Info on SDA (continued)

[adrift]

The Bible only mentions one Archangel, Michael and we do not believe he is a created being. I understand that the book of Tobit identifies other Archangels but that isn’t in the Bible I read and I don’t recognise it as inspired scripture.

QUOTE]
But it is in the Bible just not your incomplete Bible.

Than there is this
Daniel 8:15-17
Which identifies Gabriel who is an Archangel.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

CatholicLover;6961982:

The Bible only mentions one Archangel, Michael and we do not believe he is a created being. I understand that the book of Tobit identifies other Archangels but that isn’t in the Bible I read and I don’t recognise it as inspired scripture.

QUOTE]
But it is in the Bible just not your incomplete Bible.

Than there is this
Daniel 8:15-17
Which identifies Gabriel who is an Archangel.

Dan8
15And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.
16And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.
17So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Doesn’t say Gabriel is an archangel.

 

[loneviking]

Wow, I go away for a little while and you guys have a good ole time bashing Adventists.

I want to put to rest the idea that the “Clear Word Bible” is and Adventist Bible. It certainly is not!

I believe it was written by an Adventist Pastor who exercised very poor judgement in the title of the book. I would go so far to say that it should no longer even be considered a Bible. The book is misleading and dangerous because it weaves Ellen White’s writings with the Bible text. The end result leaves it unclear as to where the Bible ends and Ellen White begins.

The General Conference of Seventh Day Adventists has spoken out against the book and it’s title. This is from the Adventist website:

*Do Adventists have their own edition of the Bible called the Clear Word?
While the Clear Word Bible is printed by an Adventist publishing house, it is not endorsed nor commissioned by the Seventh-day Adventist Church, but is the private enterprise of an individual.

The Adventist Church does not use the Clear Word edition, which includes passages from Ellen G. White’s writings, for its worship services and Bible studies around the world, but quotes from well known and well accepted Bible translations in the various languages. In the English language for example, the church uses the King James Version, the Revised Standard Version, the New American Bible, the New International Version, and others*

Not quite correct. The SDA church has distanced itself from The Clear Word as any sort of official publication. However, the book is sold in the Adventist Book Center (the official SDA store); published by an SDA printing business; advertised in the Adventist World (the magazine for the world church) and also in many of the division papers of the SDA church.

What the SDA church does is it has two faces. The one face that it shows to the public seems Evangelical, rational, Christian and most certainly not that of a cult. However, the other face are the organizations that are allowed and encouraged in their ministry within the church, many of which are very cultic. Check out Amazing Facts for just one example of many. If the SDA General Conference truly doesn’t approve of something, it will not be approved; it will not exist nor be used within the SDA church.

 

[loneviking]

It seems you know that study on diet very well

I think it’s worth pointing out two things about this:

First, Adventists do not believe that diet is in any way tied to salvation. The Adventist health message simply advises us to avoid certain foods to live a healthier life. The advice of the Adventist Church regarding diet has been widely recognised as sound practice and people who live by that diet have been documented to live a longer more vigorous life.

Second, take a look in your Bible at the decline in life spans from the time of Adam to after the flood. I don’t have my Bible with me right now but from memory, Adam lived 900+ years as did most of his line through Noah. Shortly after the flood those life spans diminished to a bit over 100 years. I’ll look it up later for the texts.

And I can do similar studies on every one of the 28 Fundamentals. It’s interesting that you don’t appear to be curious as to why I now reject this method of Bible study that I obviously once knew so well. You say that Adventists do not believe that diet** is in any way tied to salvation?
**

This quote is from Counsels on Diet and Foods:

1. Eating, drinking and dressing all have a direct bearing upon our spiritual advancement.

Counsels on Diet and Foods, P. 17, (a quote from 1890)

It is as truly a sin to violate the laws of our being as it is to break the ten commandments. To do either is to break God’s laws. Those who transgress the law of God in their physical organism, will be inclined to violate the law of God spoken from Sinai.

You do know, don’t you, that the SDA church has never repudiated the teachings in EGW’s books, including these? And if you are a member of the SDA church either by profession of faith or by baptism, then you agreed to the following regarding EG White:

1. The Gift of Prophecy:
   One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord’s messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction.

The SDA church does teach, implicitly and sometimes explicitly that salvation IS tied to diet and their version of ‘health reform’.

 

[loneviking]

loneviking:

Here are a couple of questions for you, if you find time to answer.

* #1: What is your assessment of Ellen White??? Do you think she was:
  - mentally ill?
  - possessed or oppressed?
  - inspired?
  .
  She made some pretty nutty comments. However, there are some SDAs who claim she's God's last day prophetess before the return of Jesus. On the one hand, she points to Jesus, but on the other hand, she made some false prophecies and she claimed that some heresies were from the Lord (and that can't be true). She also led many people down various paths of lies and heresies. What is your honest assessment of Ellen White?

Let me begin with a short answer to your question. You wrote that

'On the one hand, she points to Jesus, but on the other hand, she made some false prophecies and she claimed that some heresies were from the Lord (and that can’t be true). She also led many people down various paths of lies and heresies

The false or unfulfilled prophecies, along with the heresies (many of which were claimed to have originated in a dream or vision), are enough for any Christian to say that she was a false prophet. There is nothing to fear from ignoring what she wrote and taught.

“When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously; thou shalt not be afraid of him.” (Deut. 18:22)

As for whether she was mentally ill, possessed or inspired, this is a link to an article on a form of epilepsy called ‘partial complex seizures’ by a non-SDA doctor:

nonegw.org/egw79.shtml

I personally think the doctor is right. EGW was hit in the head at the age of 9 by a rock and was ill for months. Up to that time, she had been a bright child who loved to go to school, with dreams of becoming a scholar. It only makes sense that when the seizures began and the compulsion to write came along with them that someone who already has the inclination to be a scholar would begin to write prolifically.

EGW, along with the other founders of the SDA church, had been a part of Wm. Millers ‘Millerite’ movement, which actually ran from about 1838 to 1844. These Millerites had several years of indoctrination into Wm Millers unique form of Biblical study—an example of which I posted above. He read presuppositions into texts and strung proof texts together on assumptions that really didn’t make much sense to a careful student of the Bible.

Many of these Millerites were members of Methodist and Congregationalist churches (EGW was from a Methodist family), and some of the pastors tried very hard to get these folks to see that what they were believing and teaching was error. Most of the Millerites refused to recant and these churches removed their names from membership.

You can see the animosity (and pain) that this caused just by reading EGW’s writings that condemn every one of the Sunday keeping churches; by the insistence on the observance of the Jewish Sabbath; by the teaching that observing Sunday would be the mark of the beast…etc. All the way up until the 1970’s, SDA’s kept pretty much to themselves and would have little or nothing to do with the rest of Christianity.

So, you have an ill, young woman who along with a group of other theological misfits has been kicked out of their congregations; none of this group had any formal, theological training; and all had been indoctrinated into the totally non-sensical method of Bible study taught by William Miller.

Thanks to the visions of EGW giving this group an imprimateur of theological correctness straight from God, the group became a church and began to grow. That, in a nutshell, is the story of the SDA church and EGW. It’s no accident that EGW was often referred to as ‘Mother White’.

Was she inspired? No, I can’t believe that. Neither do I believe that she was demon possessed or engaging in occultic practices. Every cult or sect that I have seen that does these practices always has both aberrent sexual practices and violence. The Mormons are a good example of this with polygamy, celestial marriages and blood atonement. Sure, EGW wrote a lot of extremely embarrasing stuff on sex and the ‘M’ word, but those really aren’t aberrent practices and she never writes in support of any such practices. Ditto for violence–you won’t find an SDA equivalent to the Danites.

EGW, like all sinful persons, sure had her faults. She was often cold and even cruel in her 'testimonies to others and she didn’t always follow her own counsels. But she didn’t use her visions to get rich, and from what I’ve read, she seems to have truly believed in the basic doctrines that she taught and tried to live as Christian a life as one can when one has a theology built around working your way to heaven.

I hope this explanation helps…

 

[benidict]

Adventists are strongly Trinitarian. Adventists and Catholics obviously have a difference in beliefs regarding the nature of Michael the archangel.

Please correct me if I’m wrong but Catholics believe that an archangel is a ‘class’ of angel and that there are more than one. The Bible only mentions one Archangel, Michael and we do not believe he is a created being. I understand that the book of Tobit identifies other Archangels but that isn’t in the Bible I read and I don’t recognise it as inspired scripture.

There are many places in the Bible that God identifies Himself as “the Angel of the Lord”.
In Genesis 16 with “the Angel of the Lord” speaks to Hagar and is later identified as “the God who sees me”
When God appeared to Moses in Exodus 3 as a burning bush it says “There the angel of the LORD appeared to him”. Later in vs. 6 he says, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.”

So it’s clear to me that the Bible refers to God as “the Angel of the Lord” in places.

In 1 Th 4:16 Paul says, “The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first”. So the Archangel’s voice will cause the “dead in Christ to rise first”.
John 5:25 in Christ says, “The hour is coming when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God”. Identifying the “voice of the Son of God” as the voice that causes the dead to rise.

These two passages equate the voice of the Archangel with the voice of the Son of God.

That’s the short version of it. I’m sure I could dig up more scriptural references if needed. I’m interested in your thoughts on the topic though.

then please tell me, how did Christ have the authority to denounce satan in the desert, but michael did not, when disputing over the body of moses? they cannot be the same being. Peace

 

[CatholicLover]

Those who were born before the flood had extraordinary lifespans, while those born after the flood had significantly shortened lifespans. It is speculated that it had something to do with the global atmospheric pressure (similar to a hyperbaric chamber on a global scale before the flood), along with the heavenly vapors being removed (which allows in more destructive kinds of sun-rays). It had nothing to do with the Adventist theory about the introduction of meat to the diet of post-deleuvian people.

I’d be interested i reading any research you might be able to point me to regarding atmospheric pressure around the time of the flood. I think there may be more evidence linking the change in life span to diet than there is to atmospheric pressure.

 

[benidict]

It seems you know that study on diet very well

I think it’s worth pointing out two things about this:

First, Adventists do not believe that diet is in any way tied to salvation. The Adventist health message simply advises us to avoid certain foods to live a healthier life. The advice of the Adventist Church regarding diet has been widely recognised as sound practice and people who live by that diet have been documented to live a longer more vigorous life.

Second, take a look in your Bible at the decline in life spans from the time of Adam to after the flood. I don’t have my Bible with me right now but from memory, Adam lived 900+ years as did most of his line through Noah. Shortly after the flood those life spans diminished to a bit over 100 years. I’ll look it up later for the texts.

well that is interesting. when taking on the Adventist about diet, in other threads, they certainly tied diet to salvation, and the last judgement! i believe they pointed out some verses in isaiah…im sure one of my partners in crime can find the postings. they were pretty clear. Peace one thing is for sure though my friend. you are in disagreement on several topics with your fellow Adventist. im not faulting you for this, im applauding you. you seem to be the most humble, and honest Adventist we have here. im sure javl, and me again would agree with this. Peace and prayers for you.

 

[benidict]

A little Catholic book on the Sabbath…
amazon.com/dp/B0036OS9IC

thank you. i appreciate this very much. peace

 

[benidict]

They are here. They are watching. :yup: They are reading. :sad_bye:

and for that my fellow warrior, i am greatful! Peace

 

[CatholicLover]

Pointing out SDA heresies on a Catholic forum isn’t bashing.

The Adventists keep coming back for more.

You will find the ritualism, history and theology of Catholicism to be quite sweet**;** it is as the incense of prayers of the Saints that are wafting up to the throne of God. It is thoroughly understood why the Adventists are spiritually drawn to it.

I don’t come back for bashing, I come back for the debate. I enjoy the debate as long as it remains civil.

 

[loneviking]

Me again asked:

#2: Do you believe in the SDA doctrine of soul sleep? Why or why not?

No, I don’t believe in soul sleep. The ‘texts’ that SDA’s rely heavily on for this idea come from the Old Testament. Texts such as Psalms 115:17

‘The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence’.

or Psalms 6:5

For in death there is no remembrance of thee; in the grave who shall give thee thanks.

Eccl. 9:5

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward;

The problem with relying on these texts is that Christ taught that there is an afterlife. Look again at the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16. SDA’s would have you believe that this is just a parable, that the details can’t be taken literally-----but ask yourself, ‘would God lie? Even in a parable?’. That’s something I can’t accept. Jesus, while here on Earth, was teaching us that there is an eternal soul that goes on.

1 Peter 3:19, and 4:6 claims that Christ, after His death, preached to the spirits in prison:

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

This is where the phrase ‘He descended into hell’ in the Apostles Creed came from.

You have recorded in Matt. 27:52,53 the resurrection of many saints on the same morning Jesus rose from the dead.

And Rev. 1:18 in which Christ claims the keys of hell and death.

The New Testament is authoritative over the OT in this issue both because of Christs’ teaching, and the evidence that the death of Christ brought about some type of change in the afterlife. So, when the Apostle Paul writes in 2 Cor. 5:6-8:

Therefore we are always confident, knowing that whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (for we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

we can accept this as the truth. Paul writes in Phillipians 1:23:

For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ: which is far better.

Obviously, Paul believed his soul would go to be with Christ upon his death. Paul wrote in 2 Cor. 5:1-4 that

‘if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissoved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens’

This is probably what Peter was referring to in 2 Peter 1:14

‘knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.’

There are a lot of other texts in the New Testament that confirm a living soul that returns to God. In Revelation, you have the souls under the altar asking ‘how long, O Lord’.

With study, texts like John 3:16 even promise this as ‘whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but** have **everlasting life’.

That word have, in Greek, is present and possessory. Eternal life is something that the believer now has, and if you die without an eternal soul then the verse simply isn’t true.

So, yes, based on the teachings of Christ and the apostles in the New Testament, I do believe in an eternal soul and reject the teaching of soul sleep.

 

[CatholicLover]

Not quite correct. The SDA church has distanced itself from The Clear Word as any sort of official publication. However, the book is sold in the Adventist Book Center (the official SDA store); published by an SDA printing business; advertised in the Adventist World (the magazine for the world church) and also in many of the division papers of the SDA church.

What wasn’t correct about what I posted? I posted only fact.

Capitalism is what it is, the book is being sold and advertised by the person who wrote it (or, more accurately compiled it). You know as well as I that it is not an Adventist Bible, any assertion by you to the contrary can only mean you are deliberately trying to be misleading.

What the SDA church does is it has two faces. The one face that it shows to the public seems Evangelical, rational, Christian and most certainly not that of a cult. However, the other face are the organizations that are allowed and encouraged in their ministry within the church, many of which are very cultic. Check out Amazing Facts for just one example of many. If the SDA General Conference truly doesn’t approve of something, it will not be approved; it will not exist nor be used within the SDA church.

Amazing Facts is often named when people want to criticize the Adventist Church but to my knowledge they have not published anything that is false. I’m interested to know what you find offensive about Amazing Facts?

 

[CatholicLover]

And I can do similar studies on every one of the 28 Fundamentals. It’s interesting that you don’t appear to be curious as to why I now reject this method of Bible study that I obviously once knew so well. You say that Adventists do not believe that diet** is in any way tied to salvation?
**

This quote is from Counsels on Diet and Foods:

Counsels on Diet and Foods, P. 17, (a quote from 1890)

You do know, don’t you, that the SDA church has never repudiated the teachings in EGW’s books, including these? And if you are a member of the SDA church either by profession of faith or by baptism, then you agreed to the following regarding EG White:

The SDA church does teach, implicitly and sometimes explicitly that salvation IS tied to diet and their version of ‘health reform’.

Her point in those quotes is that “those who transgress the law of God in their physical organism, will be inclined to violate the law of God”. Ellen White does not say that those who eat unclean foods will not go to heaven, just that they will be more likely to violate God’s Commandments.

Nowhere does the Adventist Church teach that a persons diet will keep him out of heaven.

 

[CatholicLover]

It’s interesting that you don’t appear to be curious as to why I now reject this method of Bible study that I obviously once knew so well.

I didn’t think it was relevant to the discussion but since you bring it up, I would like to know.

 

[Javl]

Adventists are strongly Trinitarian. Adventists and Catholics obviously have a difference in beliefs regarding the nature of Michael the archangel.

Please correct me if I’m wrong but Catholics believe that an archangel is a ‘class’ of angel and that there are more than one. The Bible only mentions one Archangel, Michael and we do not believe he is a created being. I understand that the book of Tobit identifies other Archangels but that isn’t in the Bible I read and I don’t recognise it as inspired scripture.

There are different choirs of angels listed in scripture, such as angels, archangels, cherubim, seraphim, etc. All are created beings. Since Michael is an archangel, he is a created being. Besides Michael, there’s the archangel Gabriel ( Daniel 8 ), Raphael, Oriel, and others that appear in Judaic theological writings. Now if Michael is/was not created then he must be from the beginning divine, and a part of the Godhead, or God. Then if Michael is part of the Godhead it is logical and reasonable to assume that the other archangels are too. No where in scripture does it say that Jesus is Michael or that Michael was not created. Whether or not you believe or recognize this, it is fact and truth!

There are many places in the Bible that God identifies Himself as “the Angel of the Lord”.
In Genesis 16 with “the Angel of the Lord” speaks to Hagar and is later identified as “the God who sees me”
When God appeared to Moses in Exodus 3 as a burning bush it says “There the angel of the LORD appeared to him”. Later in vs. 6 he says, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.”

The Jews, from the time the law was given to them by Moses up until today’s Orthodox, have always used the term “The angel of the Lord” to signify God Himself. This term is used so as to not violate the second commandent. Others Jews, ( Conservative, Reform ) use either YHWH or G-d. To signify an angel, all use the term “an angel of the Lord”.

So it’s clear to me that the Bible refers to God as “the Angel of the Lord” in places.

Only if you know the term and why and how it is used.

In 1 Th 4:16 Paul says, “The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first”. So the Archangel’s voice will cause the “dead in Christ to rise first”.
John 5:25 in Christ says, “The hour is coming when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God”. Identifying the “voice of the Son of God” as the voice that causes the dead to rise.

These two passages equate the voice of the Archangel with the voice of the Son of God.

That’s the short version of it. I’m sure I could dig up more scriptural references if needed. I’m interested in your thoughts on the topic though.

Sorry to say, but you are equating and confusing analgous scriptural statements with actualities. As for scriptural statements, there are many that say otherwise. I would recommend that you use a good Biblical concordance ( Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox ) that explain and define all scriptural passages for a better understanding. I do.
Shalom haMeshiach.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

Those who were born before the flood had extraordinary lifespans, while those born after the flood had significantly shortened lifespans. It is speculated that it had something to do with the global atmospheric pressure (similar to a hyperbaric chamber on a global scale before the flood), along with the heavenly vapors being removed (which allows in more destructive kinds of sun-rays). It had nothing to do with the Adventist theory about the introduction of meat to the diet of post-deleuvian people.

One of the later theories concerning the “long life span” before the flood is that the recogning of time was a bit different. In the area of the near east there is/was no four seasons as we know it and the year may have been recorded to be about 3 months long. Also, there is reason to believe that the length of life in those days was exaggerated to show the faithful followers that these ancients they were pleasing to God. This may be possible since there are no contemporary records showing that there was a long life in those days.

These are theories and conjecture.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

Me again asked:

No, I don’t believe in soul sleep. The ‘texts’ that SDA’s rely heavily on for this idea come from the Old Testament. Texts such as Psalms 115:17

or Psalms 6:5

Eccl. 9:5

The problem with relying on these texts is that Christ taught that there is an afterlife. Look again at the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16. SDA’s would have you believe that this is just a parable, that the details can’t be taken literally-----but ask yourself, ‘would God lie? Even in a parable?’. That’s something I can’t accept. Jesus, while here on Earth, was teaching us that there is an eternal soul that goes on.

1 Peter 3:19, and 4:6 claims that Christ, after His death, preached to the spirits in prison:

This is where the phrase ‘He descended into hell’ in the Apostles Creed came from.

You have recorded in Matt. 27:52,53 the resurrection of many saints on the same morning Jesus rose from the dead.

And Rev. 1:18 in which Christ claims the keys of hell and death.

The New Testament is authoritative over the OT in this issue both because of Christs’ teaching, and the evidence that the death of Christ brought about some type of change in the afterlife. So, when the Apostle Paul writes in 2 Cor. 5:6-8:

we can accept this as the truth. Paul writes in Phillipians 1:23:

Obviously, Paul believed his soul would go to be with Christ upon his death. Paul wrote in 2 Cor. 5:1-4 that

This is probably what Peter was referring to in 2 Peter 1:14

There are a lot of other texts in the New Testament that confirm a living soul that returns to God. In Revelation, you have the souls under the altar asking ‘how long, O Lord’.

With study, texts like John 3:16 even promise this as ‘whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but** have **everlasting life’.

That word have, in Greek, is present and possessory. Eternal life is something that the believer now has, and if you die without an eternal soul then the verse simply isn’t true.

So, yes, based on the teachings of Christ and the apostles in the New Testament, I do believe in an eternal soul and reject the teaching of soul sleep.

Just one question. If the SDA is in error concerning “soul sleep”, couldn’t it be in error in other of its "teachings? Do you believe them all? Shalom haMeshiach

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

Amazing Facts is often named when people want to criticize the Adventist Church but to my knowledge*** they have not published anything that is false.*** I’m interested to know what you find offensive about Amazing Facts?/QUOTE

They have published many falsehoods, especially about the Catholic Church!!!

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[CatholicLover]

Amazing Facts is often named when people want to criticize the Adventist Church but to my knowledge*** they have not published anything that is false.***