Information on Ian Paisely

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Hi,

A protestant friend send we a link to sermons from some old preachers at this website:
sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=10734

He listed the following list of preachers: Ian Paisley, Leonard Ravenhill, Paris Reidhead, Duncan Campbell, A.W. Tozer, T. Austin Sparks.

The Ian Paisely I have heard of is the one from Northen Ireland who from what I know is a vicous racist, anti-catholic and perhaps a murderer. Is there another preacher of this same name.

Is this a collection of preachers from the underbelly of Protestantism or are they decent men.

I am a little worried that my friend might be trolling for some of the vicous preachers of old.

God bless
 
The Ian Paisely I have heard of is the one from Northen Ireland who from what I know is a vicous racist, anti-catholic and perhaps a murderer. Is there another preacher of this same name…

I’m no fan of Paisley, but I think this is a BIT harsh. I know folk who go to his Church. He’s hellfire and brimstone, he strongly lambasts the Catholic church (and virtually all Protestant churches, if that’s any comfort!). I’d have huge doubts about his theology. However, he is an excellent MP and works tirelessly for his Protestant and Catholic constituents alike. And the future of Northern Ireland very much rests on his shoulders right now, so he needs us to be praying for him, whatever we think of him.

Tozer is an excellent writer. Very Conservative, but solid. His ‘Knowledge of the Holy’ is an excellent read, and has some incredibly good foundational stuff on the nature of God. I’ve read him, and while I haven’t always agreed with him, I’ve never found him to be offensive.
 
There’s Ian and theres Ian junior.

Here, this website speaks highly of him,:ehh: and even if you don’t like the source, believe me I know it’s true, I lived through it and heard his hate filled speeches first hand.

But we have to move on, he’s old news and he won’t go on forever, the young are the future now, and the old is on it’s way out, and good riddance.

Don’t take my word for it, Martina Purdy who I think is from the USA has been a political correspondent on Irish affairs for years, well she does have an American accent.
 
Hi,

A protestant friend send we a link to sermons from some old preachers at this website:
sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=10734

He listed the following list of preachers: Ian Paisley, Leonard Ravenhill, Paris Reidhead, Duncan Campbell, A.W. Tozer, T. Austin Sparks.
I don’t know Paris Reidhead. Here’s some brief info on the others:

Ian Paisley is a highly political, ultra-conservative Northern Irish Presbyterian. He has his own paramilitary force from what I understand and hates Catholicism with a passion. He thinks Billy Graham is a complete sell-out. He disrupted a meeting of the European Parliament by standing up with a sign saying “John Paul II is the Antichrist” (and was beaten and kicked out by another MP who is descended from the Hapsburg dynasty!). He’s certainly a fire-breather. I don’t think he is personally a bad man (granted there are very few people of whom I’m willing to make that judgment), but he is certainly about as ideologically anti-Catholic as you can get and he has no problem mixing politics and even armed struggle with his religion. He’s a powerful preacher but from my perspective doesn’t get beyond fundamentalist Protestant rhetoric. I have heard him on the radio and have not found him to be spiritually uplifting.

Leonard Ravenhill was a “Holiness” preacher from Britain (Nazarene originally, I believe) who came to America and wound up associating mostly with Charismatics (though oddly enough I don’t think he ever became one). The story my family told about him is that he spoke at a very conservative Holiness Bible college (God’s Bible School in Cincinnati) and criticized them for their double standards–for instance, they have a strict dress code to avoid being “worldly” but have no problems having large fancy houses, etc. So he wound up getting shut out of his own tradition to a great extent. His most famous book is *Why Revival Tarries, *which is very popular among fundamentalists (particularly the more spiritually hungry and less smug fundamentalists). I prefer some of his other, later writings which are less strident (WRT denounces Catholicism, among other things). He had a mystical streak and was primarily concerned to denounce conservative, fundamentalist Protestants who were content with “dead orthodoxy” and whose religion consisted of complacent platitudes rather than living faith. I have a lot of issues with many of his views, but from what I know about him I think he was a truly holy man. My grandmother corresponded with him during his last years and continued contact with his wife and son after his death. In fact, my family’s small publishing company produced a collection of his essays and poems posthumously, and I did a lot of the editing work on this book.

Duncan Campbell was associated with a revival in the Hebrides. I heard his name a lot growing up but don’t know a lot about him–I got the impression that my grandmother thought he got a bit full of himself and took too much credit for the revival, but I don’t know on what she based this (she could be very censorious on very slender grounds).
 
A. W. Tozer is one of the greatest conservative-evangelical/fundamentalist writers of the 20th century. He was a minister in the Christian and Missionary Alliance–largely self-educated and read extremely widely. I won’t claim that he was free of anti-Catholicism, but he loved the Church Fathers and the medieval mystics–he once declared, hyperbolically, that he didn’t like any writers after Bernard of Clairvaux, but he was also very fond of Julian of Norwich. He also edited a *Christian Book of Mystical *Verse that includes a number of Catholic poems, including many by F. W. Faber, a convert from Anglicanism and friend of Newman. He has perhaps done more to mediate Christian tradition to conservative evangelicals than any other person. *The Knowledge of the Holy *is based largely on the work of Anselm and Augustine, especially *De Trinitate. *His book *The Pursuit of God *is one of the great 20th-century evangelical devotional classics. Tozer is the biggest counter-example (or perhaps the exception that proves the rule!) to the claim that modern evangelicalism isn’t capable of great depth. Ravenhill was in some respects a successor to Tozer but was not of nearly the same stature (for one thing, he was much more anti-Catholic and generally narrow-minded).

T. Austin Sparks was a Baptist minister in England who left the Baptists and started his own non-denominational “fellowship,” with no membership rolls (i.e., open to all believers). He believed that in so doing he was contributing to Christian unity–I remember having a huge argument about this with my grandmother around the time I started really questioning the “just Christian” approach to Christian unity. I argued that it was ironic and self-defeating to start yet another group in the name of unity, and of course I still think this–but his intentions were good.

I would say, in summary, that Paisley is the only one of these figures (leaving out Reidhead about whom I know nothing) who could be called “vicious,” though Tozer’s the only one who is likely to be in any way congenial to Catholics. Tozer, Ravenhill, and Austin Sparks were from what I can discern truly holy men with a great deal of piety and wisdom, however much one might disagree with them. Campbell I don’t know a lot about and Paisley is IMHO a sincere fanatic.

In Christ,

Edwin
 
Ian Paisley is a very old man who sang songs about boiling the Pope in oil.
As far as I know he only ever said one funny thing.
While he was shouting at a large group of his minions his mobile phone rang.
" Well… ", he said, taking out his ringing phone, “…I can tell you who it is’nt… …It is’nt the Pope!”
 
Ian Paisley is a very old man who sang songs about boiling the Pope in oil.
As far as I know he only ever said one funny thing.
While he was shouting at a large group of his minions his mobile phone rang.
" Well… ", he said, taking out his ringing phone, “…I can tell you who it is’nt… …It is’nt the Pope!”
Beyond question, Paisley’s a natural death-squad leader who’d have made people forget Milosevic and the Rwandan Hutus if political circumstances had been right. Nevertheless, he had one other priceless line that I’ll always treasure. A few decades back, at one of those innumerable Northern Ireland cease-fire conferences, some unctuous British-government bureaucrat decided that a good dose of pablum might soothe the hard feelings between the Catholic and Protestant representatives, and he offered up “After all, sir, we’re all the children of God, aren’t we?”

“No, sir,” Paisley thundered back. “We are the children of WRATH!”

Picturing the scene, I can almost love the man for a fugitive second.
 
Beyond question, Paisley’s a natural death-squad leader who’d have made people forget Milosevic and the Rwandan Hutus if political circumstances had been right.
I suppose I should just let this pass on the grounds that generally when people say that something is “beyond question” it’s a sign that it’s very much open to question. . . .

But your statement is not “beyond question” at all. Speculating on what people would do given the chance (unless they have clearly declared their intention to do it) is both foolish and uncharitable.

In our society we assume that religion is the sort of thing that should never be fought for. Paisley is, in this respect, a more traditional Catholic than most Catholics. That does not make him a cruel or evil man. He simply holds to a more old-fashioned understanding than most of us both of the relationship between religion and politics and of the depth of the chasm that separates Protestants and Catholics.

Edwin
 
Ian Paisley is a highly political, ultra-conservative Northern Irish Presbyterian. He has his own paramilitary force from what I understand and hates Catholicism with a passion.
a) Paisley is NOT a Northern Irish Presbyterian. He founded his own church - the Free Presbyterian Church, which regards the ‘official’ presbyterian Church in Ireland (the Presbyterian Church in Ireland) as terribly liberal, and as problematic as Catholicism. It is a pet hate of the PCI (a conservative, but very good and decent bunch of people) to be equated with Paisley. Paisley did not train, nor was he ever ordained a presbyterian minister.

b) He does NOT have his own paramilitary force. Officially he has always denied paramilitary linkages. He does, I’ve no doubt, have linkages, and does, I’m sure, exert a fair degree of influence. But if fairness to the man, I don’t think he’d ever advocate the murder of innocents. Not that he’s any saint but it’s unfair to make those kind of claims if they’re not substantiated.

I’m Northern Irish. Accuracy is important here. We need the truth, not rhetoric, for only the truth will set us free.
 
I lived in Ireland and watched Ian Paisley’s antics for years. This guy is an extremist of the worst kind…it’s his way or the highway. He is an obstructionist of the worst kind. No matter what he says from the pulpit…his actions are completely hateful. The guy is a raving, rabid, flying moonbat.

Iowa Mike
 
Thanks for the informative responses. I live in the US so I understand partially the conflicts in northern Ireland and feel badly for both sides about the violence of the past. I just did not know if Ian Paisely was a Jack Chick or a man of violence. From some of the quotes I have seen from him in the news he sounds like a hate monger, but may appear to be just a Jack Chick. I guess we have to be grateful to live in the US where we can discuss our differences in a lively matter but not seek out to hurt one another.

God bless all.
 
I suppose I should just let this pass on the grounds that generally when people say that something is “beyond question” it’s a sign that it’s very much open to question. . . .

But your statement is not “beyond question” at all. Speculating on what people would do given the chance (unless they have clearly declared their intention to do it) is both foolish and uncharitable.
Fair enough. I’ll retract the “beyond question,” and leave it to members of the list to do their own research on what Paisley’s done within the possibilities open to him. Indeed we can’t know what he would have done in another time and place; in future, I’ll simply limit myself to silent gratitude that we’ll never know.
In our society we assume that religion is the sort of thing that should never be fought for. Paisley is, in this respect, a more traditional Catholic than most Catholics. That does not make him a cruel or evil man. He simply holds to a more old-fashioned understanding than most of us both of the relationship between religion and politics and of the depth of the chasm that separates Protestants and Catholics.

Edwin
At the risk of lapsing back into foolishness and uncharitability, I’d submit that replacing “Protestants” with “Muslims” in that paragraph would serve as an equally convincing apologia for every wingnut Islamist imam from Mecca to Finsbury Park. I don’t recall saying that the traits you cite make of their possessors wicked men. Unfortunately, neither do they appear to negate the possibility of wickedness in their possessors.
 
a) Paisley is NOT a Northern Irish Presbyterian. He founded his own church - the Free Presbyterian Church, which regards the ‘official’ presbyterian Church in Ireland (the Presbyterian Church in Ireland) as terribly liberal, and as problematic as Catholicism. It is a pet hate of the PCI (a conservative, but very good and decent bunch of people) to be equated with Paisley.
“Presbyterian” can refer to a number of denominations. I understand why the phrase “Northern Irish Presbyterian” could be understood as a reference to the PCI, but that was not what I meant. However, if the wikipedia article is correct, then you’re at least partially right–Paisley appears to have been a Baptist by origin and never to have been a member of a Presbyterian church before founding the Free Presbyterians. Still, he identifies himself as a Presbyterian, so I stand by my characterization until someone can give me evidence that his churches are governed by non-Presbyterian methods or that he rejects infant baptism (church government and baptism are the two most obvious ways in which Calvinistic Baptists differ from Presbyterians).
Paisley did not train, nor was he ever ordained a presbyterian minister.
If wikipedia is correct, he did attend a “Reformed Presbyterian” seminary for a year. He was apparently ordained by members of several different denominations but wikipedia doesn’t say which ones.

Thanks for clarifying my overly broad characterization. He does appear to be more marginally related to Presbyterianism than I had realized (I had always assumed that he split from the PCI).
b) He does NOT have his own paramilitary force. Officially he has always denied paramilitary linkages. He does, I’ve no doubt, have linkages, and does, I’m sure, exert a fair degree of influence. But if fairness to the man, I don’t think he’d ever advocate the murder of innocents. Not that he’s any saint but it’s unfair to make those kind of claims if they’re not substantiated.
Fair enough. I should not have made that claim, since I am unsure of my sources. I was told by my parents and grandparents as a child that some reporter had allegedly been blindfolded and taken by Paisley up to the moors and shown an armed force waiting to do Paisley’s bidding. I ought to have questioned this story more thoroughly! (BTW, the story would have dated from the 70s, which is when my folks had more ties with Northern Ireland. A Northern Irish policeman lived in our house in England for several years after surviving an IRA ambush, and a farmer of our acquaintance–whose house I remember visiting–was blown up by a bomb while checking his fences. I actually lived in Northern Ireland for a few months in the winter of 1980-81, when I was six years old, but I have not been back since.)

Finally, I was not claiming that he would advocate the murder of innocents–one can of course engage in paramilitary action without killing noncombatants, though it’s hard to do this in practice!

I appreciate your concern for truth and accuracy.

Edwin
 
originally posted by maximus
I guess we have to be grateful to live in the US where we can discuss our differences in a lively matter but not seek out to hurt one another.
off subject but…
We live in a country that kills babies whereas Ireland(not Northern Ireland) does not.
 
Forum shut down for maintenance before I could add…

I have no idea who these leaders are so could you post roughly what age they are (just generally)so I can understand better what is happening in Ireland. Is this the next generation of leaders coming up?
 
Forum shut down for maintenance before I could add…

I have no idea who these leaders are so could you post roughly what age they are (just generally)so I can understand better what is happening in Ireland. Is this the next generation of leaders coming up?
Except for Paisley, the people mentioned in the OP were not Irish. Well, I don’t know about Reidhead, but Tozer was American, Sparks and Ravenhill were English (Ravenhill spent much of his life in the U.S.), and Campbell was a Scot.

Paisley is getting on in years–he was no spring chicken when I first heard of him 25+ years ago! The other four I just mentioned are all dead.

Edwin
 
Fair enough. I should not have made that claim, since I am unsure of my sources. I was told by my parents and grandparents as a child that some reporter had allegedly been blindfolded and taken by Paisley up to the moors and shown an armed force waiting to do Paisley’s bidding. I ought to have questioned this story more thoroughly! (BTW, the story would have dated from the 70s, which is when my folks had more ties with Northern Ireland.
You aren’t that far off the mark.

Friday 6 February 1981
‘Firearm Certificates Protest’
Ian Paisley, then leader of the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP), led a group of 500 men up a hillside in County Antrim at night. Those taking part in the gathering were photographed holding firearms certificates above their head. [Firearm certificates are issued by the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) to those people who possess legally held firearms. The implication of the demonstration was that those taking part could as easily have been holding their weapons above their head.]


Source

**While the DUP leader has condemned violence, republican and loyalist, he has been criticised for his own involvement with shadowy groups.

In 1981, he appeared on a hillside in the dead of night with 500 men brandishing firearms licenses and later had a brief dalliance with Ulster Resistance - both of which had more than a whiff of paramilitary sulphur about them… **

Source

Ian Paisley’s rantings.org— he certainley has a problem with Rome, but you know, the job pays good money.
 
Oooh. I know someone from Ireland (he’s Catholic) and anytime Paisely’s name comes up his hair stands on end.
 
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