Informing others of Right and Wrong...

  • Thread starter Thread starter passer_by
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
P

passer_by

Guest
Hi there,

So this has been a question I have been pondering.

For someone to commit a mortal sin, I understand that three conditions must be met

(1) Object is a grave matter
(2) Full knowledge
(3) Deliberate Consent

Now the questions I want to ask is, there are matters such as Homosexuality, Contraception, Pre-marital sex which many seem to be unaware that they are immoral activities. Is it right to inform them and try to show that they are doing something immoral?

But then by informing them that these actions are indeed immoral, are we not making it more easier for them to loose salvation? Because prior to informing, it would appear that they were not committing a mortal sin through their actions since they do not meet conditions (2) and (3).

So it seems like the best thing to do is inform as least amount of people as possible that these things are mortal sin so that they won’t loose salvation. That seems unacceptable. Teachings do call us to correct our brothers and sisters when they go astray.

The only way out of this dilemma seem to be to say “well they know that the actions they perform are immoral and grave matters” but I am not so sure that is true when it comes to some people who use contraception for an example. They honestly seem to think they are doing nothing wrong and some even think they are doing good.

Therefore, how does one resolve this dilemma? Or does one point out that this is a false dilemma?
 
Sacred Scripture is pretty clear on the issue:
So thou, O son of man, I have made thee a watchman to the house of Israel: therefore thou shalt hear the word from my mouth, and shalt tell it them from me. When I say to the wicked: O wicked man, thou shalt surely die: if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked man from his way: that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but I will require his blood at thy hand. But if thou tell the wicked man, that he may be converted from his ways, and he be not converted from his way: he shall die in his iniquity: but thou hast delivered thy soul.
Click to expand...

Not telling them is not only dangerous to their soul but to our own.
 
The Church teaches that it is a work of spiritual mercy to reprove the sinner.

Statistics say that married Catholics who do not follow their Church’s teaching on contraception have the same divorce rate as the general public, over 50%. Catholics who obey the Church have a divorce rate of 2%.

It does not matter what those who disobey the Church think. There are consequences to immoral actions, whether or not you understand morality properly.

Ignorance is not bliss.

If you do not believe cigarette smoking causes cancer your ignorance does not keep you from dying.

Invincible ignorance may make a person not culpable for sin. How would you know if someone practicing artificial contraception is doing so in invincible ignorance? Surely the vast majority of Catholics are at least aware of their Church’s teaching. If they choose to disregard it how could anyone think they do so in invincible ignroance?

Using your logic no one should be instructed in the moral law, because being ignorant is beneficial.
 
It is not ideal to let one wallow in their sins unaware of it, hoping that their ignorance will be the thing to keep them out of hell. True charity involves telling them of their situation and trying to help them out of it.
 
passer_by said:
I agree. But on the other hand, by telling them, we seem to be making it a mortal sin for them, no?
Click to expand...
Whether or not it’s mortal has no impact on the issue. It’s a sin. Even if it’s venial it’s still a sin. They still need to repent of their sin and turn to God for grace.

Think of it like this:

There is a woman on the same bus that you are on. Someone calls you on the phone and tells you that the bus is heading towards the cliff. The driver knows, doesn’t care, and has every intention of driving off the cliff. At the very next stop you get off the bus. There is a woman still on the bus as you’re getting off. There is one more stop after yours before the cliff. Do you tell her to get off the bus or just trust that she will get off at the next stop.

By keeping silent about the impending danger of what someone is doing, you’re leaving them on the bus and hoping that they will get their own warning to get off… when it’s possible that you were supposed to be that warning.
 
grandfather said:
The Church teaches that it is a work of spiritual mercy to reprove the sinner.

Statistics say that married Catholics who do not follow their Church’s teaching on contraception have the same divorce rate as the general public, over 50%. Catholics who obey the Church have a divorce rate of 2%.

It does not matter what those who disobey the Church think. There are consequences to immoral actions, whether or not you understand morality properly.

Ignorance is not bliss.

If you do not believe cigarette smoking causes cancer your ignorance does not keep you from dying.

Invincible ignorance may make a person not culpable for sin. How would you know if someone practicing artificial contraception is doing so in invincible ignorance? Surely the vast majority of Catholics are at least aware of their Church’s teaching. If they choose to disregard it how could anyone think they do so in invincible ignroance?

Using your logic no one should be instructed in the moral law, because being ignorant is beneficial.
Click to expand...
Ok lets be clear though. Invincible ignorance can never apply to entire moral law. Somethings are known in general like murder is wrong etc.

What I am referring to is the more complicated issues like Contraception.

And I am not sure telling me where this leads is bad is the answer though. Like I am looking for how to reconcile the dilemma or someone to explain how to see that there is no dilemma.
 
bmullins said:
Whether or not it’s mortal has no impact on the issue. It’s a sin. Even if it’s venial it’s still a sin. They still need to repent of their sin and turn to God for grace.

Think of it like this:

There is a woman on the same bus that you are on. Someone calls you on the phone and tells you that the bus is heading towards the cliff. The driver knows, doesn’t care, and has every intention of driving off the cliff. At the very next stop you get off the bus. There is a woman still on the bus as you’re getting off. There is one more stop after yours before the cliff. Do you tell her to get off the bus or just trust that she will get off at the next stop.

By keeping silent about the impending danger of what someone is doing, you’re leaving them on the bus and hoping that they will get their own warning to get off… when it’s possible that you were supposed to be that warning.
Click to expand...
But the thing here is that the mortal sin seems to be contingent on you telling the person that it is wrong. So if you don’t tell them, they won’t go over the cliff. They will suffer in purgatory for sometime. But they will be going to heaven anyway.

That is what I am trying to understand.

Because it looks like the very act of informing someone about a sin is making it more likely that he/she would actually loose salvation.
 
Sins tear at Jesus’ Sacred Heart.

Teling the sinner might make the sinner stop sinning in that way.

Do it for the love of Jesus Christ and then let the sinner decide if he will continue.
 
ESMDHokie77 said:
It is not ideal to let one wallow in their sins unaware of it, hoping that their ignorance will be the thing to keep them out of hell. True charity involves telling them of their situation and trying to help them out of it.
Click to expand...
But until one informs the person on why something is immoral, it seems like the act would be a venial sin. So they won’t loose salvation over it. But by telling them about it and informing them, the chances of loosing salvation is increased because now if they do the same action, its a mortal sin.
 
passer_by said:
But the thing here is that the mortal sin seems to be contingent on you telling the person that it is wrong. So if you don’t tell them, they won’t go over the cliff. They will suffer in purgatory for sometime. But they will be going to heaven anyway.

That is what I am trying to understand.

Because it looks like the very act of informing someone about a sin is making it more likely that he/she would actually loose salvation.
Click to expand...
You are assuming by your thought line though that a mortal sin cannot be had if the person has not been informed. The Bible tells us in Jeremiah that the New Covenant will be written in our hearts. Paul also reminds us in the new testament that ‘Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it.’ (Romans 2:14)

We can’t assume that it won’t be a mortal sin or that it will, only God knows what is mortal or not. So we have to inform of any sin… that they have the chance to hear the gospel. The bus is going off the cliff period, it’s just a matter if she is on it or not. There is a chance indeed that she will get off at the next stop (purgatory) but there is also the chance that she will continue riding it right off the cliff… You can’t make her get off at the next stop, she could simply ignore you and believe the bus is perfectly safe… but you have the chance to tell her anyway. She might even get off at your stop, or she might continue on to the next one and change her mind.
 
bmullins said:
You are assuming by your thought line though that a mortal sin cannot be had if the person has not been informed. The Bible tells us in Jeremiah that the New Covenant will be written in our hearts. Paul also reminds us in the new testament that ‘Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it.’ (Romans 2:14)

We can’t assume that it won’t be a mortal sin or that it will, only God knows what is mortal or not. So we have to inform of any sin… that they have the chance to hear the gospel. The bus is going off the cliff period, it’s just a matter if she is on it or not. There is a chance indeed that she will get off at the next stop (purgatory) but there is also the chance that she will continue riding it right off the cliff… You can’t make her get off at the next stop, she could simply ignore you and believe the bus is perfectly safe… but you have the chance to tell her anyway. She might even get off at your stop, or she might continue on to the next one and change her mind.
Click to expand...
I agree that the law is written in our hearts. I think this applies to Murder etc. But you have to agree that Contraception for an example is not so clear to the heart, right? Many feel that they are doing a good thing by it too.

In any case, I guess you are saying we must inform them because we are not sure if they already know? But couldn’t one ask “if they already might know, which is the only way it will be mortal, then us informing is pointless to begin with because it doesn’t change their mind”?

So we have two possibilities
  1. The person already knows - Then us telling them doesn’t add anything new
  2. The person does not know - Then if the person does it again, its mortal sin
Since possibility (2) exists, it still seems like not saying is the best option when in doubt.
 
bmullins said:
You are assuming by your thought line though that a mortal sin cannot be had if the person has not been informed. The Bible tells us in Jeremiah that the New Covenant will be written in our hearts. Paul also reminds us in the new testament that ‘Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it.’ (Romans 2:14).
Click to expand...
Right, God gave us Natural Law and common sense and unless we have a serious mental handicap, we know right from wrong. No trying to justify it!

Peace, Carlan
 
  1. The person already knows - Then us telling them doesn’t add anything new
  2. The person does not know - Then if the person does it again, its mortal sin
Click to expand...
Or 3. The person already knows, but has hardened their heart. God then uses us to ‘soften’ their heart and remind them of what they already know, bringing about change in their life and leading them back to him.
 
Thank you nelka, bmullins, ESMDHokie77 and grandfather,

after reading your answers and putting some thought with emphasis on the “Sins tear at Jesus’ Sacred Heart”, and "3. The person already knows, but has hardened their heart. God then uses us to ‘soften’ their heart " I think I might have finally found a satisfactor answer.

So the way I now see it is as follows

A person X commits grave acts

These acts will make person X suffer in Purgatory and also wounds Christ

Now informing person X leads to the following possibilities
    • Person X repents and starts a new life and is therefore saved from the suffering in purgatory (and on earth) and does not wound Christ
    • Person X does not repent and will now loose salvation (since mortal sin) and also continue to wound Christ
    Now not informing person X leads to
      • Person X continuing to commit the act and thereby wounding Christ and bringing suffering upon himself on earth and purgatory
      Since informing person X is not intrinsically immoral, and by informing
      • We intend to alleviate the wounding of Christ out of love for him
      • We intend to alleviate the suffering in purgatory and on earth that will be experienced by Person X
      that is the better option.

      Therefore, it is our duty, out of love for Person X and more importantly for Christ to inform them of their mortal sins.

      Would that be an acceptable understanding?
 
Therefore, it is our duty, out of love for Person X and more importantly for Christ to inform them of their mortal sins.
Click to expand...
Would that be an acceptable understanding?
Click to expand...
I think not only acceptable but a completely accurate understanding of it.
 
bmullins said:
I think not only acceptable but a completely accurate understanding of it.
Click to expand...
Ok, I will message the moderator to close the thread. Thank you so much for your answers and putting up with my questions! 🙂
 
passer_by said:
Ok lets be clear though. Invincible ignorance can never apply to entire moral law. Somethings are known in general like murder is wrong etc.

What I am referring to is the more complicated issues like Contraception.

And I am not sure telling me where this leads is bad is the answer though. Like I am looking for how to reconcile the dilemma or someone to explain how to see that there is no dilmma.
Click to expand...
It seems impossible that an adult Catholic would not know what the Church teaches regarding contraception making invincible ignorance impossible. One way to be culpable for the sin of another is through silence.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top