Inquiry on Original Sin

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^ just answer the question, please.
no more excuses.

jews are able to explain the genesis story in simple sensible terms. why can you?
In my humble opinion, the Catholic doctrines (plural intended) flowing from the first three chapters of Genesis cannot be reduced to a media sound bite of “simple sensible terms” to fit personal interpretations of those chapters.

Paragraphs 355-421 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition are tough to read because they refer to Divine Revelation which is safeguarded within Catholic Church doctrines. Thus, peripheral questions are often preferred.

There are plenty of posters who can answer the peripheral questions. I am not needed in that area. 😃

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.
 
^ so the answers…if there really are answers…must be somewhere in that big pile of paperwork. 😃

great. :rolleyes:

must be one of the reasons why churches are emptying.
 
Jews offer a very good explanation for the genesis story:
whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation5.html

In short:
  1. death was a part of life from the very beginning, even before adam sinned.
  2. No such thing as ‘original sin’.
  3. Adam & Eve were expelled, not for sinning, but to prevent them from eating from the Tree of Life as well.
makes better sense than the newer christian version.
  1. True they were created mortal but according to Genesis 2 they were free to eat from the Tree of Life, just not the Tree of Knowledge. This would make sense if God intended for them to ‘earn’ their knowledge (basically mature and grow in their knowledge of God naturally and in fellowship with him as teacher).
  2. Only if you take God’s admonishment of Adam as being for him only. But that doesn’t jive with the state of humanity as it is today. The curse from Genesis 3:17-19 holds true to every man up to the present day. The punishment of pains during childbearing from Genesis 3:16 still holds true today for every woman.
  3. God expelled Adam and Eve precisely because they sinned and in their fallen state he didn’t want them becoming immortal just yet. Thus the wages (result) of sin is death. This opened the door for a plan of redemption - starting with Covenants and completed with Christ.
 
  1. True they were created mortal but according to Genesis 2 they were free to eat from the Tree of Life, just not the Tree of Knowledge. This would make sense if God intended for them to ‘earn’ their knowledge (basically mature and grow in their knowledge of God naturally and in fellowship with him as teacher).
The Orthodox and Protestants both believe that Death only came into the world after Adam & Eve ate the apple. Jew believe Adam & Eve was meant to die the moment they were created.

So you are saying Catholics agree with the jews?
  1. Only if you take God’s admonishment of Adam as being for him only. But that doesn’t jive with the state of humanity as it is today. The curse from Genesis 3:17-19 holds true to every man up to the present day. The punishment of pains during childbearing from Genesis 3:16 still holds true today for every woman.
but the curses mentioned were merely about the snake, childbirth and the ground. nothing there about inherited flaw, taint, tendency to sin or state of sin.
  1. God expelled Adam and Eve precisely because they sinned and in their fallen state he didn’t want them becoming immortal just yet. Thus the wages (result) of sin is death. This opened the door for a plan of redemption - starting with Covenants and completed with Christ.
Genesis 3:
*
22 Then the Lord God said, “Look, the human beings[e] have become like us, knowing both good and evil. What if they reach out, take fruit from the tree of life, and eat it? Then they will live forever!” 23 So the Lord God banished them from the Garden of Eden, and he sent Adam out to cultivate the ground from which he had been made. 24 After sending them out, the Lord God stationed mighty cherubim to the east of the Garden of Eden. And he placed a flaming sword that flashed back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.*
where does it say there that expulsion was for sinning? the only concern mentioned is about eating the tree of life. the jews are right. they are driven out so they cant eat the other tree as well.
 
The Orthodox and Protestants both believe that Death only came into the world after Adam & Eve ate the apple. Jew believe Adam & Eve was meant to die the moment they were created.

So you are saying Catholics agree with the jews?
I am saying your two statements “Jews believe they were mortal.” and “Christians believe the consequence for their actions was death.” are really the same. Immortality was always an option - hence the Tree of Life. Death only came to Adam and Eve after they ate from the Tree of Knowledge and God kicked them out of Eden. God doomed man in Genesis 3:19 “For you are dirt, and to dirt you shall return.”
but the curses mentioned were merely about the snake, childbirth and the ground. nothing there about inherited flaw, taint, tendency to sin or state of sin.
All things that mankind still suffers from. The tendency to sin was in Adam. Eve sinned out of stupidity (she was tricked) and she confessed to God “The serpent tricked me and I ate…”. Adam willfully took the fruit then blamed his actions on Eve. “That woman you made for me, she gave me the fruit.”
Genesis 3:
*
22 Then the Lord God said, “Look, the human beings[e] have become like us, knowing both good and evil. What if they reach out, take fruit from the tree of life, and eat it? Then they will live forever!” 23 So the Lord God banished them from the Garden of Eden, and he sent Adam out to cultivate the ground from which he had been made. 24 After sending them out, the Lord God stationed mighty cherubim to the east of the Garden of Eden. And he placed a flaming sword that flashed back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.*
where does it say there that expulsion was for sinning? the only concern mentioned is about eating the tree of life. the jews are right. they are driven out so they cant eat the other tree as well.
Cause and effect.
Then the Lord God said, “Look, the human beings[e] have become like us, knowing both good and evil. What if they reach out, take fruit from the tree of life, and eat it? Then they will live forever!” 23 So the Lord God banished them from the Garden of Eden"
Their expulsion was a direct result of their sin. Had they not sinned, they wouldn’t have been expelled. They could have freely ate of any other tree in the garden and remained there with God.

~peace
 
The tendency to sin was in Adam. Eve sinned out of stupidity (she was tricked) and she confessed to God “The serpent tricked me and I ate…”. Adam willfully took the fruit then blamed his actions on Eve. “That woman you made for me, she gave me the fruit.”
thing is they sinned before eating the fruit. it wasnt a taint that children inherits from their parents. it was their imperfection. the jews were right. imperfection leads to sin. 👍
Cause and effect.

Their expulsion was a direct result of their sin. Had they not sinned, they wouldn’t have been expelled. They could have freely ate of any other tree in the garden and remained there with God.

~peace
that gives me an idea… 😃
 
thing is they sinned before eating the fruit. it wasnt a taint that children inherits from their parents. it was their imperfection. the jews were right. imperfection leads to sin. 👍

that gives me an idea… 😃
Where did they sin before eating the fruit ?
 
did not jesus say that you have already sinned when you entertain the idea in your head? the moment they decided, its already a sin.
You’re taking a moral admonishment by Jesus to get your emotions and heart under control to avoid sin and twisting it to suit your argument.

Adam and Eve did not sin by considering whether or not to disobey God. They sinned by choosing to disobey God. That was the first sin in Genesis.

~peace
 
EXACTLY! they made that choice right before consuming the apple.
they did not have ‘original sin’ and yet they have chosen to disobey. BOTH of them.
To sin, one must know it’s a sin. One must choose to sin. One must know the consequences. Adam and Even knew this. They sinned. One time.

They knew eating from the the tree was a sin. The chose to eat from it. They knew death was the consequence. One sin.

Their sin was the Original Sin that took them out of favor with God and put them under the curse because of their Original Sin. Since we’re born from them, we are under the curse. Hence why all the stuff that God cursed Adam and Eve with , we suffer from today.

I’m done posting about this. Somebody else can pick up. This is just turning into tedium for naught. Your mind is already made up.
 
speak for yourself.
Here, I’ll speak for you:
Jews offer a very good explanation for the genesis story:
makes better sense than the newer christian version.
jews are able to explain the genesis story in simple sensible terms. why can you?
so the answers…if there really are answers
the jews are right.
they are driven out so they cant eat the other tree as well.
the jews were right. imperfection leads to sin
I offered a very good explanation of the Christian view of the Genesis story. You reject it. You are predisposed from the onset to believe the Jewish version over the Christian version which really surprises me since Judaism is a “religion” and you don’t believe in religions. But you’ll sure take sides and reject a perfectly valid explanation from another religion.

It’s not a personal attack, but at some point we all have to agree you got your answer and let’s move on.

I’ll go back and address Ninja’s question.
 
I offered a very good explanation of the Christian view of the Genesis story. You reject it.
and why would i accept it if it makes no sense? adam & eve BOTH sinned even though they had no defect.

you think i’m the one who has to keep accepting stuff. what about you? What if you have been sincerely wrong in your deepest beliefs?

what you said is more applicable to you. you are the one who has things to lose. :rolleyes:
You are predisposed from the onset to believe the Jewish version over the Christian version which really surprises me since Judaism is a “religion” and you don’t believe in religions.
its just a story. do you have to believe that star wars really happened to make sense of its plots?
 
Hi Everybody,

My issue that I struggle is this: Why would God create humans defective?

To help explain, I will borrow a few thoughts from CS Lewis.

In Mere Christianity, Lewis writes that we are all as a man caught in the current of a river; being pulled under, no doubt, by the weight of our sins. Elsewhere, he writes that we all are on a slippery slope, always having a force pull us away from God (and further into sin): that sinning is a sort of default position that we are in, and that even with considerable effort, most of us do not conform even to the basic rudiments God’s moral law (and [almost?] no one can conform perfectly, even with monumental effort).

Now there can be no doubt that we are all drowning; but why would God have us be born, as it were, caught in the undertow of a river? We all are indeed on a large and slippery slope, but we were placed there from birth and without our choosing. To slide down and away from God would to me seem rather like placing a beloved pet on a wall of ice and then to watch it unsuccessfully struggle toward its master. Now the master, to be sure, has a plan for its rescue; but the poor helpless creature does not like where it is, and can hardly be blamed for its present slide toward the precipice below.

Why would we be forced into such a dreadful predicament? For it seems very much that we are forced into it; pushed onto the terrible slope from which we must then be rescued. There is real evil that comes from each of our hearts: but what to say to the objector who points out that we were made that way; that we can no more choose to have evil thoughts and impulses than to have sweat glands or hair. Now we need not, and should not, act on these impulses; but to me the whole thing looks horribly cruel - rather like a parent dropping his child in a pool of mud, and later chastising the child for being dirty. No doubt it would be high foolishness not to take the offer to become clean; that is not the issue.

I can honestly say that I made real efforts to find an answer, but found nothing satisfying.

Thank you, and may God bless you all.

Appendix

One can of course answer our predicament by the often cited (and traditional) answer that humans were initially made right, and they freely rejected perfection in favor of its opposite. This is a fine defense for the first humans. They were given God’s presence and the unspeakable delights that came with it: in the face of all of that, they still turned away. For their idiocy we are all living in the shambles of a fallen world. But we still have the problem of the evil impulses (to lie, cheat, steal, lust, etc.) coming from our own hearts; it makes no sense (to me) that these should be inherited as well. Why not be given the same chance as the first humans were? We are told God loves us no less, and yet keeps us bound in original sin.

Perhaps for now there is no answer, and the best that can be done is to “Keep on. Do what you can” until our rescue is complete (after purgatory).
Just my $0.02 - perhaps this will help.

God chose a redemptive plan that suits his Desire. The same way he chose a peasant girl to be the Mother of Christ, a fisherman that denied him 3 times to be the head of the Church and a Roman Jew that was killing Christians to be an Apostle. If the end result is - in His wisdom - the most effective and desirable way to show his Mercy, then so be it.

Once the first Parents sinned, it separated “creation” from “creator”. He could have re-created us but that would not have shown much love. “****, they ate the fruit. Send two angels to whack them and let’s try this again.” Instead, to show “love” for us, he gave us a way out. In fact, according to Paul (and the story of Job), God won’t even let us be tempted beyond what we can bear 1 Cor 10:13. So even though we’re under this curse, he constantly protects us, provides us an alternative to the sin itself, and even provides us with forgiveness and redemption when we do choose poorly (and rewards us for good behavior - just like any loving parent).

Remember, even though he kicked Adam and Eve out of Eden , he set them up and continued to walk with them after the Fall, just as he does with us.

This is about as close as I can get to why he wouldn’t have just started over.
 
God gave Adam and Eve an instruction to not do something. Whatever the fruit was, it was clear to Eve that it was pleasant to look at and good for food.

bible.cc/genesis/3-6.htm

So what does the Church say about Original Sin? And why did Jesus have to be born and die as a sacrifice for many so that sins may be forgiven?

"Adam and Eve: Real People

"It is equally impermissible to dismiss the story of Adam and Eve and the fall (Gen. 2–3) as a fiction. A question often raised in this context is whether the human race descended from an original pair of two human beings (a teaching known as monogenism) or a pool of early human couples (a teaching known as polygenism).

"In this regard, Pope Pius XII stated: “When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parents of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now, it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the teaching authority of the Church proposed with regard to original sin which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam in which through generation is passed onto all and is in everyone as his own” (Humani Generis 37).

“The story of the creation and fall of man is a true one, even if not written entirely according to modern literary techniques. The Catechism states, “The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents” (CCC 390).”

Peace,
Ed
 
So what does the Church say about Original Sin? And why did Jesus have to be born and die as a sacrifice for many so that sins may be forgiven?
Original Sin shattered man’s relationship with God. Adam, as mere man, was not on the level of God and so could not make adequate reparation for this denial of his Creator. Therefore, Jesus Christ as True Man took on Adam’s burden of Original Sin and as True God, He was able to reconcile humanity with divinity.

Thank you, Jesus!

Baptism erases our contracted state of Original Sin (deprived of original holiness and justice), however, the consequences of Adam’s sin remain as human nature is now wounded but not destroyed.
 
I see that sophion and others had some discussion on Jewish interpretations on Original Sin and the Fall of Man. I will treat these as an interesting aside, but will not comment on them directly because I personally take the Catholic Orthodoxy position to be correct. Interpretations of other faiths are fun to discuss… but do nothing to help with my original question.

There have also been some interesting speculations, most notably by fred conty; that man would have sinned anyways, and would therefore cause all sorts of difficulties. These may be true, but the problem is they presuppose that Original Sin is heritable; and that does not help because the reason for the heritability of Original Sin is what I am after!

Grannymh wrote that my description of original son and the fall of man is not so much wrong as it is incomplete (or maybe I misunderstand?):
The difference is in the lack of details required by Orthodoxy.
Of course I cannot sum up many paragraphs of Catholic teaching in a sentence without leaving something out! But even a more complete understanding of Original Sin and and the Fall of Man does not help in solving the dilemma. Then again, the CCC does say that the inheritance of sin is not fully understood:
CCC 404:
“the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand.”
It appears increasingly likely that my request for an answer will be not be granted in this life. 😦

Thank you all for attempting to help me answer this difficult topic, but it seems to me that if the authors of the CCC cannot find an answer, my own little attempts will very likely end up futile.
 
I see that sophion and others had some discussion on Jewish interpretations on Original Sin and the Fall of Man. I will treat these as an interesting aside, but will not comment on them directly because I personally take the Catholic Orthodoxy position to be correct. Interpretations of other faiths are fun to discuss… but do nothing to help with my original question.

There have also been some interesting speculations, most notably by fred conty; that man would have sinned anyways, and would therefore cause all sorts of difficulties. These may be true, but the problem is they presuppose that Original Sin is heritable; and that does not help because the reason for the heritability of Original Sin is what I am after!

Grannymh wrote that my description of original son and the fall of man is not so much wrong as it is incomplete (or maybe I misunderstand?):

Of course I cannot sum up many paragraphs of Catholic teaching in a sentence without leaving something out! But even a more complete understanding of Original Sin and and the Fall of Man does not help in solving the dilemma. Then again, the CCC does say that the inheritance of sin is not fully understood:

It appears increasingly likely that my request for an answer will be not be granted in this life. 😦

Thank you all for attempting to help me answer this difficult topic, but it seems to me that if the authors of the CCC cannot find an answer, my own little attempts will very likely end up futile.
I just walked in the door and need to check back posts. However, it is the “transmission” by propagation which is the mystery. The essentials of Original Sin can be understood in this life.
 
Grannymh wrote that my description of original son and the fall of man is not so much wrong as it is incomplete (or maybe I misunderstand?):

snip

Of course I cannot sum up many paragraphs of Catholic teaching in a sentence without leaving something out! But even a more complete understanding of Original Sin and and the Fall of Man does not help in solving the dilemma. Then again, the CCC does say that the inheritance of sin is not fully understood:

It appears increasingly likely that my request for an answer will be not be granted in this life. 😦
Please accept my apology for not being as clear as I thought I was. I was hoping that some of the posters would take time to figure out the basics, not necessarily every peripheral speculative detail, of Original Sin. I failed in that hope big time. :o

No one needs to sum up many paragraphs of Catholic teaching in a sentence without leaving something out.

One needs to start with the fact that there was a relationship (friendship) between Adam, the creature, and God, his Creator. In order to maintain that relationship, Adam had to live this friendship in free submission to his Creator. This should be common sense since Adam is not an equal god.

Back in post 9, there is this:

"I believe my statement that “that humans were initially made right, and they freely rejected perfection in favor of its opposite” to be the Catholic position… certainly I see no grounds to disagree with that statement. And I do not want to go against Orthodoxy; it would be good if you can tell me how is my statement appreciably different from:

CCC 417
Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called “original sin.”

This looked like you were going from human nature to the effect of Original Sin without saying what Adam actually did. The reason I was curious about Adam being initially right is that some posters on CAF consider Adam as an innocent idiot. I see now that I should not have made my questioning about being right so general and so broad that it would cover a number of items in Adam’s story. Still, I was hoping that someone would recognize Adam’s human nature for what it is.

When one starts with the basic relationship between Adam and God, then the idea
that Adam “freely rejected perfection in favor of its opposite” does not relate to the Catholic position that Adam’s sin would evolve from his desire to have equal perfection with God or over God. Adam’s sin was that he preferred himself to God and by that act scorned God. This act broke the relationship between Adam and God. Adam, the created one, was meant to live in friendship with God by freely living his life in submission to his Creator. Adam disobeyed this requirement for a relationship with God. All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in His goodness. Many see Adam’s sin as one of pride.
 
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