shoot! :nunchuk:

I think you must read more of Ellen White than I do.

 

[CatholicLover]

Thank you for bringing that up again. I had posted it originally in the first part of this thread along with quotes from Jewish Rabbis and the SDA proving this. But, it was conveniently ignored by the SDA and RonThe Jew. They ignore and/or reject whatever does not fit their version of the truth in scripture.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

We did not ignore it, we just pointed out that it is not true. The Sabbath was created on the seventh day of creation. It was for everyone, God sanctified it and made it Holy.

 

[me_again]

Is there a more disgusting religion? I have been studying religions for a while and have come to the conclusion that the sda religion as an abomination.

The SDA and JW sects have been described as “parasitic Christian organizations” because they feed off of Catholic and Protestant churches, which is where their membership drives are focused. If Catholic and Protestant churches were do disappear, then so would SDA and JW sects.

On the one hand, the SDA theology calls the Catholic Church a whore and they call the Protestant churches apostates**;** but on the other hand, the SDAs attempt to parasitically feed off other churches to increase their own memberships.

 

[me_again]

Paul never said not keeping the [Saturday] Sabbath was not a sin.

So by default, you (SDA CatholicLover) are implying that the Apostle Paul said that not keeping the Saturday sabbath is a sin?

He [St. Paul] said don’t let anyone judge you for how you keep the Sabbaths.

Here is what the SDA prophetess [Ellen G. White] wrote in 1847 about not keeping the Saturday sabbath**:**

“I [Ellen White] saw all that ‘would not receive the mark of the Beast, and of his Image, in their foreheads or in their hands,’ could not buy or sell. I saw that the number (666) of the Image Beast was made up; and that it was the beast that changed the Sabbath, and the Image Beast had followed on after, and kept the Pope’s, and not God’s Sabbath. And all we were required to do, was to give up God’s Sabbath, and keep the Pope’s and then we should have the mark of the Beast, and of his Image.”