Innocence Mary?

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Fauken said:
It’s hardly a problem. We have baptism which washes away Original Sin and are born again.
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🙂
Vico said:
I am saying that the Holy Trinity is omniscient, so knew the the Virgin Mary would say yes. “He knows all real things in the past, present, and the future by his knowledge of vision.” – Modern Catholic Dictionary
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OK. That’s true. But why the Holy trinity did it to children of Adam?
 
pohandes said:
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Fauken:
It’s hardly a problem. We have baptism which washes away Original Sin and are born again.
Click to expand...
🙂
Vico said:
I am saying that the Holy Trinity is omniscient, so knew the the Virgin Mary would say yes. “He knows all real things in the past, present, and the future by his knowledge of vision.” – Modern Catholic Dictionary
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OK. That’s true. But why the Holy trinity did it to children of Adam?
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If was fitting (proper) for the Mother of God, but not for all. Did you read Ineffabilis Deus?

 
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The main reason (And could also be the only reason) why Mary was the only one immaculately conceived was because she was to become the Mother of God. Mary had to be a fitting person to become God’s Mother.

If you aren’t satisfied, read the link posted above (even if it’s long). Maybe you answer is there.
 
GioG12 said:
The main reason (And could also be the only reason) why Mary was the only one immaculately conceived was because she was to become the Mother of God. Mary had to be a fitting person to become God’s Mother.

If you aren’t satisfied, read the link posted above (even if it’s long). Maybe you answer is there.
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Well, there is another problem. If it is possible born innocent even from sinner parents, then it could happen to Lord Jesus, and It was not necessary to innocence of his Mother.
 
pohandes said:
OK, Then why The God did not did not do this for other humen? If he did it for children of Adam, there would be no Original Sin.
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Yes, or He could’ve prevented Adam or any descendants from committing the original sin to begin with. But God prizes man’s freedom; He “ left man in the hand of his own counsel” for His purposes, determining to produce something with that freedom, something greater than He began with.

Adam played his role in our falling while Mary played a part in our rising. God graces certain people at certain times to advance His kingdom in certain ways and Mary was so graced, for the benefit of us all. While He’s still unwilling to totally override your will, we’re completely lost unless He works in this world to bring us into the light. And He often chooses to use people for that purpose. Even in our lives right now He can bring people and circumstances to bear to help us in making the turn towards faith, or for whatever reason. Mary simply had a very large and favored role to play in that same capacity.
 
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fhansen said:
Yes, or He could’ve prevented Adam or any descendants from committing the original sin to begin with. But God prizes man’s freedom; He “ left man in the hand of his own counsel” for His purposes, determining to produce something with that freedom, something greater than He began with.

Adam played his role in our falling while Mary played a part in our rising. God graces certain people at certain times to advance His kingdom in certain ways and Mary was so graced, for the benefit of us all. While He’s still unwilling to totally override your will, we’re completely lost unless He works in this world to bring us into the light. And He often chooses to use people for that purpose. Even in our lives right now He can bring people and circumstances to bear to help us in making the turn towards faith, or for whatever reason. Mary simply had a very large and favored role to play in that same capacity.
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Thanks. It is a nice description, but not a logical answer.
 
And why is it not logical? There’s a corporate sense to salvation, where we can all help each other towards that end. If God’s purpose is to save man, but not totally without man’s consent, why not use whatever resource He sees fit? Why not favor one or two or a few in some certain way for the benefit of all? Why should we complain about that if we still end up with a fair choice?
 
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fhansen said:
And why is it not logical? There’s a corporate sense to salvation, where we can all help each other towards that end. If God’s purpose is to save man, but not totally without man’s consent, why not use whatever resource He sees fit? Why not favor one or two or a few in some certain way for the benefit of all? Why should we complain about that if we still end up with a fair choice?
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We have free will and according to caholic teachings, we can avoid sins, therefore we could be sinless even with free will.
 
We cannot avoid sin to the extent that part of us is broken or missing. And that part is God. God, man’s communion with Him, is our justification and therefore our salvation. So the Church teaches that the justified man, constituted in grace, can avoid sin.

“For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone. It instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives in the present age.” Titus 2:12
 
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pohandes said:
We have free will and according to caholic teachings, we can avoid sins, therefore we could be sinless even with free will.
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Adam could’ve remained sinless. But he willed otherwise. Free will can be misused and abused. God wanted Adam to use his freedom to contribute his part, in his own perfecting, which means for him to turn to and draw near to God rather than away from Him. Adam turned away but God didn’t abandon him; He patiently seeks to still elicit that willingness to make the right choice from us, to use our freedom to finally gain the wisdom to draw near to Him. And, presumably Adam has done just that by now.
 
fhansen said:
Adam could’ve remained sinless. But he willed otherwise. Free will can be misused and abused. God wanted Adam to use his freedom to contribute his part, in his own perfecting, which means for him to turn to and draw near to God rather than away from Him. Adam turned away but God didn’t abandon him; He patiently seeks to still elicit that willingness to make the right choice from us, to use our freedom to finally gain the wisdom to draw near to Him. And, presumably Adam has done just that by now.
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Yes Adam took mistake, but it is possible to us do it avioiding sins.
 
pohandes said:
Yes Adam took mistake, but it is possible to us do it avioiding sins.
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Unless you haven’t noticed, we’re born without any kind of direct, intimate knowledge or experience of God. We do not know Him. This is not the way it’s meant to be; this is a disordered state of being for man. Adam placed humanity in that position, by an act, a disposition, of preferring himself to God as the catechism teaches. We might’ve struggled with that same choice if we were him but in any case we struggle with it now. Do we carry on the family tradition or not? Do we remain in pride, preferring ourselves to God? Is that a better way? Here we can learn that answer, with the help of experience, revelation, and grace. And Mary is a part of that grace BTW. Bringing forth the new Adam who reconciles us by giving us the “knowledge of God”, by revealing the true God.

“Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.“ John 17:3
 
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And??? Maybe in this way the drama is completed. Maybe in this way humanity will never again commit that sin. Freedom is never taken away from us. We’re simply here to learn about God, to come to truly know Him, the authentic Object of all human desire. Then, knowing Him fully as we are fully known (1 Cor 13), we won’t want to turn away from Him again.

The drama starts here for each of us. And our own righteousness/justice/perfection increases to the extent that we choose good over evil, God over no God as we come to learn of the choices. It’s a process and one that’s happening now, in one way or another, in each of our lives. IMO it’s petty and trivial to worry about how He could’ve done It better or by what means or how He might’ve favored one person to help bring His light to the many. The choice is still ours. Do we even really want to know God?
 
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Mary was preserved from original sin because God wanted to come to us thru the creation of his Son in order to save us. He’s always coming to us. If you read any of the bible, you will see that he’s constantly pursuing us. But it’s ultimately our own choice to recognize and believe this and what someone (Jesus) will do for you for love.

Debbie
 
And what would that do, pohandes?

As we have told you over and over, being born without original sin does not mean that you will not ever sin.

Maybe you should ask yourself why you think it is so important to you personally to ‘get’ something which has been given to out first parents (who still sinned anyway), and to Jesus who is God, and to His Mother.

Does Jesus’ gift of salvation being given to His Mother at her conception differ from YOUR gift of salvation offered at your baptism? No. Baptism cleanses original sin. And after baptism one is free to choose evil or good exactly as Mary herself after her birth likewise was free to commit evil or good as well.

I repeat again, Mary’s being born without original sin was not a magic bullet which kept her perfect. She chose not to sin her life long —in essence, choosing to do what we were all created to do correctly but as always, with the power through free will of choosing to do evil as well as good.
 
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