Inmates in NY, evacuation and the Hurricane

[Beth_Cecilia]

solitarywatch.com/2011/08/26/locked-up-and-left-behind-new-yorks-prisoners-and-hurricane-irene/

This story makes me sick. Thoughts?

 

[Dale_M]

The article concerns New York City’s decision not to evacuate the 12,000 prisoners housed on Riker’s Island. It mentions that the city has no emergency plan, for any contingency, which would evacuate all of the prisoners.

As for this particular storm, the city responded to criticism:

Update: In an e-mail, Samantha Levine, the mayor’s deputy press secretary, wrote:

We carefully reviewed Rikers Island, as we have done with the entire city, and no section [original emphasis] of Rikers Island facilities are in Zone A.

Rikers Island facilies are not in low-lying areas, it’s not a coastal location and, like nearby small islands Roosevelt Island and City Island, it does not need to be evacuated. We focused on the areas where real dangers exist.

A full Corrections Department staff will remain on Rikers Island and the facility is a fully self-sustaining entity, prepared to operate and care for inmates in extended emergency conditions."

nymag.com/daily/intel/2011/08/no_evacuation_for_rikers_islan.html?imw=Y&f=most-viewed-24h5

Zone A refers to the area of the city at risk for flooding from a category 1 hurricane. Zone B would be at risk from a category 2 hurricane. If Irene is still a hurricane when it reaches New York City, it will be as a category 1 storm.

 

[Catholic90]

From a purely practical standpoint, where and how could they securely and safely transport and lock up 12,000 inmates? It’s not like they could temporarily house them in a school, church, or convention center …

What would you suggest be done? How?

 

[the_phoenix]

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women and
blessed is the Fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners
now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

 

[SouthCatholic]

From a purely practical standpoint, where and how could they securely and safely transport and lock up 12,000 inmates? It’s not like they could temporarily house them in a school, church, or convention center …

What would you suggest be done? How?

So instead, they may have given 12,000 people a death sentence?!

 

[Catholic90]

So instead, they may have given 12,000 people a death sentence?!

What would you do with them? Where would you put them? How would you transport them?

I am just asking practical questions. What are the answers?

 

[Dale_M]

What would you do with them? Where would you put them? How would you transport them?

I am just asking practical questions. What are the answers?

No doubt the answer is difficult, and perhaps expensive, which may be why the city of New York has not developed any such evacuation plan. The issues you raise are valid, but it seems unreasonable to expect someone who doesn’t live in New York City, or is unfamiliar with the resources available to the city government, to be able to answer them.

Certainly the city has gotten away without any such emergency plan for years. And it doesn’t seem to be a problem in this particular weather situation. However, that doesn’t mean that the city should continue to avoid planning for a full evacuation. Strange things do happen. For instance, the east coast of the US recently experienced a rare, strong earthquake which caught everyone off-guard. Rikers Island is built on fill, and we know that during earthquakes land built from fill tends to liquify making the buildings extremely unstable.

 

[Rence]

solitarywatch.com/2011/08/26/locked-up-and-left-behind-new-yorks-prisoners-and-hurricane-irene/

This story makes me sick. Thoughts?

I think that the authorities have to consider the safety of the free citizens first and foremost. Secondly, , I think it would have been too difficult to do safely. Moving 14,000 criminals would be a pretty heavy task in manpower and money,and would require considering a safe prisoner to guard ratio. This storm is already taking its toll on all of the available resources, and we’re not done yet.

I understand your sensitivity towards the criminals. But I don’t think you understand the task you are expecting of the prison. And I don’t mean to be mean, or cruel or insulting, but you expect the State to move moutains at the expense of the safety of guards and other civilians, while you are safe and distant from the dangers associated with such a task. Frankly, if they would have had to evacuate the prison, they wouldn’t have enough manpower to do so. The manpower is stretched thin across the whole eastern seaboard as it is — and we’re not done yet. There is still more to do when the storm passes.

I’m not saying that the inmates are disposable, or not imporant. They are human and deserve consideration. But they are there because they are dangerous criminals. Moving them would be too risky. And the fact of the matter is, they have a great deal of accountability for being there under lock and key.

What are YOUR thoughts? And how do you think it can be resolved? How are 14,000 inmates to be moved, and where would they go? Who would do it? And are they needed elsewhere right now? What can be done to resolve it? And who should be resolving it? What contribution can you make? I certainly have enough on my plate in my life and do not volunteer to help the criminals in this situation. To do so would be abanoning my current responbilities. How many out there not already allocated to help are available to set aside their responsibilities and put their lives at unneccessary risk to move 14,000 criminals? Even among this forum, it would be interesting to poll the members and see if they would leave their responsibilties to manage a prison evauation. Even if we wanted to, the resources are lacking. That’s what happens when there is a need to separate 14,000 criminals from the rest of society.

You know, they are at that facility for a reason. Usually, the high-risk criminals are sent to these facilities.

 

[Beth_Cecilia]

You’re darn right I think they should go to the expense to move the prisoners if they are indeed in danger. In retrospect, however, I would not have posted the story. There are a lot of factors not covered which ought to be considered. Things like back-up power generators, which are not available to people living in apartments, are in place for the prisoners. The building itself likely more stable than most housing. I should have bit my tongue, or at least read a bit more. Still, if it was a question of their safety, as it may or may not be, making sure they are safe has to be a priority. There absolutely should be a contingency plan in place for everyone, criminals included, whose life is in the care of the state. Thank you Dale, for tracking down more information.

I hope and pray they are OK, but I will refrain from judging the decision of a lawmaker who certainly had more information than I. I am sensitive on the issue of rights for prisoners for a number of reasons, some personal. Not even criminals check their dignity at the door.

We were barely breezed here where I live. Prayers ascending for those in NY and other places that are hit harder.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Need to consider the possibility of extreme hype.

Friends of ours living in Queens about one mile from Rikers … said the sidewalks weren’t even wet.

The whole storm thing was a big fizzle.

The City where the mayor is more worried about Transfats than about anything else.

 

[Rence]

I hope and pray they are OK, but I will refrain from judging the decision of a lawmaker who certainly had more information than I. I am sensitive on the issue of rights for prisoners for a number of reasons, some personal. Not even criminals check their dignity at the door.

That’s true, they don’t. But it takes people (other than the prisoners) to step up (if they can) and make it happen. Unless they can muster the resources, there’s not much they can do. It’s not like you can haul them all on a bus and put them up at the nearest Holiday Inn. Whatever is done, it has to be with the assured safety of civilians, and those doing the transporting. Transporting 14,000 inmates is a big job and would take a lot of people – people otherwise utilized in other areas that were being managed.

 

[meltzerboy]

solitarywatch.com/2011/08/26/locked-up-and-left-behind-new-yorks-prisoners-and-hurricane-irene/

This story makes me sick. Thoughts?

Bloomberg stated at a news conference that Rikers Island is not part of Zone A since it is somewhat higher in elevation. I don’t believe that for a moment. The truth is that it would cost the city too much money to figure out an evacuation plan for the inmates. Besides, inmates’ lives are expendable, just like people–many of whom are poorer–who live in the boroughs of NYC: Staten Island, The Bronx, Queens, and Brooklyn are not worth quite as much as residents of Manhattan. The whole evacuation plan and shutting down of mass transit was, in my view, an over-reaction on the part of the Mayor due to his under-reaction during the snowstorm this past winter. The evacuation was very hard on many nursing home residents and people who were hospitalized, and IMO largely unnecessary. Some of the elderly refused to evacuate and, provided they were residents of sturdy brick buildings, probably made the right call.

 

[exnihilo]

Need to consider the possibility of extreme hype…

The City where the mayor is more worried about Transfats than about anything else.

It seems very over hyped. Being a skeptic regarding the motives of the state I have to wonder if this was not just practice or testing to see how easy it is to control folks. Regardless this was the advice from the Mayor of NYC:

“Stay indoors,” says Bloomberg. “It’s fun being out, but this is dangerous.” Also, stay in on Sunday: It’s a “good time to stay in and sleep late.”

Regarding the inmates it becomes impractical to move that many people. Since the state is under no obligation to actually protect folks or be logically consistent, though it might demand you remove yourself from a dangerous area, it will not so oblige itself to action for those under its care.

 

[Beth_Cecilia]

Since the state is under no obligation to actually protect folks or be logically consistent, though it might demand you remove yourself from a dangerous area, it will not so oblige itself to action for those under its care.

Noting your criticism that the whole issue was over-hyped, my question might be purely hypothetical. Do you not think that the state has an obligation to protect and provide at least basic safety to those in its care?

 

[Diakonia]

I think that the authorities have to consider the safety of the free citizens first and foremost. Secondly, , I think it would have been too difficult to do safely. Moving 14,000 criminals would be a pretty heavy task in manpower and money,and would require considering a safe prisoner to guard ratio. This storm is already taking its toll on all of the available resources, and we’re not done yet.

I understand your sensitivity towards the criminals. But I don’t think you understand the task you are expecting of the prison. And I don’t mean to be mean, or cruel or insulting, but you expect the State to move moutains at the expense of the safety of guards and other civilians, while you are safe and distant from the dangers associated with such a task. Frankly, if they would have had to evacuate the prison, they wouldn’t have enough manpower to do so. The manpower is stretched thin across the whole eastern seaboard as it is — and we’re not done yet. There is still more to do when the storm passes.

I’m not saying that the inmates are disposable, or not imporant. They are human and deserve consideration. But they are there because they are dangerous criminals. Moving them would be too risky. And the fact of the matter is, they have a great deal of accountability for being there under lock and key.

What are YOUR thoughts? And how do you think it can be resolved? How are 14,000 inmates to be moved, and where would they go? Who would do it? And are they needed elsewhere right now? What can be done to resolve it? And who should be resolving it? What contribution can you make? I certainly have enough on my plate in my life and do not volunteer to help the criminals in this situation. To do so would be abanoning my current responbilities. How many out there not already allocated to help are available to set aside their responsibilities and put their lives at unneccessary risk to move 14,000 criminals? Even among this forum, it would be interesting to poll the members and see if they would leave their responsibilties to manage a prison evauation. Even if we wanted to, the resources are lacking. That’s what happens when there is a need to separate 14,000 criminals from the rest of society.

You know, they are at that facility for a reason. Usually, the high-risk criminals are sent to these facilities.

These are not necessarily high-risk criminals. Rikers is a jail - it houses only those with sentences of 12 months or less, if I correctly remember NY’s jail standards. Additionally, it houses (in fact a very large percentage of its population consists of) pre-trial detainees, those not as yet convicted of any crime - a lot of whom are there because they are too poor to make bail. Additionally, there are the NY DOC staff who must remain on duty there through the period of risk. So, all is not as easily dismissed as you might like.

Would evacuation of 12,000-14,000 detainees be near impossible? Yes, it would. Which is why correctional facilities need to be built on a smaller scale.
Beth Cecilia:

Do you not think that the state has an obligation to protect and provide at least basic safety to those in its care?

It absolutely does. In fact, it is an obligation both moral and legal.

 

[Rence]

These are not necessarily high-risk criminals. Rikers is a jail - it houses only those with sentences of 12 months or less, if I correctly remember NY’s jail standards. Additionally, it houses (in fact a very large percentage of its population consists of) pre-trial detainees, those not as yet convicted of any crime - a lot of whom are there because they are too poor to make bail. Additionally, there are the NY DOC staff who must remain on duty there through the period of risk. So, all is not as easily dismissed as you might like.

It’s not a matter of “easily dismissed as you might like”. It’s a matter of weighing one action against another, and trying to do what’s right. You can’t move 14,000 criminals and put the other citizens at risk. You would also have to pull suffient numbers of people to this task, taking them away from the task to which they’ve already been assigned in the evacuation of civilians and the disaster relief efforts.

Would evacuation of 12,000-14,000 detainees be near impossible? Yes, it would. Which is why correctional facilities need to be built on a smaller scale.

That would definitely make it a little more manageable.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

I was assisting a friend at a Social Security office in Queens NY when someone came in to present a disability claim. He looked pretty “beefy”. Strong. Young-ish. He had been a corrections officer at Rikers and had been beaten by a prisoner almost to death. So many bone and joint injuries he could no longer work and only walked with great difficulty.

So, Rikers might only be a jail, but some of the people incarcerated there are very dangerous people.

 

[Diakonia]

So, Rikers might only be a jail, but some of the people incarcerated there are very dangerous people.

That’s why it has gates and a fence. I never said there were not dangerous people there, as there are on the street, in the next cash register line, and in the next pew.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

That’s why it has gates and a fence. I never said there were not dangerous people there, as there are on the street, in the next cash register line, and in the next pew.

The people on the street, in the next cash register line and in the next pew are less likely than someone incarcerated at Rikers to beat you to a pulp.

 

[Diakonia]

The people on the street, in the next cash register line and in the next pew are less likely than someone incarcerated at Rikers to beat you to a pulp.

Because they haven’t yet made it to Rikers?

Your observation, including the initial one have little relevance to the question of moral responsibility. The latter is not predicated on ‘likeability’ last I checked.

The point is that if society elects to assume responsibility for the care of 14,000 folk, then it has a moral responsibility to them. If the thing standing in the way of doing so is that there are 14,000 of them in one place, then it needs to look at how it organizes the infrastructure involved - e.g., smaller correctional facities that offer a better hope of being managed in this sort of situation.