Inquisition, Crusades, Indulgences ....

[peeteyg]

We know that these things happened in Catholic history. Are these stumbling blocks to joining the church today? I hear alot of falsehoods concerning these issues so I wonder what people think happened in these instances so we can determine what is truth and what is false. I always hear that Catholics kept people from the bible and burned bibles to keep them out of peoples hands. I hope that we get some good accusations and I hope we have some history scholars to help discern the truth. Lets let her rip.

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

We know that these things happened in Catholic history. Are these stumbling blocks to joining the church today? I hear alot of falsehoods concerning these issues so I wonder what people think happened in these instances so we can determine what is truth and what is false. I always hear that Catholics kept people from the bible and burned bibles to keep them out of peoples hands. I hope that we get some good accusations and I hope we have some history scholars to help discern the truth. Lets let her rip.

They are not a deterrent. Understood historically, contemporaneously and theologically, they are a faith-promoting “trinity” (small “t” deliberate of course) for a Catholic like me.

 

[SSTeacher]

We know that these things happened in Catholic history. Are these stumbling blocks to joining the church today? I hear alot of falsehoods concerning these issues so I wonder what people think happened in these instances so we can determine what is truth and what is false. I always hear that Catholics kept people from the bible and burned bibles to keep them out of peoples hands. I hope that we get some good accusations and I hope we have some history scholars to help discern the truth. Lets let her rip.

Of the three listed, I would respectfully suggest that Indulgences possibly present the greatest difificulties for Non–Catholics.

Speculatively,
Mick

 

[T_More]

They have’t been a deterent for me. Christ did not promise the Church would never sin. The nation of Israel tested God’s patience time and time again with their sins.

 

[KathleenGee]

Indulgences, true…very understandable…they were never eliminated.

Realizing the numbers are greatly exaggerated by the secular media, nevertheless because our world is now very small with the internet, I think we are approaching the Great Apostasy…with all the scandals of Christianity…it does not shake me, we are being purified, we may look like the Church no longer exists…but it will continue on and we are promised an Era of Peace coming…I am not afraid for the church in that respect, but pray and we all must do penance for healing of the abused…

You have to go back to ancient liturgies, the people would prepare the unleaven bread and wine…the work of human hands…people in past times, in contrast to modern American times, struggled deeply for a living. They would put all their confidence in the Lord for a healing, a conversion, for better means of survival…they would sacrifice what pittance they had as a sacrifice and penance, and paid a stipend for a Mass said for their intentions, likened to what I just shared.

I send Mass stipends out all the time for special intentions…so the stipend for a Mass said, normally in our culture it has been around $5, we unite our prayer intentions with the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass…through sacrifice of income, to call upon the power of the Body and Blood of Jesus for healing or freedom from some oppression. It really is not paying for something of God…

 

[dnu]

Probably not any more than the number of people the Protestant Churches burnt, hung, drown, or the Salem Witch Trials, or the etc. etc. impact people becoming Protestant or Polygamy or the Mountain Meadows Massacre keep people from becoming Mormon or the…history is history, all people of faith can do it try to keep these events from happening again.

I think the greatest “hang-ups” that keep people out of the Church are theological and biblical misunderstanding and misinterpretations, same as always.

 

[abucs]

The problem with all these types of accusations is that it literally takes no more than 10 seconds to make the accusation without credible context and evidence while it takes a long time to research, understand and present the history as a more factual account with scholarly historical evidence.

 

[peeteyg]

I agree Abucs. Many get their Anti-catholic talking points and sharpen their knives but never really look at history to get historical account. If anyone is an expert or knowledgeable on the Inquisition for example, I would like to get a learned catholic perspective.

 

[blazerdave]

Indulgences are the most difficult for me. I grew up in a Catholic neighborhood with many Catholic friends, and they tried to explain them in the most palatable (while still accurate) way possible. I don’t let persecutions or religious wars affect my view of the Catholic Church, because those are extremely complex issues. But indulgences…I’m just not theologically convinced at all. No offense.

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

I agree Abucs. Many get their Anti-catholic talking points and sharpen their knives but never really look at history to get historical account. If anyone is an expert or knowledgeable on the Inquisition for example, I would like to get a learned catholic perspective.

I am not an expert, but I have read one who is. A secular Spanish historian named Henry Kamen who has also written a nicely balanced biography of King Philip II. He is published by Yale University Press, and his work is available from History Book Club, which is probably less friendly to the Catholic Church than the History Channel.

This book debunks the terrible exaggerations in numbers of deaths, about the use of torture, about the purposes of the Spanish Inquisition, placing the events and facts in an historical perspective that shows why and how it unfolded.

I would not say that the material was always edifying, but sometimes it was, in the sense that I knew things could not have been so universally deplorable as I had been led to assume by everything form overt Protestant propaganda, to a protest from a Monty Python skit about the abuse of authority, “We are not the Spanish Inquisition”. The propaganda myth has become universally a part of our very culture.

The author shows most importantly that the church courts were for professing Christians only. Never, ever did a professing Jew or Musluim qualify to face the Inquisition. The purpose was not to force anyone to convert (although for practical purposes, this did occur prior to the Inquisition’s arrival in Spain). The purpose was to expose Jews and Muslims posing as Christians. Because of the recent expulsion of the Moors, and Jewish complicity in maintaining the status quo at times, local politics reacted with laws against Jews and Muslims that prohibited certain business practices and participation in state government. This practice, questionable as it seems from our perspective, was the main reason why a Jew or Muslim would pretend to be a Christian, and after almost 700 years of occupation by foreigners, the Catholics of Spain were in no mood for tolerance of either group posing as Christians.

yalepress.yale.edu/yupbooks/book.asp?isbn=9780300078800

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Indulgences are at the top of my list, purgatory and some of the teachings that accompany these issues…that Mary, the Saints, and Jesus all achieved an over-abundance of merit into a treasury that is dispensed to all of us for visiting shrines and seeing relics and praying certain prayers on certain days. That stuff bugs me the most. Infallibility and papal supremacy is a stumbling block for me also.

What bothers me is how the Catholic Church never thinks anyone on the outside is necessary to keep the Church honest. If it weren’t for Luther and company, there wouldn’t have been a Trent and a counter-reformation. Without Protestants, Vatican II wouldn’t have happened (many in CAF think that would’ve been a good thing). Without the media putting on the intense pressure on the Catholic Church, we’d continue with the status quo of cover-ups, moving sex predators around and shuffling, we’d have more of the same with bishops and priests committing sexual atrocities. The hardcore apologists in here will turn and say “look how many protestant molesters there are!” and “the Church is made up of human beings,” and many would never ever ever accuse the pope of handling this wrong at all or having covered anything up or having even the slightest accountability.

I happen to think the Church needs checks and balances. The media is no saint. I know that. And often they are anti-Catholic and anti-religion in general. Is everything they report clean and honest? Nope. But the media does still have a role to play, keepin’ 'em honest. And the Protestants and Catholics need to keep each other honest, too.

The idea that we have to apologize for everything the Church does with a tribalistic constant defense mentality bugs me and the idea that any criticism is “out to get us” bugs me too.

I think issues like Natural Family Planning are hot-button issues that have alienated some folks. Some people have had different experiences with NFP that weren’t the utter joy and utopia that some in CAF portray. The divorce and remarriage annulments are a dicey subject and the Church talks out of both sides of its mouth with that issue at times.

Then there are pastoral issues. The entire diocese around here is lousy for pastoral care, ministry, getting people evangelized, religious education, and fellowship. There’s a lot of ethnic pandering and just going through the motions. At a parish level I’m burned out and at a theological level I have many questions and doubts. From all the people who IM me and with whom I talk in the forums, I know I’m not alone.

 

[Libertarian_FL]

The problem with all these types of accusations is that it literally takes no more than 10 seconds to make the accusation without credible context and evidence while it takes a long time to research, understand and present the history as a more factual account with scholarly historical evidence.

Not true if one of your Popes who is to be the voice of God on Earth and cannot make error did one order that violated the teachings of Christ it undermines the Seat of Peter and the succession of Popes.

So lets see when did Jesus say it was ok to make war on unbelievers (Muslims), kill heretics and support leaders that commited mass murder (Spains conquest of Central and South America comes to mind) … can you show me His support of this in the gospels?

Protestants have one advantage and I have to point this out they don’t have one person that puports to be the vessel of Christ and make doctrine without error if they killed a Catholic you can argue it was isolated to a government or group. You cannot any innocent blood shed without direct support of scripture and the clear words of Christ must be laid at the top of the Catholic faith.

So I say that fact invalidates the Catholic claims or succession.

 

[Reuben_J]

Not true if one of your Popes who is to be the voice of God on Earth and cannot make error did one order that violated the teachings of Christ it undermines the Seat of Peter and the succession of Popes.

So lets see when did Jesus say it was ok to make war on unbelievers (Muslims), kill heretics and support leaders that commited mass murder (Spains conquest of Central and South America comes to mind) … can you show me His support of this in the gospels?

Protestants have one advantage and I have to point this out they don’t have one person that puports to be the vessel of Christ and make doctrine without error if they killed a Catholic you can argue it was isolated to a government or group. You cannot any innocent blood shed without direct support of scripture and the clear words of Christ must be laid at the top of the Catholic faith.

So I say that fact invalidates the Catholic claims or succession.

Since your statement is an assumption that is in error of Catholic belief, you already fallen into the category of an accuser who does it in ten second and without factual research and truth. So it is impossible to move on from your post without saying first that you do not speak the truth.

 

[tweetymom]

Indulgences are at the top of my list, purgatory and some of the teachings that accompany these issues…that Mary, the Saints, and Jesus all achieved an over-abundance of merit into a treasury that is dispensed to all of us for visiting shrines and seeing relics and praying certain prayers on certain days. That stuff bugs me the most. Infallibility and papal supremacy is a stumbling block for me also.

What bothers me is how the Catholic Church never thinks anyone on the outside is necessary to keep the Church honest. If it weren’t for Luther and company, there wouldn’t have been a Trent and a counter-reformation. Without Protestants, Vatican II wouldn’t have happened (many in CAF think that would’ve been a good thing). Without the media putting on the intense pressure on the Catholic Church, we’d continue with the status quo of cover-ups, moving sex predators around and shuffling, we’d have more of the same with bishops and priests committing sexual atrocities. The hardcore apologists in here will turn and say “look how many protestant molesters there are!” and “the Church is made up of human beings,” and many would never ever ever accuse the pope of handling this wrong at all or having covered anything up or having even the slightest accountability.

I happen to think the Church needs checks and balances. The media is no saint. I know that. And often they are anti-Catholic and anti-religion in general. Is everything they report clean and honest? Nope. But the media does still have a role to play, keepin’ 'em honest. And the Protestants and Catholics need to keep each other honest, too.

The idea that we have to apologize for everything the Church does with a tribalistic constant defense mentality bugs me and the idea that any criticism is “out to get us” bugs me too.

I think issues like Natural Family Planning are hot-button issues that have alienated some folks. Some people have had different experiences with NFP that weren’t the utter joy and utopia that some in CAF portray. The divorce and remarriage annulments are a dicey subject and the Church talks out of both sides of its mouth with that issue at times.

Then there are pastoral issues. The entire diocese around here is lousy for pastoral care, ministry, getting people evangelized, religious education, and fellowship. There’s a lot of ethnic pandering and just going through the motions. At a parish level I’m burned out and at a theological level I have many questions and doubts. From all the people who IM me and with whom I talk in the forums, I know I’m not alone.

Thank you for your post. My feelings exactly, God Bless

 

[AmateurPianist]

We know that these things happened in Catholic history. Are these stumbling blocks to joining the church today? I hear alot of falsehoods concerning these issues so I wonder what people think happened in these instances so we can determine what is truth and what is false. I always hear that Catholics kept people from the bible and burned bibles to keep them out of peoples hands. I hope that we get some good accusations and I hope we have some history scholars to help discern the truth. Lets let her rip.

Since you ask…(and add priest sex abuse stuff to list)

…they do serve as evidence to me that you all are not exclusively the church of Jesus Christ and that there are special graces and benefits that God grants exclusively to your organization.

They do serve as evidence to me that you all are just as messed up as we are and that God in fact is not a respecter of organizations.

 

[Reuben_J]

Since you ask…(and add priest sex abuse stuff to list)

…they do serve as evidence to me that you all are not exclusively the church of Jesus Christ and that there are special graces and benefits that God grants exclusively to your organization.

They do serve as evidence to me that you all are just as messed up as we are and that God in fact is not a respecter of organizations.

Couldn’t agree with you more. Only that it it does not make it not the Church that Jesus founded.

 

[awatkins69]

The Inquisition has never been one institution. Rather, there have been various Inquisitions set up at different times. The most famous are the Medieval Inquisition, the Spanish Inquisition, and the Roman Inquisition. The Inquisition was not one office until around the 16th or 17th century when it was set up as a Congregation of the Roman Curia. It survives today and is known as the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. This was the “Roman Inquisition”. The Medieval Inquisition was the tribunal set up in France to combat the Albigensian heresy. The Spanish Inquisition was set up by the Spanish monarch and approved by the pope to combat heresy in her realms. The Inquisitions did burn heretical mistranslations of the bible, so that the faithful would not become confused by bad translations with a heretical purpose. As for the execution of heretics, this was ultimately the decision of the state. If they wanted, they could grant the heretic clemency, and the Inquisition could have no say.

The Crusades were a serious of wars intended to re-take the Holy Land. We must understand that the Holy Land was part of the Byzantine Empire. As the Muslims conquered the Byzantine Empire, they turned to the Latins for help, which came. While many atrocities were committed during the Crusades, it still does not change the justness of the wars. Just as some grave atrocities have been committed in modern wars, it does not make the whole war unjust.

An indulgence is the remission of temporal punishment due for sin. The theology behind this is that by penances we can make up for temporal punishment (either in purgatory or in this life) by doing penances which teach us and help us to avoid sin. Also, we can get indulgences because of the merits of the works and prayers of others. We still have them today.

 

[AmateurPianist]

Couldn’t agree with you more. Only that it it does not make it not the Church that Jesus founded.

Yes…logically the two are not mutually exclusive.

But at the same time for a number of reasons in my mind, they do serve as evidence to be skeptical concerning your claims for yourselves.

 

[benidict]

Yes…logically the two are not mutually exclusive.

But at the same time for a number of reasons in my mind, they do serve as evidence to be skeptical concerning your claims for yourselves.

hello amateurpianist. good to converse with you again. heres my question. specifically, which claims for ourselves, do you take issue with? thanx. Peace.

 

[AmateurPianist]

hello amateurpianist. good to converse with you again. heres my question. specifically, which claims for ourselves, do you take issue with? thanx. Peace.

I started a thread on this a while back…something like “Who says the church of Jesus
Christ must exist in one organization”.

My primary issue is the idea that God has always from the start of the church age to the present time considered one organization and one organization alone as His church. And that God provides unique benefits/graces to this one organization that he can/will not provide to other organizations that bear the name of Jesus Christ.

This is not the same as the issue “Can the Catholic church (and the Catholic church alone) trace its lineage back to the apostolic church?” I will let a neutral historian answer that question for me.