Inquiry on Original Sin

[ActuarialNinja]

Hi Everybody,

My issue that I struggle is this: Why would God create humans defective?

To help explain, I will borrow a few thoughts from CS Lewis.

In Mere Christianity, Lewis writes that we are all as a man caught in the current of a river; being pulled under, no doubt, by the weight of our sins. Elsewhere, he writes that we all are on a slippery slope, always having a force pull us away from God (and further into sin): that sinning is a sort of default position that we are in, and that even with considerable effort, most of us do not conform even to the basic rudiments God’s moral law (and [almost?] no one can conform perfectly, even with monumental effort).

Now there can be no doubt that we are all drowning; but why would God have us be born, as it were, caught in the undertow of a river? We all are indeed on a large and slippery slope, but we were placed there from birth and without our choosing. To slide down and away from God would to me seem rather like placing a beloved pet on a wall of ice and then to watch it unsuccessfully struggle toward its master. Now the master, to be sure, has a plan for its rescue; but the poor helpless creature does not like where it is, and can hardly be blamed for its present slide toward the precipice below.

Why would we be forced into such a dreadful predicament? For it seems very much that we are forced into it; pushed onto the terrible slope from which we must then be rescued. There is real evil that comes from each of our hearts: but what to say to the objector who points out that we were made that way; that we can no more choose to have evil thoughts and impulses than to have sweat glands or hair. Now we need not, and should not, act on these impulses; but to me the whole thing looks horribly cruel - rather like a parent dropping his child in a pool of mud, and later chastising the child for being dirty. No doubt it would be high foolishness not to take the offer to become clean; that is not the issue.

I can honestly say that I made real efforts to find an answer, but found nothing satisfying.

Thank you, and may God bless you all.

Appendix

One can of course answer our predicament by the often cited (and traditional) answer that humans were initially made right, and they freely rejected perfection in favor of its opposite. This is a fine defense for the first humans. They were given God’s presence and the unspeakable delights that came with it: in the face of all of that, they still turned away. For their idiocy we are all living in the shambles of a fallen world. But we still have the problem of the evil impulses (to lie, cheat, steal, lust, etc.) coming from our own hearts; it makes no sense (to me) that these should be inherited as well. Why not be given the same chance as the first humans were? We are told God loves us no less, and yet keeps us bound in original sin.

Perhaps for now there is no answer, and the best that can be done is to “Keep on. Do what you can” until our rescue is complete (after purgatory).

 

[davidv]

Hi Everybody,

My issue that I struggle is this: Why would God create humans defective?

To help explain, I will borrow a few thoughts from CS Lewis.

In Mere Christianity, Lewis writes that we are all as a man caught in the current of a river; being pulled under, no doubt, by the weight of our sins. Elsewhere, he writes that we all are on a slippery slope, always having a force pull us away from God (and further into sin): that sinning is a sort of default position that we are in, and that even with considerable effort, most of us do not conform even to the basic rudiments God’s moral law (and [almost?] no one can conform perfectly, even with monumental effort).

Now there can be no doubt that we are all drowning; but why would God have us be born, as it were, caught in the undertow of a river? We all are indeed on a large and slippery slope, but we were placed there from birth and without our choosing. To slide down and away from God would to me seem rather like placing a beloved pet on a wall of ice and then to watch it unsuccessfully struggle toward its master. Now the master, to be sure, has a plan for its rescue; but the poor helpless creature does not like where it is, and can hardly be blamed for its present slide toward the precipice below.

Why would we be forced into such a dreadful predicament? For it seems very much that we are forced into it; pushed onto the terrible slope from which we must then be rescued. There is real evil that comes from each of our hearts: but what to say to the objector who points out that we were made that way; that we can no more choose to have evil thoughts and impulses than to have sweat glands or hair. Now we need not, and should not, act on these impulses; but to me the whole thing looks horribly cruel - rather like a parent dropping his child in a pool of mud, and later chastising the child for being dirty. No doubt it would be high foolishness not to take the offer to become clean; that is not the issue.

I can honestly say that I made real efforts to find an answer, but found nothing satisfying.

Thank you, and may God bless you all.

Appendix

One can of course answer our predicament by the often cited (and traditional) answer that humans were initially made right, and they freely rejected perfection in favor of its opposite. This is a fine defense for the first humans. They were given God’s presence and the unspeakable delights that came with it: in the face of all of that, they still turned away. For their idiocy we are all living in the shambles of a fallen world. But we still have the problem of the evil impulses (to lie, cheat, steal, lust, etc.) coming from our own hearts; it makes no sense (to me) that these should be inherited as well. Why not be given the same chance as the first humans were? We are told God loves us no less, and yet keeps us bound in original sin.

Perhaps for now there is no answer, and the best that can be done is to “Keep on. Do what you can” until our rescue is complete (after purgatory).

My first reaction to this post is that any answer provided here will not be satisfactory to you. What kind of answer would be satisfying? And why is your satisfaction with the answer the measure of its truthfulness?

P.S. Welcome to the forum.

 

[fred_conty]

Just a brief un-philosophical answer, Adam & Eve did not have “a large and slippery slope” to fight against. As a matter of fact it was quite the opposite, “a large and powerful elevator” to take them up.

They had all the preternatural gifts, the supernatural gifts, special infused knowledge, and no concupescense. In effect it was easier for them to not sin.

Then why did they sin? I’ll answer that by saying “why did the angels sin?” They didn’t have bodies that complicated things, and they were extremely intelligent.

Why does any creature sin? Because they can, they have freedom, even tho it may be easier for them not to sin. That’s just the way it is.

Have you ever been truely mystyfied by what people do? I am all the time. And one of the things I find very hard to understand is why are people mean? Just plain mean. And for no good reason Mean. Mean just to be mean. Yet there are people like that.

But just because I don’t understand dosen’t make it un-fact. It just happens, for a reason, which escapes my wildest imagination. But there it is. Believe it or not.

Adam and Eve sinned, and I really don’t understand it since they had so much more going for them then we do. It was easier for them to chose good. Why did they do it???

Just some thoughts.

 

[grannymh]

Hi Everybody,

My issue that I struggle is this: Why would God create humans defective?

To help explain, I will borrow a few thoughts from CS Lewis.

In Mere Christianity, Lewis writes that we are all as a man caught in the current of a river; being pulled under, no doubt, by the weight of our sins. Elsewhere, he writes that we all are on a slippery slope, always having a force pull us away from God (and further into sin): that sinning is a sort of default position that we are in, and that even with considerable effort, most of us do not conform even to the basic rudiments God’s moral law (and [almost?] no one can conform perfectly, even with monumental effort).

Now there can be no doubt that we are all drowning; but why would God have us be born, as it were, caught in the undertow of a river? We all are indeed on a large and slippery slope, but we were placed there from birth and without our choosing. To slide down and away from God would to me seem rather like placing a beloved pet on a wall of ice and then to watch it unsuccessfully struggle toward its master. Now the master, to be sure, has a plan for its rescue; but the poor helpless creature does not like where it is, and can hardly be blamed for its present slide toward the precipice below.

Why would we be forced into such a dreadful predicament? For it seems very much that we are forced into it; pushed onto the terrible slope from which we must then be rescued. There is real evil that comes from each of our hearts: but what to say to the objector who points out that we were made that way; that we can no more choose to have evil thoughts and impulses than to have sweat glands or hair. Now we need not, and should not, act on these impulses; but to me the whole thing looks horribly cruel - rather like a parent dropping his child in a pool of mud, and later chastising the child for being dirty. No doubt it would be high foolishness not to take the offer to become clean; that is not the issue.

I can honestly say that I made real efforts to find an answer, but found nothing satisfying.

Thank you, and may God bless you all.

Appendix

One can of course answer our predicament by the often cited (and traditional) answer that humans were initially made right, and they freely rejected perfection in favor of its opposite. This is a fine defense for the first humans. They were given God’s presence and the unspeakable delights that came with it: in the face of all of that, they still turned away. For their idiocy we are all living in the shambles of a fallen world. But we still have the problem of the evil impulses (to lie, cheat, steal, lust, etc.) coming from our own hearts; it makes no sense (to me) that these should be inherited as well. Why not be given the same chance as the first humans were? We are told God loves us no less, and yet keeps us bound in original sin.

Perhaps for now there is no answer, and the best that can be done is to “Keep on. Do what you can” until our rescue is complete (after purgatory).

In my humble opinion, the key to unraveling your struggle is this comment of yours.

“One can of course answer our predicament by the often cited (and traditional) answer that humans were initially made right, and they freely rejected perfection in favor of its opposite.”

Unfortunately, this is not the Catholic traditional description of Original Sin which is your inquiry.

If you would kindly give me the Catholic description of Original Sin, it then will be possible to place C.S. Lewis’ writings in context.

 

[grannymh]

Just a brief un-philosophical answer, Adam & Eve did not have “a large and slippery slope” to fight against. As a matter of fact it was quite the opposite, “a large and powerful elevator” to take them up.

They had all the preternatural gifts, the supernatural gifts, special infused knowledge, and no concupescense. In effect it was easier for them to not sin.

Then why did they sin? I’ll answer that by saying “why did the angels sin?” They didn’t have bodies that complicated things, and they were extremely intelligent.

Why does any creature sin? Because they can, they have freedom, even tho it may be easier for them not to sin. That’s just the way it is.

Have you ever been truely mystyfied by what people do? I am all the time. And one of the things I find very hard to understand is why are people mean? Just plain mean. And for no good reason Mean. Mean just to be mean. Yet there are people like that.

But just because I don’t understand dosen’t make it un-fact. It just happens, for a reason, which escapes my wildest imagination. But there it is. Believe it or not.

Adam and Eve sinned, and I really don’t understand it since they had so much more going for them then we do. It was easier for them to chose good. Why did they do it???

Just some thoughts.

As I suggested in post 4.

If you will kindly give me the Catholic description of Original Sin, it will be easier to figure out why Adam sinned.

 

[JerryZ]

As I suggested in post 4.

If you will kindly give me the Catholic description of Original Sin, it will be easier to figure out why Adam sinned.

Did God not give them a command Not to eat the fruit from the tree?

The temptation: hmm the fruit is gooooood! it will give you superpowers! You will not die it will make you like God!
And when God asked Adam what he had done, what was his answer, “The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.”
Why blame the woman for HIS mistake?

What is the sin?

Pride? Disobbedience? Cowardice? All of the above?

 

[fred_conty]

As I suggested in post 4.

If you will kindly give me the Catholic description of Original Sin, it will be easier to figure out why Adam sinned.

CCC 417
Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called “original sin.”

Fred

 

[HansTrappist]

Hi Everybody,

My issue that I struggle is this: Why would God create humans defective?

To help explain, I will borrow a few thoughts from CS Lewis.

In Mere Christianity, Lewis writes that we are all as a man caught in the current of a river; being pulled under, no doubt, by the weight of our sins. Elsewhere, he writes that we all are on a slippery slope, always having a force pull us away from God (and further into sin): that sinning is a sort of default position that we are in, and that even with considerable effort, most of us do not conform even to the basic rudiments God’s moral law (and [almost?] no one can conform perfectly, even with monumental effort).

Now there can be no doubt that we are all drowning; but why would God have us be born, as it were, caught in the undertow of a river? We all are indeed on a large and slippery slope, but we were placed there from birth and without our choosing. To slide down and away from God would to me seem rather like placing a beloved pet on a wall of ice and then to watch it unsuccessfully struggle toward its master. Now the master, to be sure, has a plan for its rescue; but the poor helpless creature does not like where it is, and can hardly be blamed for its present slide toward the precipice below.

Why would we be forced into such a dreadful predicament? For it seems very much that we are forced into it; pushed onto the terrible slope from which we must then be rescued. There is real evil that comes from each of our hearts: but what to say to the objector who points out that we were made that way; that we can no more choose to have evil thoughts and impulses than to have sweat glands or hair. Now we need not, and should not, act on these impulses; but to me the whole thing looks horribly cruel - rather like a parent dropping his child in a pool of mud, and later chastising the child for being dirty. No doubt it would be high foolishness not to take the offer to become clean; that is not the issue.

I can honestly say that I made real efforts to find an answer, but found nothing satisfying.

Thank you, and may God bless you all.

Appendix

One can of course answer our predicament by the often cited (and traditional) answer that humans were initially made right, and they freely rejected perfection in favor of its opposite. This is a fine defense for the first humans. They were given God’s presence and the unspeakable delights that came with it: in the face of all of that, they still turned away. For their idiocy we are all living in the shambles of a fallen world. But we still have the problem of the evil impulses (to lie, cheat, steal, lust, etc.) coming from our own hearts; it makes no sense (to me) that these should be inherited as well. Why not be given the same chance as the first humans were? We are told God loves us no less, and yet keeps us bound in original sin.

Perhaps for now there is no answer, and the best that can be done is to “Keep on. Do what you can” until our rescue is complete (after purgatory).

I think Christ answered this question in the Gospel of Matthew Chapter 13:24-30:

He put another parable before them, "The Kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. While everybody was asleep his enemy came, sowed darnel all among the wheat, and made off. When the new wheat sprouted and ripened, the darnel appeared as well. The owner’s servants went to him and said, “Sir, was it not good seed that you sowed in your field? If so, where does the darnel come from?” “Some enemy has done this” he answered. And the servants said, “Do you want us to go and weed it out?” But he said, “No, because when you weed out the darnel you might pull up the wheat with it. Let them both grow till the harvest; and at harvest time I shall say to the reapers: First collect the darnel and tie it in bundles to be burnt, then gather the wheat into my barn.”

 

[ActuarialNinja]

First off:

And why is your satisfaction with the answer the measure of its truthfulness?

When I say my situation is unsatisfying, I mean I tried to put together a truthful, coherent response to the objections raised in my original post, but I could not.

Originally Posted by grannymh:

If you would kindly give me the Catholic description of Original Sin, it then will be possible to place C.S. Lewis’ writings in context.

I believe my statement that “that humans were initially made right, and they freely rejected perfection in favor of its opposite” to be the Catholic position… certainly I see no grounds to disagree with that statement. And I do not want to go against Orthodoxy; it would be good if you can tell me how is my statement appreciably different from:

CCC 417
Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called “original sin.”

Thank you fred conty for the reference.

I’ve noticed some replies focusing of what mankind did during the first sin, or motives for doing it. I think I agree with pretty much all of the analysis above, but I am NOT asking these types of questions. The reason I don’t ask is ultimately because sin is an anti-rational act of the will; therefore not amenable to the powers of reason. Asking why Adam and Eve chose to sin would be a category mistake!

I’m asking why God would transfer this fallen state from the first Man and Woman to the rest of us. Adam and Eve fell; I get it! But why have us inherit concupiscence as well? Could God not either start over with a new race, or else have Adam’s descendants not have the same fallen condition. It would seem that Omnipotence would find either of these two options, or some other equally merciful option trivially easy to actualize.

I can only guess that God wishes us to be in this state for our ultimate good. Perhaps the type of creature we become by saying “no” to temptation is greater than what would have been if the fall did not happen.

 

[fred_conty]

First off:

When I say my situation is unsatisfying, I mean I tried to put together a truthful, coherent response to the objections raised in my original post, but I could not.

I believe my statement that “that humans were initially made right, and they freely rejected perfection in favor of its opposite” to be the Catholic position… certainly I see no grounds to disagree with that statement. And I do not want to go against Orthodoxy; it would be good if you can tell me how is my statement appreciably different from:

Thank you fred conty for the reference.

I’ve noticed some replies focusing of what mankind did during the first sin, or motives for doing it. I think I agree with pretty much all of the analysis above, but I am NOT asking these types of questions. The reason I don’t ask is ultimately because sin is an anti-rational act of the will; therefore not amenable to the powers of reason. Asking why Adam and Eve chose to sin would be a category mistake!

I’m asking why God would transfer this fallen state from the first Man and Woman to the rest of us. Adam and Eve fell; I get it! But why have us inherit concupiscence as well? Could God not either start over with a new race, or else have Adam’s descendants not have the same fallen condition. It would seem that Omnipotence would find either of these two options, or some other equally merciful option trivially easy to actualize.

I can only guess that God wishes us to be in this state for our ultimate good. Perhaps the type of creature we become by saying “no” to temptation is greater than what would have been if the fall did not happen.

To answer your question why he didn’t start over, I think we would agree that we might ask that question when we go home to our Father in heaven. But of course, by that time the question will lose its’ meaning probably.

So why didn’t he start over? I’ll give my best guess. Because knowing mankind, somebody would sin again and that might be messy. A non sinner marrying a sinner. What would that produce?

Would the child be in sin or not? And then multiply that by a few times down thru several generations. Some have the gifts and some don’t. That to me dosen’t sound very good. Especially when we consider what those gifts are and would make a great difference in people.

But it really is up to God. I personally think that was the right decision. But then I am somewhat prejudice since I trust in his divine mercy and goodness for us and always to chose what is best for us.

But then that is my thought, what is yours?

 

[grannymh]

Did God not give them a command Not to eat the fruit from the tree?

The temptation: hmm the fruit is gooooood! it will give you superpowers! You will not die it will make you like God!
And when God asked Adam what he had done, what was his answer, “The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.”
Why blame the woman for HIS mistake?

What is the sin?

Pride? Disobbedience? Cowardice? All of the above?

Thank you.

May I gently remind posters that I asked for a Catholic description…

The first comment in post 6 is “Did God not give them a command Not to eat the fruit from the tree?”

When seeking descriptive truth, Catholicism goes deeper than the cutesy children’s books where two naked people are standing amid trees with green leaves appropriately placed.

To understand the Catholic doctrines flowing from the first three chapters of Genesis, one has to have a clear idea of who God is, who Adam is, and the terms of their relationship. So, how will you begin the Catholic description of Original Sin?

 

[grannymh]

CCC 417
Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called “original sin.”

Fred

Thank you.

Actually, CCC 417 is part of a summary of the Catechism section which begins with CCC 355. If one is going to describe the Catholic understanding of Original Sin, one should start reading at the beginning. link:
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/355.htm
However, this serious reading can be done anytime.

Let us tie your answer with JerryZ post 6 and my reply, post 11. As long as you are in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, please take a look at CCC 396. scborromeo.org/ccc/para/396.htm This is the basic description for the relationship between God and Adam. For some reason, Catholics tend to overlook who God is and who Adam is when they use analogies to describe Original Sin.

Obviously, if there is a “command” within the “Garden of Eden”, one needs to completely understand the foundation for this command. So how will you and JerryZ describe the requirements of Adam’s relationship to God?

 

[grannymh]

Originally Posted by grannymh:

If you would kindly give me the Catholic description of Original Sin, it then will be possible to place C.S. Lewis’ writings in context.

I believe my statement that “that humans were initially made right, and they freely rejected perfection in favor of its opposite” to be the Catholic position… certainly I see no grounds to disagree with that statement. And I do not want to go against Orthodoxy; it would be good if you can tell me how is my statement appreciably different from:

CCC 417
Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called “original sin.”

The difference is in the lack of details required by Orthodoxy.

I have some silly questions about lack of details. For example in this statement “that humans were initially made right” was Adam made “right” in the same way that God is “right”? Or could Adam wish he were as “right” as God? Or why would a rational person such as Adam reject having the perfection of God when he could be an equal God by eating some organic fruit?

One needs to be able to describe the relationship between Adam the creature and God the Creator before one can attempt to define Original Sin.

 

[grannymh]

To answer your question why he didn’t start over, I think we would agree that we might ask that question when we go home to our Father in heaven. But of course, by that time the question will lose its’ meaning probably.

So why didn’t he start over? I’ll give my best guess. Because knowing mankind, somebody would sin again and that might be messy. A non sinner marrying a sinner. What would that produce?

Would the child be in sin or not? And then multiply that by a few times down thru several generations. Some have the gifts and some don’t. That to me dosen’t sound very good. Especially when we consider what those gifts are and would make a great difference in people.

But it really is up to God. I personally think that was the right decision. But then I am somewhat prejudice since I trust in his divine mercy and goodness for us and always to chose what is best for us.

But then that is my thought, what is yours?

This thought comes from the first three chapters of Genesis. Here we have the origin of humankind starting with two first human parents. CCC 404 uses the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas to explain. The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man.” (Source: St. Thomas Aquinas, DeMalo 4, 1. Link: scborromeo.org/ccc/para/404.htm

Please note that CCC 404 also teaches: “But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature.”

 

[sophion]

So why didn’t he start over? I’ll give my best guess. Because knowing mankind, somebody would sin again and that might be messy. A non sinner marrying a sinner. What would that produce?

an innocent little baby?

Would the child be in sin or not?

of course not. why should it?

 

[sophion]

I’m asking why God would transfer this fallen state from the first Man and Woman to the rest of us. Adam and Eve fell; I get it! But why have us inherit concupiscence as well? Could God not either start over with a new race, or else have Adam’s descendants not have the same fallen condition. It would seem that Omnipotence would find either of these two options, or some other equally merciful option trivially easy to actualize.

I can only guess that God wishes us to be in this state for our ultimate good. Perhaps the type of creature we become by saying “no” to temptation is greater than what would have been if the fall did not happen.

Jews offer a very good explanation for the genesis story:
whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation5.html

In short:

1. death was a part of life from the very beginning, even before adam sinned.
2. No such thing as ‘original sin’.
3. Adam & Eve were expelled, not for sinning, but to prevent them from eating from the Tree of Life as well.

makes better sense than the newer christian version.

 

[edwest2]

Jews offer a very good explanation for the genesis story:
whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation5.html

In short:

1. death was a part of life from the very beginning, even before adam sinned.
2. No such thing as ‘original sin’.
3. Adam & Eve were expelled, not for sinning, but to prevent them from eating from the Tree of Life as well.

makes better sense than the newer christian version.

We are not Jewish. Church teaching trumps any other explanation.

Peace,
Ed

 

[sophion]

We are not Jewish. Church teaching trumps any other explanation.

then answer ninja’s questions:

But why have us inherit concupiscence as well? Could God not either start over with a new race, or else have Adam’s descendants not have the same fallen condition. It would seem that Omnipotence would find either of these two options, or some other equally merciful option trivially easy to actualize

if you can make sense of that then i will agree with you that it trumps the jews.

 

[grannymh]

then answer ninja’s questions:
But why have us inherit concupiscence as well? Could God not either start over with a new race, or else have Adam’s descendants not have the same fallen condition. It would seem that Omnipotence would find either of these two options, or some other equally merciful option trivially easy to actualize
if you can make sense of that then i will agree with you that it trumps the jews.

The basic difficulty with making some sense out of Original Sin is due to the obvious observation that many, not all, people cannot completely explain Original Sin as taught by the Catholic Church.

I have tried to lead posters to the necessary Catholic foundation for understanding Original Sin, but people are more interested in their own peripheral questions.

It is more fun to detour. Enjoy!

 

[sophion]

^ just answer the question, please.
no more excuses.

jews are able to explain the genesis story in simple sensible terms. why can you?