Inquisition, Crusades, Indulgences ....

[eureka525]

Hm… my issues with indulgences aren’t a matter of comfort level, I don’t think religion is or ought to be easy and point taken about the “Limerickists”, but I did say all-forgiving to those who had been ‘fervent and faithful’. I guess I’m just wondering how indulgences started and what basis they had in scripture or if they are a ‘man-made’ facet of the church.

And I should add that if they are in fact ‘man-made’ that wouldn’t mean to me that one should not subscribe to them because I do recognize the fact that man’s interpretation of God’s Word is obviously a key part of religion. Just looking for origins.

The basic concept seems fair to me that one should commit good works, etc. to pay penance for wrong-doings and there’s no doubt in my mind that God will weigh those. But how can someone else here on Earth determine for me what sort of works to do and how much of these said works will compensate for my sins? Isn’t this what God will do upon our deaths?

 

[Greg27]

As an Anglican, Greg, how would you grade your own church in your opinion as to whether or not someone ought to join it?

There are aspects of the church I like but there are other aspects I don’t like. There are clearly some problems for example in the Anglican church in the debate between conservatives and liberals. Despite my earlier criticisms of the Catholic Church, there are some things about the church which are quite positive (such as the church’s embrace of human rights thinking in the Post WWII period). The problem I have with the CC though is issues which need to be examined are debated are ‘settled’ by an appeal to infallibility, which I simply don’t think is ever possible where ethical and moral matters are concerned. I think we need to look at something using reason and evidence combined with a careful consideration of tradition (and if the debate is theological, the Bible and Christian theological reflection on what the Bible means and teaches). The approach I sometimes see from highly conservative or fundamentalist Christians towards matters of faith and morality reminds me of the ‘Daleks’ in Dr Who, who demand others to ‘obey’ or be ‘exterminated’, extermination being in real life expulsion or excommunication from the faith community.

What troubles me about the CC in this is the leadership at the highest levels of the Church appears to have endorsed such thinking and movements in the CC, such as movements like Opus Dei and the like. I don’t accept the crackpot conspiracy theories surrounding these groups, but in my view a church should not align itself too closely with a political or moral agenda on the left or the right. The CC seems to have gone back to the Pre-Vatican II days of backing right-wing, conservative and authoritarian style of life and politics, as I see in the way the church’s leaders in the US (and to a certain extent in Australia and Europe) align themselves very closely with conservative, right wing political groups and agendas.

I would prefer to see a more rational and democratic approach to matters on morality and on policy questions (such as how to hold sex abusers in the church accountable for example). I would say I am more impressed with the way Protestant churches like the Anglicans have handled this matter than the way the RCC has done so far.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

We know that these things happened in Catholic history. Are these stumbling blocks to joining the church today? I hear alot of falsehoods concerning these issues so I wonder what people think happened in these instances so we can determine what is truth and what is false. I always hear that Catholics kept people from the bible and burned bibles to keep them out of peoples hands. I hope that we get some good accusations and I hope we have some history scholars to help discern the truth. Lets let her rip.

When I converted to the Holy Catholic Faith, I had no problem with the Holy Inquisition, Holy Crusades or Indulgences.

The Book My Catholic Faith, states,
The Apostles granted indulgences, St. Paul writes of a Corinithian who had shown such signs of true repentance that his penance had been remitted. “Whom you pardon anything, I also pardon. Indeed, what I have forgiven-if I have forgiven anything-I have done for your sakes, in the person of Christ.” (2 Cor. 2:10)

 

[Sword_Brethren]

I always hear that Catholics … burned bibles to keep them out of peoples hands.

If they were brunt, it was because they were false translations of the Holy Bible. Also, for the most part of western history the common people did not know how to read.

Acts Of Apostles 19:19
And many of them who had followed curious arts, brought together their books, and burnt them before all; and counting the price of them, they found the money to be fifty thousand pieces of silver.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

I
And it was indulgences, not inquisitions or wars, that led to the painful Reformatoin and the splintering of the West.

I don’t agree the it was just the abuses of Indulgences. There has been corruption in the Church since the beginning. After all, one of the Apostles was a thief and a traitor, Judas. There have been many bad priests from Arius to Luther. The heresy of Arius spread rapidly, as did the protestant revolt. Revolt all comes down to pride and disobedience.

 

[distracted]

Hi distracted, it’s a real misnomer to think that everyone who disagrees with Catholic theology feels that way because of misunderstanding. I know very very bright Protestants and Orthodox better-educated in theological matters than humble yours truly here and they reject these teachings. I fully understand indulgences inside and out, used to even practice them, reject them now. I’m not uneducated or poorly-catechized. I just don’t believe in or agree with them. We have to admit, Martin Luther, Martin Bucer, Calvin, Cranmer and the rest all were theologians and geniuses who very thoroughly understood these things and openly rejected them for what they believed to be good reasons. It is possible to be a smart guy and disagree

well, if they understood the things i understand they would nevr leave the RCC

and if they dont’ understand them thoroughly its likely cuz they dont want to… probably just wnat an excuse to fornicate or something… I have no respect for Martin Luther after reading the book The Facts About Luther… His own words … do him in… and the author of that book quotes him liberally… (no pun intended)

If you can’t find Jesus in the very real … .tangible Presence of Christ… duringthe Mass and whenever else you want to be with Him There…

you certainly aren’t going to find Him anywhere else… and if you dont find Jesus…

 

[distracted]

that’s simply not true. Martin Luther was intellegent but did not truly know all of these things as you say. He was a mere humble Augustinian Priest. It was his misguided pride that ultimately led him into heresy. He had plenty of good points to make but his method of deployment was unorthodox and quite radical at the time. He was no biblical scholar at all. Had he truly known the truth then he would be held quite culpable for his radical actions and frankly I wouldn’t want to be him in front of the Lord. None of us are so impressively intelligent that we can trump Jesus Christ himself, who established the Church and set out the guidelines for all to follow. Just because bad men and women do bad things and make bad choices doesn’t mean we aren’t supposed to follow the teachings of the Church. There is a truth, not many, therefore there are plenty of folks misleading and being misled. At best we can hope for their salvation through the mercy of God who knows their hearts. I say at best because we do not even know the final destiny of ourselves because ***we are very effective at deceiving ourselves. *** Only God knows our heart even better than we do. A mind compared to god is infinitely rediculous to compare and why there are so many prideful academians today that refuse to admit the fact that a belief in a super being is plausible. No, they choose themselves to be mini-gods instead. It gives them there own ability to create their own heaven, and thus their own truth, which is limited to this world because they are of the this world and not of God…

:clapping::clapping::clapping:

 

[distracted]

My problem is not so much with the Crusades, the Inquisition or Indulgences, as much as all three involved serious mistakes by the church. They go back centuries, except that indulgences may be making a comeback.

My problem is with the insistence of the Church on total acceptance of all the doctrines and dogmas as taught by the Church. There are millions of us who want the freedom to think more freely without feeling like outcasts. We find that some of the teachings are simply unacceptable to us in these modern times.

and then others find your teachings unacceptable… start their own church… and then others find that new church’s teachings unacceptable… and so on and so on forever… what part of There is only ONE Church do you not understand?

 . We need a 'big tent' church with a greater tolerance for different opinions and not the necessity of uniform, straight-jacket belief.

uh… hello… We Do have… its called The Separated Brethren … Protestantism…

and we can all see what kind of UNITY we have because of… the 44,000 different denoms out there… all teaching different stuff…

JEsus taught that it was UNITY that would show the world HE was / is real…

St John 17:20

I’ve been a devout Catholic for many years… daily Mass and everything… I hardly feel strait jacketed… and if i did… i certainly dont look upon any of the non-Cath churches settin me free… I was in those churches yrs ago… they did NOTHING for me… at least nothing substantial or tangible or… long term

i began to know and be intimate with Jesus when i got into HIS CHURCH…

There is only ONE…

count them… ONE…

JEsus said that the gates of Hell would not prevail over His Church…

not church - es

 

[distracted]

Indulgences, on the other hand, are bit of a problem for me. That is not to say that I would not become a Catholic solely because of them, but rather it gives me pause. Of course, not being Catholic, I’m sure I don’t yet fully understand them.

join the club… even we Catholics dont understand… I understand better than i did yrs ago… but i wonder if i still fully u/stand… The way i u/stand is this: People are in Purg suffering cuz of the damage to their souls that their sins caused… They are forgiven but not purified… Big diffrence… so when we offer up Masses for them, (etc) they are released from Purg sooner… Also our sufferings offered up for them… help… it means that we suffer in their place… we become “other christs” which i feel is one of the most beautiful things the Church teaches… the fact that we can do this kind of charity for our loved ones (or whomever)…
The thing i have trouble with sometimes (but accept just the same) is the thing about giving a stipend to the priest… It seems the priest could get quite “wealthy” - at least in comparison to some of the members of parish … if he offered up a lot of Masses … and i always thought the priest was supposed to take a vow of poverty…

***anyone??? ***

The concept that God would not be all-forgiving upon our death if we had been fervent and faithful in life and truly remorseful for the wrongs we had committed against Him seems very contrary to the teachings I’m accustomed to hearing.

Christians dying in a state of grace are forgiven but again… just because u r forgiven doesn’t mean you are pure enough to enter Heaven… where no impure thing will enter (Rev 21:27)… If your son broke your neighbor’s window… u would forgive him immediately… because he is your son and you love him and you know he didn’t know better… but still… regardless of forgivness, you would still, if you are a good father… require that he pay for the window… Since he is a child and cannot pay the whle thing… you help him (Jesus)… and if he is not done paying for it by the time he… [whatever] … well, you allow him more time (Purgatory) to “work out the debt” as in “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12)

Also, the concept that other sinful humans can determine for me what actions I must complete in order to have my sins purged, seems contrary to the teachings I’m accustomed to hearing.

Cathlics dont believe this way… the teachings that come thro the Church… do exactly that… come thro the Church… thro the pope … the councils… from Jesus Christ himself…

Jesus didn’t go to Heaven and leave us orphans… He promised to be with us always… and He is with us in the Real PResence… The reason the Church cannot fail in teaching the absolute complete Truth is that Jesus is the one doing the teaching… He never left us totally when He ascended… (St Mt 28:20 etc…)

I pray you find time to spend with JEsus in the Real Presence… doing that really helped me to understand the Church better… probably better than anything else other than the Mass itself… frequent Mass

Also, scriptural basis for purgatory? I presume that is where one would go if not enough indulgences were completed in life?

thats where people go when they are not yet purified sufficiently for Heaven… IF an impure person arrived in Heaven… it would no longer be Heaven…

I heard somewhere (haven’t confirmed whether this is official church teaching yet) that the souls in PUrgatory gather around the tabernacles in the Churches, where JEsus’ Real PResence abides 24/7… I totally beleive this… cuz i’v spent a lot of time There… can’t prove it to anyone who needs solid proof but i “know” it just the same…

it makes sense… They aren’t ready for Heaven, aren’t going to Hell… the in-between place would be in between, in the very Real Presnece of Christ, a Presence most Christians seem to ignore during their lifetimes… … so maybe that’s why they spend so long there after death… Some saint said the avg stay there is 40 yrs…

the bible:

1 Cor 3:13
Maccabbees 12:44
St Mt 18:23 (torture until the debt is paid)
St Mt 12:32 (forgivness in the next age)

 

[distracted]

). The problem I have with the CC though is issues which need to be examined are debated are ‘settled’ by an appeal to infallibility, which I simply don’t think is ever possible where ethical and moral matters are concerned.

Jesus saidthat the gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church… yet He knew that humans would be the teachers in that Church when HE was gone… yet He never was “gone” totally… His Real Presence still abides in the Catholic Church dont u think that Jesus is strong enough to keep his priests, bishops and the pope in line?? God has his ways of protecting the Church…

I would prefer to see a more rational and democratic approach to matters on morality and on policy questions (such as how to hold sex abusers in the church accountable for example). I would say I am more impressed with the way Protestant churches like the Anglicans have handled this matter than the way the RCC has done so far.

democratic?? Look what happend in France in the 1790s… wehn the people took control… they murdered … .i thnk 17,000 people by the guilottine … and caused much chaos and confusion… Look at the election of 08… where someone once called Most Pro Abortion Senator won…

i dont trust the majority… not one bit…

Jesus did not set up a “democratic” Church… HE set up His church the way he set it up…

When he walked the E arth .He was the ONE head of his Church… as He still is… with 12 human apostles running things… and carrying on in His absence… Why is it surprising that things are like that to this day?

It just makes logical sense that Jesus would 1) establish ONE Church 2) that humans would disagree with it… (seeing as how human nature is rebellious) 3) that regardless of human opinion, fickle as that always is… the Church would be virtually uncahnged in Her moral teachings throughout the centuries…)

Up until 1930 - for example - all “churches” were against artif birth control…

Now only the Catholic Church stands strong against it…

 

[eureka525]

Christians dying in a state of grace are forgiven but again… just because u r forgiven doesn’t mean you are pure enough to enter Heaven… where no impure thing will enter (Rev 21:27)… If your son broke your neighbor’s window… u would forgive him immediately… because he is your son and you love him and you know he didn’t know better… but still… regardless of forgivness, you would still, if you are a good father… require that he pay for the window… Since he is a child and cannot pay the whle thing… you help him (Jesus)… and if he is not done paying for it by the time he… [whatever] … well, you allow him more time (Purgatory) to “work out the debt” as in “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12)

Thank you for the metaphor, this break down actually makes a lot of sense and is certainly a more hands-on approach to understanding this concept!

Cathlics dont believe this way… the teachings that come thro the Church… do exactly that… come thro the Church… thro the pope … the councils… from Jesus Christ himself… Jesus didn’t go to Heaven and leave us orphans… He promised to be with us always… and He is with us in the Real PResence… The reason the Church cannot fail in teaching the absolute complete Truth is that Jesus is the one doing the teaching… He never left us totally when He ascended… (St Mt 28:20 etc…)

Does this mean that the belief is that Jesus or the Holy Spirit is acting directly through the pope, councils, etc.? Or are the Pope, etc. believed to be acting on behalf of Christ?

ps-Thanks for the Scriptures too

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

There’s plenty of arrogance to go around I think in all denominations, so you’re right there. But I genuinely think Luther felt compelled by his conscience to sever ties with the Church and reform from without rather than from within because he felt he couldn’t do it from within. Exurge Domine put a damper on that

Indulgences, according to almost every historian you read on both sides of the religious aisle, were the real hot button issue and the catalyst. Tetzel and company were flat out selling a hunk of paper that amounted to a get out of purgatory free card for family, dead loved ones, and oneself. You’ll hear the spin in here “a donation was expected and requested but no one actually “sold” indulgences.” Poppycock. Indulgences were wrapped around the idea of purgatory, not being completely forgiven in reconciliation (just the guilt, not the satisfaction), and Luther was not the first person to find fault with this teaching and those surrounding it. Hus was double-crossed by the Church after being promised safe passage only to get executed for making similar criticisms toward Rome earlier.

You’re correct that authority, corruption, the papacy being deeply entrenched in the politics and governance of European kingdoms, the rise of nation-states, and many other things played a part.

The Orthodox Church in the East never had a Reformation. Something always interesting to note.

I don’t agree the it was just the abuses of Indulgences. There has been corruption in the Church since the beginning. After all, one of the Apostles was a thief and a traitor, Judas. There have been many bad priests from Arius to Luther. The heresy of Arius spread rapidly, as did the protestant revolt. Revolt all comes down to pride and disobedience.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

This is pretty much what you said before so I’ll say it again, too, respectfully–not all people come to the conclusions you’ve come to. You talk about how if people don’t find Jesus in the Eucharist they won’t find Him anywhere. Great point. Anglicans believe the Real Presence of the Saviour is in the Eucharist. So do Lutherans. So do Orthodox. So do Old Catholics. So do Coptics.

You’re assuming that if someone doesn’t understand the Church it’s because they don’t want to. I know from very personal experience that the X-Files movie title “I want to Believe” is often a part of the ethos of someone struggling with Catholicism. I have spoken with and gotten to know several Catholics who were considering and did end up leaving the Catholic Church. They were well-reasoned, caring, thoughtful, sincere Christians without an agenda to hate Catholicism or not understand it.

I suggest you read more than one book about a man to come to a conclusion about that man. I have a library full of books on Luther and primary source material. I have most of Luther’s major works. I find him brilliant, a bit vulgar or overly-blunt at times, but generally a sincere, honorable man. He had plenty of flaws, no doubt.

You have come to the conclusion that Jesus can only be found inside the Catholic Church. God bless you in your decision. But others who don’t decide as you do are not always cookoo, uneducated, uncaring, willfully spiteful or anti-Catholic, just not in agreement. People like Jack Chick and some extremist Protestant wackos think as you do in reverse, that no one CAN find Christ in the Catholic Church and…if you can’t find him…well, you know…

well, if they understood the things i understand they would nevr leave the RCC

and if they dont’ understand them thoroughly its likely cuz they dont want to… probably just wnat an excuse to fornicate or something… I have no respect for Martin Luther after reading the book The Facts About Luther… His own words … do him in… and the author of that book quotes him liberally… (no pun intended)

If you can’t find Jesus in the very real … .tangible Presence of Christ… duringthe Mass and whenever else you want to be with Him There…

you certainly aren’t going to find Him anywhere else… and if you dont find Jesus…

 

[KathleenGee]

Guerny,

You have quite of library of books on the bad clergy of the Reformation. No wonder you have not been able to grasp the sharings on the indulgences.

I pulled out my ‘Lives of the Saints’, by Butler. In the meantime, while various parts of Europe were dealing with the Protestant Reformation, and people being forced to pick a side, Our Lady of Guadalupe appeared in Catholic Mexico, which at that time was the center for learning. Women and girls were given a right to an education hundreds of years before Americans were.

People don’t understand the nature and mission of the church. Each diocese is an entity to its own. It doesn’t mean that other dioceses are marching along lock and key. There were many faithful priests serving Our Lord and many saintly people. If you just have books on all the bad, then you are not getting a full picture because it is all just one sided.

But I do believe, yes, we are all working towards our salvation…woops that sounds like I am earning it…but we are all trying to be Christians every day, we are all on different levels – you can find this condition in many parishes so you have just certain people that you can really share with – but what is important is our fraternity of charity in Christ.

 

[distracted]

Thank you for the metaphor, this break down actually makes a lot of sense and is certainly a more hands-on approach to understanding this concept!

Does this mean that the belief is that Jesus or the Holy Spirit is acting directly through the pope, councils, etc.? Or are the Pope, etc. believed to be acting on behalf of Christ?

ps-Thanks for the Scriptures too

thank you… for being open to what is being said… So many protestants come here and … well, they just aren’t very open to learning… but i understand cuz they just dont know… and have been indoctrinated to believe… thus & so… about the RCC

I’ve studied the Church teachings for some time… but i am still learning myself… I did, however, get to the point where i stopped questiioning so many things… Wht a great place that is…

anyhow.as to your Q… i would say it is both… when i was in the process of coming back to my faith yrs ago… i investigated this thing about infallability of the pope… i too wondered (a lot) how the pope could be kept from teaching error… always. I, of all pepole, know how… human humans can be… :hypno:uch:

but then a priest directed me to spend time (as a penance after confession) with Jesus in the Real Presence, which as you may know, abides in the Catholic Church 24/7… That’s when i began to really… how do i say it?? progress in my understanding… and one day i got this thought that i am sure is in line w/ the Church’s teaching:

that the Real Presence of Chirst is primarily how the Church keeps from teaching error… meaning officially… doctrinally… There are a lot of leaders in the Church who teach error, either knowingly or o/wise… but i’m talking about the official teachings of the Church… ex cathedra proclamations… etc…

have u ever spend time @ the Real Presence??

especially the Exposed Sacrament… is .VERY… (words fail me but) interesting… .

 

[distracted]

from Wikipedia:

Exsurge Domine is a papal bull issued on 15 June 1520 by Pope Leo X in response to the teachings of Martin Luther in his 95 theses… Exsurge Domine is translated into English as Arise, O Lord.

While the bull did not directly condemn all the points of Luther’s doctrines, it did specifically demand that Luther retract 41 errors…within sixty days of its publication … This time expired on 10 December 1520, which was the day on which Luther burned his copy of the bull along with volumes of Canon law by the Elster Gate in Wittenberg. This book burning was in reaction to Johann Eck’s procedure of burning Luther’s books after he had published the bull in various places in Germany. As he burned his copy of the bull, Luther is reported to have said, “Because you have confounded the truth [or, the saints] of God, today the Lord confounds you. Into the fire with you!”

Because Luther refused to comply, the pope issued the bull Decet Romanum Pontificem on 3 January 1521, excommunicating him.

From Distracted:

Luther was a heretic…

just thought i’d say that cuz a lot of pepole seem to be forgetting that… the Father of Protestantism divided Christianity all for false beliefs…

totally in contradiction to Jesus’ words in st Jn 17:21

21 That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

 

[distracted]

This is pretty much what you said before so I’ll say it again, too, respectfully–not all people come to the conclusions you’ve come to. You talk about how if people don’t find Jesus in the Eucharist they won’t find Him anywhere. Great point. Anglicans believe the Real Presence of the Saviour is in the Eucharist. So do Lutherans. So do Orthodox. So do Old Catholics. So do Coptics.

You’re assuming that if someone doesn’t understand the Church it’s because they don’t want to. I know from very personal experience that the X-Files movie title “I want to Believe” is often a part of the ethos of someone struggling with Catholicism. I have spoken with and gotten to know several Catholics who were considering and did end up leaving the Catholic Church. They were well-reasoned, caring, thoughtful, sincere Christians without an agenda to hate Catholicism or not understand it.

I suggest you read more than one book about a man to come to a conclusion about that man. I have a library full of books on Luther and primary source material. I have most of Luther’s major works. I find him brilliant, a bit vulgar or overly-blunt at times, but generally a sincere, honorable man. He had plenty of flaws, no doubt.

You have come to the conclusion that Jesus can only be found inside the Catholic Church. God bless you in your decision. But others who don’t decide as you do are not always cookoo, uneducated, uncaring, willfully spiteful or anti-Catholic, just not in agreement. People like Jack Chick and some extremist Protestant wackos think as you do in reverse, that no one CAN find Christ in the Catholic Church and…if you can’t find him…well, you know…

when u say that reasonable people leave the Catholic church… .that says nothing to me… cuz as reasonable as people can seem to be… they are… still human…

I have found something beyond the human realm… FAR beyond…

We humans need the supernatural to be saved… In our natural selves (state) we dont even hardly desire to be saved… Saved from what? I mean if we live in a nice house, have a wonderful spouse and great kids… nice car… Wht should we want mor than that? People get caught up in the things of this wolrd and begin to not care about the next world much… start believing such thhings as everyone goes to heaven eventually and etc… etc…

anyhow… i know the Real Presence is real cuz I’ve been there… spent long periods of time There… wish i was There now… but can’t be…

have you??

we really dont have anything to discuss until you have been where i have been…

when i am in the Real Presence, my life… my head, my heart… everything seems different from what it appears to be outside the Church…

anyhow, again… hard to discuss this kind of thing w/ someone who doesn’t know what I’m talking about…

 

[Sword_Brethren]

Catholic pogroms?.

Please, sight sources for your statement that the Catholic Church called for Jewish pogroms.

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

Please, sight sources for your statement that the Catholic Church called for Jewish pogroms.

In fairness to chosen people, he last posted over three weeks ago and is probably not going to see your request. For the record, he did not state that the Catholic Church called for pogroms. I think it is fair of him to assert that the Spanish Catholics who were in the process of removing the Moors from Spain were overly zealous in their reaction against the large Jewish communities who had mostly supported the Muslims in an understandable desire to retain the status quo where they were permitted to practice their beliefs.

The “pogrom” carried out in 1391 called for deportation or conversion to the Catholic faith. This is probably an insupportable incentive to false conversions as well as the virtual dissolution of what had been a thriving Spanish Jewry. On the other hand, we know that St. Teresa of Avila comes from a family of conversos. So the Jews became Christians and continued to thrive and rise to high positions in state and municipal governments. “Old Catholics” were not pleased to see former Jews benefitting so much from their new found faith and the Inquisition came to Spain in 1492 for the purpose of discovering those conversos who were still secretly practicing their former religions, and who converted so they could stay in Spain and have full privileges as citizens.

I do not believe this reflects well on Spain, but neither does the American incarceration of Japanese during World War II. The Church has always vigorously taught against the idea of forced conversions although her overzealous children on this occasion breached that law, and the price for it was paid then, and it continues to be a penance for good Catholics who have to defend Holy Mother Church against accusations of bloodthirstiness and mercilessness. The ill-considered pogrom of 1391 is one of the main causes for this thread today.

Immediately following chosen people’s post, I quoted from a history that my wife used for homeschooling on the subject of medieval Spain. This author who is not anti-Catholic uses that word, “pogrom”, in his description of the events. I offer lengthy quotes from several sections and invited chosen people to comment as to whether he thought the author I cited treated the subject fairly. Unfortunately, he never commented. I would invite you to take a look too and see if it reflects your understanding of the events accurately.

 

[KathleenGee]

Distracted,

You say the priest asked you to instead pray…this is what my impression is when protestants will come on different threads and begin the same debate again, but with new people. Somebody finally told this one person that the issue is faith and he needed to pray.

That is what I would advise those to do regarding indulgences.