Inquiries For Catholics

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Robert_Michael

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I’m looking for some Catholic interpretations to a few Bible passages.

Romans 4:4-6 KJV
(4) Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
(5) And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
(6)just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

Note: Please don’t give me the “works of the law”. Paul wasn’t always talking about works of the law. For instance:

Ephesians 2:10 KJV
(10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

When Paul says we are created in Jesus “for good works” and that we “should walk in them”, he meant works of the Law? Also, for Romans 4, which speaks of Abraham, the Mosaic Law was hundreds of years in the future.

Ephesians 1:7
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace

Acts 15:11
No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

Is it heresy to believe that we are saved and that we have redemption through Christ’s blood and the forgiveness of sins, as Catholics do not believe anyone is saved, but that we are being saved? How would that blend with Acts 15:11 and Ephesians 1:7?

Acts 16:31
They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Is the following saying that we must have works to earn salvation(?):

CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life, -if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema. -Trent, 6th Session

Also, please do not try to counter me with Scripture (specifically James 2 or any other Catholic circular arguments), for Scripture can not contradict itself . Thanks. 🙂

In Galatians, Paul is stern on the fact that Christians are not to be bound by anything again, and that we should be free in Christ. How is Catholicism freedom, when you are committing a “mortal sin” by not attending mass, and then damned to hell if you die before confession?

Catholicism teaches many rules that we must observe, or else…How does that
correspond to Isaiah 29:13, Matthew 15:9, and Mark 7:7?

Isaiah 29:13
The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men.

Matthew 15:9
They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ "

Mark 7:7
They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’

That’s it for now. Thank you. 😃
 
\Note: Please don’t give me the “works of the law”. Paul wasn’t always talking about works of the law. \

Yes, he was. Why ask a question if you refuse to accept the correct answer?

\Matthew 15:9
They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ "

Mark 7:7
They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’\

**Jesus was prophesying about Protestants in general and pop-evangelicals (like you) in particular.

You know, I’ll bet you thought you came here saying things we’ve not dealt with hundreds of times before already.**
 
bpbasilphx said:
\Note: Please don’t give me the “works of the law”. Paul wasn’t always talking about works of the law. \

Yes, he was. Why ask a question if you refuse to accept the correct answer?

\Matthew 15:9
They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ "

Mark 7:7
They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’\

**Jesus was prophesying about Protestants in general and pop-evangelicals (like you) in particular.

You know, I’ll bet you thought you came here saying things we’ve not dealt with hundreds of times before already.**
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I’m looking for loving Catholics, not a loveless Orthodox. Thanks. 😉
 
Well, Judaism teaches many rules that Jews must believe in, or else.

The fact that a religion teaches certain truths which must be adhered to (or else) would in fact argue for its ultimate truth. If there are no truths which must be obeyed. . .there is no ultimate Truth at all. I mean, it makes logical sense when you think about it. Even a statement of “there is no thing which you MUST adhere to or else” becomes itself a statement which you MUST believe, doesn’t it?
 
“Also, please do not try to counter me with Scripture”

um…what would you prefer we use? Smoke signals?

David:christmastree1:
 
I agree with H20, the copy/paste anti-Catholic rhetoric is kind of lame, not to mention silly since every verse you mention has been refuted countless times in othe threads, books, forums, websites, debates, etc. etc. etc.
 
Tantum_ergo said:
Well, Judaism teaches many rules that Jews must believe in, or else.

The fact that a religion teaches certain truths which must be adhered to (or else) would in fact argue for its ultimate truth. If there are no truths which must be obeyed. . .there is no ultimate Truth at all. I mean, it makes logical sense when you think about it. Even a statement of “there is no thing which you MUST adhere to or else” becomes itself a statement which you MUST believe, doesn’t it?
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I’m talking about rules, not doctrines.
Corki said:
Well, to get you started, here’s a pretty thorough commentary on Romans 4.

agapebiblestudy.com/Romans/Chapter%204.htm
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Thank you. 😃
dnu said:
“Also, please do not try to counter me with Scripture”

um…what would you prefer we use? Smoke signals?

David:christmastree1:
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Lol. You can use Scripture, just do not try to counter my Scripture with other Scripture, thinking that one Scripture is above another. For Scripture can not contradict, remember? 😃 😛
DihydrogenOxide said:
Why does it seem to me that you’re trolling?

Try not taking the scripture readings out of context and stacking them.
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By all means, read them in context. In fact, do so. I recommend it. It’s just that I didn’t feel like making you all read the whole books or chapters. 🙂
 
dnu said:
I agree with H20, the copy/paste anti-Catholic rhetoric is kind of lame, not to mention silly since every verse you mention has been refuted countless times in othe threads, books, forums, websites, debates, etc. etc. etc.
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Sorry, I’m new to this. I also didn’t copy or paste anything except Bible verses in my Bible.

I understand that you guys get a lot of trolls and that you claim us all trolls, but I assure you I’m not. If you looked in the Non-Catholic forum, there’s another post called “Inquiries For Protestants”. It’s just like this thread, except in that one everyone think I’m a radical Catholic troll who hates Protestants.
 
Robert_Michael said:
I’m looking for loving Catholics, not a loveless Orthodox. Thanks. 😉
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Basil knows what he’s talking about, as usual 👍

What, you guys still can’t handle the truth?

Hmmm… rules taught by men… the Catholic church has direct apostolic foundations, as do Orthodox. I believe your certain brand of Christianity wasn’t in existence before the last few centuries?

But, but… has Jesus came to us in the last few centuries to establish His Church and die for our sins? So that must mean that your church was founded by men, not by Our Lord. Please, don’t be a hypocrite. Give Jesus’s Church a try in addition to Jesus’s book. You’ll find that they are both necessary to understand the other.

Praying for your conversion. (Coming to these forums was your first baby step.)
 
ljubim said:
Basil knows what he’s talking about, as usual 👍

What, you guys still can’t handle the truth?

Hmmm… rules taught by men… the Catholic church has direct apostolic foundations, as do Orthodox. I believe your certain brand of Christianity wasn’t in existence before the last few centuries?

But, but… has Jesus came to us in the last few centuries to establish His Church and die for our sins? So that must mean that your church was founded by men, not by Our Lord. Please, don’t be a hypocrite. Give Jesus’s Church a try in addition to Jesus’s book. You’ll find that they are both necessary to understand the other.

Praying for your conversion. (Coming to these forums was your first baby step.)
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Perhaps because when we read Scripture, we feel guided to believe different things? I mean, you have to admit, Scripture is very hard.

Yes, they do. No, mine wasn’t started until Luther came.

I would love to convert if I so felt lead by the Holy Spirit to do so. 😃
 
Robert_Michael said:
Perhaps because when we read Scripture, we feel guided to believe different things? I mean, you have to admit, Scripture is very hard.

Yes, they do. No, mine wasn’t started until Luther came.

I would love to convert if I so felt lead by the Holy Spirit to do so. 😃
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True, it can be hard, but it was written for us to understand. If we don’t get it, then we are taught by people who can help us come to understand it.

The quote about people not coming to God with their hearts but simply honoring Him, are you trying to say that Catholics rely on rules, and not love to follow God? Both are incredibly important… God gives us rules such as the Ten Commandments because He loves us, and wants to make us good people in act as well as heart.

There’s just an aura about Catholics(good catholics, mind you), that just shows God’s love to the world. It seems that Protestants’ denial of living Godly lives through charity makes their hearts somewhat lukewarm.(from personal experience… I’m in the bible belt right now - AKA the Protestant heartland of America. There’s a difference between people who receive Our Lord every week and those who don’t.)

Now to turn this around on you: how would you interpret this Scripture?

Matthew 26 said:
26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
27 Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you,
28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.
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How could His blood be shed if it’s not real blood, if it’s just symbolism?

And I feel like you have a very poor understanding of Catholicism:
Robert_Michael said:
In Galatians, Paul is stern on the fact that Christians are not to be bound by anything again, and that we should be free in Christ. How is Catholicism freedom, when you are committing a “mortal sin” by not attending mass, and then damned to hell if you die before confession?
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No, silly, Galatians is about Gentiles not having to follow Jewish Mosaic law, like circumcision. So by freedom do you mean liscentiousness, as in doing whatever you want? As in NOT Christianity?
That’s what the last rites are about, a last chance to ask for God’s forgiveness. Say you ask for a priest and die right as he walks in? You have the intent to confess. God is not limited to the sacraments, because He made them, He can issue them when He wants to, just like if a baby is aborted and was never baptised.
Missing mass IS serious. You would understand if you actually had Christ present in your church. Mass isn’t a bible study, it’s physically spending time with Jesus and hearing His word.
 
Robert_Michael said:
I’m looking for some Catholic interpretations to a few Bible passages.

Romans 4:4-6 KJV
(4) Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
(5) And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
(6)just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

Note: Please don’t give me the “works of the law”.
Click to expand...
This is about initial justification, works on our behalf cannot merit it. Most of St Paul is about initial justification. Even the Council of Trent said initial justification is given freely by Grace, work nor faith merit it. King David is used as an example, since David regained his justification. St Paul is condemning the idea God is in debt to us, God has no debt to us.
Paul wasn’t always talking about works of the law. For instance:
Click to expand...
Ephesians 2:10 KJV
(10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Click to expand...
The verses before this verse is about initial justification, we cannot merit it and it is not from ourselves, Verse 10 is about after being justified initially, we are called to do good works, they are God’s works, but God still gives us credit for doing them.
When Paul says we are created in Jesus “for good works” and that we “should walk in them”, he meant works of the Law? Also, for Romans 4, which speaks of Abraham, the Mosaic Law was hundreds of years in the future.
Click to expand...
From my understanding Jesus said we will no be rewarded for doing what we are supposed to do (ie works of the Law) we just will not be damned.
Ephesians 1:7
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace
Click to expand...
Acts 15:11
No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
Click to expand...
Is it heresy to believe that we are saved and that we have redemption through Christ’s blood and the forgiveness of sins, as Catholics do not believe anyone is saved, but that we are being saved? How would that blend with Acts 15:11 and Ephesians 1:7?
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Christ’s death was necessary for our forgiveness of sins and in turn salvation, Jesus had to pay a price to the Father in His death and blood so that sins can be forgiven. Catholics believe you can be saved in the present tense, its called being in a state of grace, however grace can be lost.
Acts 16:31
They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
Click to expand...
Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Click to expand...
Belief is generally necessary for salvation, yes, but not alone.
Is the following saying that we must have works to earn salvation(?):
Click to expand...
CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life, -if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema. -Trent, 6th Session
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This is speaking of someone who has already been justified freely, good works done by a person already in grace furthers justification
Also, please do not try to counter me with Scripture (specifically James 2 or any other Catholic circular arguments), for Scripture can not contradict itself . Thanks. 🙂
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James 2 refers to furthering justification, Romans 4 and Ephesians 2 refer to initial justification, no contradiction
In Galatians, Paul is stern on the fact that Christians are not to be bound by anything again, and that we should be free in Christ. How is Catholicism freedom, when you are committing a “mortal sin” by not attending mass, and then damned to hell if you die before confession?
Click to expand...
Jesus said “if you love me you will keep my commandments” Galatians even says we have the “Law of Christ” and Jesus taught law keeping. Jesus restores our freewill so we can choose good, we are no longer bound to Mosaic law and slaves to sin
Catholicism teaches many rules that we must observe, or else…How does that
correspond to Isaiah 29:13, Matthew 15:9, and Mark 7:7?
Click to expand...
Isaiah 29:13
The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men.
Click to expand...
Matthew 15:9
They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ "
Click to expand...
Mark 7:7
They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’
Click to expand...
Still Jesus taught law keeping, He have the Church power to bind and loose. The Pharisees allowed things that contradicted scripture like honoring mother and father
 
Council of Trent on initial justification
CHAPTER VIII.
In what manner it is to be understood, that the impious is justified by faith, and gratuitously.
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And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be **justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. **For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.
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Here is a site that has catholic commentary, here is one for Matthew 15 verse

catholicapologetics.info/scripture/newtestament/15matth.htm

its too long so i wont paste

Ultimately they Pharisees nullified the law by letting people say to their parents:

“Any support you might have had from me is dedicated to God,”
 
Robert_Michael said:
Perhaps because when we read Scripture, we feel guided to believe different things? I mean, you have to admit, Scripture is very hard. …

I would love to convert if I so felt lead by the Holy Spirit to do so. 😃
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Why is it that you feel allowed to interpret the various scriptures in your way [and your protestant neighbor in his] - both guided - of course - by the Holy Spirit …

And then the Catholic is told that the ‘catholic’ interpretation [as inspired by the same Holy Spirit] is wrong? …

You state that scripture cannot contradict … so we don’t need works just faith but faith without works id dead … and while I agree one does not trump the other … the catholic woud say they complete each other …

So let me put it to you this way … the Chruch does not teach that you can work your way to Heaven … the Church teaches that you are to comform your life to Christ in thought and deed … We are to live the “Way” … that invloves working - living is an action that involves many tasks … and we need to conform our lives at all times, daily even minute by minute lest we turn away from Christ … we are ike PAul, working out our salvation so that we might win the race … Paul brought many to Christ and discusses the great sadness should he not perservere in that faith …

To put it another way … You cannot ‘think’ your way to heaven expressing a faith that does not act in and shape the world around you … How you act makes a difference … it makes a difference in your very soul, in your public persona and society in which you reside …
 
ljubim said:
True, it can be hard, but it was written for us to understand. If we don’t get it, then we are taught by people who can help us come to understand it.

The quote about people not coming to God with their hearts but simply honoring Him, are you trying to say that Catholics rely on rules, and not love to follow God? Both are incredibly important… God gives us rules such as the Ten Commandments because He loves us, and wants to make us good people in act as well as heart.

There’s just an aura about Catholics(good catholics, mind you), that just shows God’s love to the world. It seems that Protestants’ denial of living Godly lives through charity makes their hearts somewhat lukewarm.(from personal experience… I’m in the bible belt right now - AKA the Protestant heartland of America. There’s a difference between people who receive Our Lord every week and those who don’t.)

Now to turn this around on you: how would you interpret this Scripture? How could His blood be shed if it’s not real blood, if it’s just symbolism?

And I feel like you have a very poor understanding of Catholicism: No, silly, Galatians is about Gentiles not having to follow Jewish Mosaic law, like circumcision. So by freedom do you mean liscentiousness, as in doing whatever you want? As in NOT Christianity?
That’s what the last rites are about, a last chance to ask for God’s forgiveness. Say you ask for a priest and die right as he walks in? You have the intent to confess. God is not limited to the sacraments, because He made them, He can issue them when He wants to, just like if a baby is aborted and was never baptised.
Missing mass IS serious. You would understand if you actually had Christ present in your church. Mass isn’t a bible study, it’s physically spending time with Jesus and hearing His word.
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Now, I have to ask this. Not because I want to sway you, but because I seriously want answers to better understand the Catholic position on things. My question is, even though Catholics claim that Scripture, the Church, and Tradition are of equal authority, isn’t stating that the Church is the only source of interpretation of Scripture putting the Church over Scripture? I apologize if my hypothesis is wrong.

Don’t get me wrong, rules are very important and help keep things in order. But, it seems that Catholicism puts too much significance on what we do rather on what God does. Jesus spoke of the Pharisees laying heavy burdens on the people, and that they would not even lift a finger. The Pharisees wouldn’t even let people save a sheep on the Sabbath if it had fallen into a ditch. I feel like Catholics fit this description (sorry, but I’m just stating my true opinion. I’d rather tell the hurtful truth than make a happy lie about my true feelings). I find it so wrong that they make it a “mortal sin” to even miss mass. Let me ask, do they even forbid preaching in villages in India where there aren’t Catholic parishes because they would be missing mass for a while, despite the work they do for the people through preaching? I also think it’s messed up to say that if one dies without confession of one mortal sin, they end up in hell. I simply don’t find much of God’s grace in your Church. Keep in mind, though, that my opinions can change and that I’m open to correction. I find it rather distasteful these days that people are so close-minded.

Modern American Protestant Christianity is bogus. They make salvation a step by step system that goes, “Did you ever ask Jesus into your life? Did you pray a prayer? Were you genuine?”, and if you answer “yes” to all the questions they declare you saved. Sorry to say, but that isn’t how it happens. We must live our faith.

I don’t recall myself ever stating that the Eucharist isn’t the Body and Blood of Christ and that it is symbolic. In fact, I believe quite the opposite. As Luther wrote in his Catechism, if we do not trust in Christ’s words in the Sacrament of the Alter, we take Communion in a dishonorable way. Especially the words, “Given for the forgiveness of sins”. The Eucharist is a means of grace.

By freedom I mean not being completely subject to a particular organization or system, but being free in Christ. How can you say, “as in NOT Christianity”, when I said “free IN CHRIST”?

What about those who can not have a priest come? What about those who die alone? What about those who die in their sleep?

You say, “You would understand if you actually had Christ present in your church.” I find these words rude and proud. Where have you obtained your self-righteousness? I see that your simply trying to hurt me, and that this is more personal than anything for you. You do not care for me at all. Did you never read Scripture?

Matthew 18:20
“For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.”

I must be honest, I do not go to church. My parents would rather me not, and I can’t force them to drive me. However, I know Christ is always present there. It’s not a Bible study either. I see that this is all about yourself and that Christ loves “you”. So be it. All your trying to do is make me feel bad, hurt me, make me vulnerable, and then join the Church you belong to. Sorry, but thing do not work that way. Perhaps you should reconsider your strategy.
Thank you, BerhaneSelassie, for actually taking time to examine my questions and answer them, instead of making personal attacks at me. I have great respect for you. I’ll post again when I read them fully. 🙂
Sorry, YADA, but it seems you failed to even look anything of my post over and assumed I was a typical Protestant anti-Catholic who hates everything and anything about Catholicism. Thus, you simply stated a few of the circular Catholic arguments hoping it would have effect. Oh well. Judge me whatever way you please. 🙂
 
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