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bobzills
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'Please see #175 and also you can see the article on the inquisition in the Catholic Encyclopedia online.
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Maria1212
Guest
Dear Protestant 101,
I thought you would be interested in the article in the current issue of This Rock. It is in the “Truth Be told” secion and is called Secrets of the Spanish Inquisition Revealed" and is written by Robert P. Lockwood. It starts on page 34 of the November 2007 issue.
If you would like me to mail you a copy, just send me a PM. I don`t have time to summarize the article but wanted to “flag it” for you. You might also be interested in the article called Excommunication and Interdict.
Sincerely,
Maria1212
I thought you would be interested in the article in the current issue of This Rock. It is in the “Truth Be told” secion and is called Secrets of the Spanish Inquisition Revealed" and is written by Robert P. Lockwood. It starts on page 34 of the November 2007 issue.
If you would like me to mail you a copy, just send me a PM. I don`t have time to summarize the article but wanted to “flag it” for you. You might also be interested in the article called Excommunication and Interdict.
Sincerely,
Maria1212
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St_Violet
Guest
I can’t believe people believe that D. Rivera was a Jesuit, how many times do people have to debunk that so that everyone can actually have some truth.
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guanophore
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This question was taken from a thread on Symbolic Eucharist, where it was off topic:
I think there have been bishops and priests who profaned their vows, and did persecute believers that they were pledged to protect. I can’t agree that “Catholic popes who endorsed the inqusitions” did so, because that assumes that everything that happened during the inquisions was wrong, which is not the case. In fact, the inquisitons where the only way, in many cases,t hat the accussed would get a trial at all. Otherwise, they would have been summarily executed.justasking4 said:
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Hisalone
Guest
I just started to read this thread forgive me for bringing up this old post but I think my comment is relavant.
There is no original source documentation for the beliefs of the Cathars. What we seem to know about them we have learned from their enemies. Imagine if you will what would have been told of the US and the UK if Germany had won WWll?
I have reason to believe that these comments are untrue of the Cathars.
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NotWorthy
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You may have reason, but you have not proof.
Are you sure there is no source documentation for the beliefs of the Cathars. Does the Catholic Church show evidence of “misconstruing” other beliefs of heretics? If so, then you have a point. But if the Church has consistently stated the beliefs of heretics - even while maybe over-emphasizing the damage these heresies could do to the faithful - then you’re “reason to believe” is unfounded.
Look at other controversies of the Church. Anytime we find archaeological evidence of the practices and teachings of the early Church, they agree with what the Catholic Church said they were. For instance, the Dead Sea Scrolls could have been very damaging if the Catholic Church had changed early manuscripts. But the DSS confirmed everything that they related to.
Oh yeah, one more point. Many Catholics would probably be deeply offended if they realized that they were being compared to Nazi Germany. A better analogy might be more ecumenical.
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csmatyi
Guest
Well you are a good catholic if you want to humiliate other people. Why does it matter at all if Jack Chick productions publish it if Paris first wrote it decades before Chick? Paris who btw was a former Catholic. FORMER. Like so many people who have seen the light…Oh wait!!! This Edmund Paris book is published by “Jack Chick Productions”???
Stop it, Matthew, my sides hurt!!!
Seriously, thanks for the good laugh and good day, Matthew.
BTW, I checked with the Vatican today. They are going to make sure that the weather is clear for me in Texas today. The meteorologist (which is Latin for “Jesuit implant”) assures me that they’ll make sure it doesn’t rain on me today. Keep this on the down-low, OK?
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csmatyi
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NotWorthy
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I’m sorry if I humiliated, but if Mr. Paris wanted to find a legitimate publishing company to distribute his book, he certainly could have found more credibility. Maybe the Hari Krishna publishing company was all booked up?
And yes, Mr. Paris could have been catholic in name, but he was not Catholic if he left the Church. That’s just crazy talk!
BTW, welcome to the forums, cs!!! I hope you enjoy your stay!
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bobzills
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It seems that it would be a bit of an exageration to say that 500 million people were killed by the Inquisition?
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mercygate
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NotWorthy
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Wildgraywolf
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NotWorthy
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mercygate;3793071:
Perhaps the Assembly Line was invented earlier than we thought?
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dosdog
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The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition
catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals/Dossier/1112-96/article4.html
The Real Inquisition
Investigating the popular myth.
only about 1 percent of those brought before the Spanish Inquisition were actually executed.
nationalreview.com/comment/madden200406181026.asp
catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals/Dossier/1112-96/article4.html
The Real Inquisition
Investigating the popular myth.
only about 1 percent of those brought before the Spanish Inquisition were actually executed.
nationalreview.com/comment/madden200406181026.asp
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Wildgraywolf
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But can anyone imagine the logistics and resources needed to pull this off and keep it out of the history books? I can’t.Perhaps the Assembly Line was invented earlier than we thought?
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csmatyi
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Well, buster,I’m sorry if I humiliated, but if Mr. Paris wanted to find a legitimate publishing company to distribute his book, he certainly could have found more credibility. Maybe the Hari Krishna publishing company was all booked up?
And yes, Mr. Paris could have been catholic in name, but he was not Catholic if he left the Church. That’s just crazy talk!
BTW, welcome to the forums, cs!!! I hope you enjoy your stay!
Paris’s book is also being sold by Amazon:
amazon.com/Secret-History-Jesuits-Edmund-Paris/dp/0937958107
Wasn’t the book first printed in French? Because Paris is French, so they translated it from that language. So it wasn’t Chick who first published it. But, actually, what really big difference does it make as to who published the book and when? If Chick wants to publish it then let him do so…
Btw have you even read the book? I doubt it. Was it you who cited a review about it in this forum? It’s not good enough to just simply cite what somebody else wrote about it, you’ll have to read it for yourself. And also, it’s full of footnotes and other references. Paris did a good job of exposing the Jesuits…
Paris was Catholic, not just in name. Just because you leave the church doesn’t mean your knowledge of that church and all your experiences just go down the drain, you know…
Sorry.
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csmatyi
Guest
Mercygate, notworthy, wildgraywolf, dosdog,
You all miss the point as to the number of victims of the inquisition. Btw if it was only 3000, that would be a very big mistake (reference please btw, you’re just asserting things willy nilly into thin air). This would mean only 5 victims a year during 600 years. In Europe this would mean that only one single heretic would pop his head up in a single European country once every 4-5 years. Why in the whole wide world would the Inquisition then have to become institutionalized (an instituition which btw exits to this very day).
It is a known fact that 62 million people were killed in the space of 8 years (world war 2). Also, estimates were made that in just 200 years 60 million bison were killed in North America. The point is that it is quite possible to kill living things at an extremely quick rate. During ww2, the death rate would have been 7,75 mil per year. During the inquisition, this was only 83000 a year. The difference is 93 to one, although the population of Europe was only one sixth it was back then compared to what it is now. Also take into account that since the inquisiton was spread out over many hundreds of years, this makes it possible for different parts of the population to recover from massive exterminations.
Another source which shows it is quite feasible: cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/estimates.doc
But let’s actually cite some Roman Catholic theologians pertaining to the number of victims in the inquisition, which will lay this 3000 figure to rest:
Concerning the Cathari, who were similar to the Waldenses, near the end of the twelfth century “The Dominican Rainerius gave 4,000,000 as a safe estimate of their number and declared this was according to a census made by the Cathari themselves” [Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, 8 volumes (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdman’s, 1910; reprint, 1978), Volume V, Chapter X].
Catholic historian Vergerius admits gleefully that during the Pontificate of Pope Paul IV (1555-1559) “the Inquisition alone, by tortures, starvation, or the fire, murdered more than 150,000 Protestants.”
Argument 2d. ’ Experience shows that terror is not effective.’ I reply, EXPERIENCE PROVES THE CONTRARY—FOR THE DONATISTS, MANICHEANS, AND ALBIGENSES WERE ROUTED, AND ANNIHILATED BY ARMS.
Also, Wesley in his diary of January 16, 1760 quotes Sir John Davis in his “Historical Relations Concerning Ireland” as stating that “from 1600 to 1641, the general massacre, with the ensuing war, again thinned their numbers; not so few as a million of men, women, and children, being destroyed in four years’ time.” The rebellion in 1641 killed more than 150,000 Protestants in Ireland, by the priests’ own computations, and many others died later.
Walter M. Montano,a former Catholic priest, asserts in his book, Behind the Purple Curtain that it has been estimated that fifty million people died for their faith during the twelve hundred years of the Dark Ages. (Citing Walter M. Montano, Behind the Purple Curtain, Cowman Publications, 1950, page 91.)
‘The church,’ says [Martin] Luther, has never burned a heretic.’ . . I reply that this argument proves not the opinion, but the ignorance or impudence of Luther. Since almost infinite" numbers were either burned or otherwise killed…-- Robert Bellarmine, Disputationes de Controversiis, Tom. ii, Lib. III, cap. XXII, “Objections Answered,” 1682 edition. (Bellarmine was a Roman Catholic.)
" We may kill anywhere a man proscribed by the Pope, because the Pope has at least an indirect jurisdiction over all the world, even in temporal things." (The R. F. Jesuit Busembaum- Theologia Moralis.)
Alexander Campbell, stated in debate with John B. Purcell, Bishop of Cincinnati, in 1837 that the records of historians and martyrologists show that it may be reasonable to estimate that from fifty to sixty-eight millions of human beings died, suffered torture,…by the Roman Catholic Church during the awful years of the Inquisition. Bishop Purcell made little effort to refute these figures. (Citing A Debate on the Roman Catholic Religion, Christian Publishing Co., 1837, p. 327.)
Also note that sometimes people were slaughtered on the street like during the St. Bartholomew’s massacre in Paris of the Hugenots when several thousand people were killed within hours, the massacre then spread to other parts of France.
Please note I don’t want to jab at you Catholics, but this is a real concern.
You all miss the point as to the number of victims of the inquisition. Btw if it was only 3000, that would be a very big mistake (reference please btw, you’re just asserting things willy nilly into thin air). This would mean only 5 victims a year during 600 years. In Europe this would mean that only one single heretic would pop his head up in a single European country once every 4-5 years. Why in the whole wide world would the Inquisition then have to become institutionalized (an instituition which btw exits to this very day).
It is a known fact that 62 million people were killed in the space of 8 years (world war 2). Also, estimates were made that in just 200 years 60 million bison were killed in North America. The point is that it is quite possible to kill living things at an extremely quick rate. During ww2, the death rate would have been 7,75 mil per year. During the inquisition, this was only 83000 a year. The difference is 93 to one, although the population of Europe was only one sixth it was back then compared to what it is now. Also take into account that since the inquisiton was spread out over many hundreds of years, this makes it possible for different parts of the population to recover from massive exterminations.
Another source which shows it is quite feasible: cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/estimates.doc
But let’s actually cite some Roman Catholic theologians pertaining to the number of victims in the inquisition, which will lay this 3000 figure to rest:
Concerning the Cathari, who were similar to the Waldenses, near the end of the twelfth century “The Dominican Rainerius gave 4,000,000 as a safe estimate of their number and declared this was according to a census made by the Cathari themselves” [Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, 8 volumes (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdman’s, 1910; reprint, 1978), Volume V, Chapter X].
Catholic historian Vergerius admits gleefully that during the Pontificate of Pope Paul IV (1555-1559) “the Inquisition alone, by tortures, starvation, or the fire, murdered more than 150,000 Protestants.”
Argument 2d. ’ Experience shows that terror is not effective.’ I reply, EXPERIENCE PROVES THE CONTRARY—FOR THE DONATISTS, MANICHEANS, AND ALBIGENSES WERE ROUTED, AND ANNIHILATED BY ARMS.
- Robert Bellarmine (Catholic), Disputationes de Controversiis, Tom. ii, Lib. III, cap. XXII, “Objections Answered,” 1682 edition.
Also, Wesley in his diary of January 16, 1760 quotes Sir John Davis in his “Historical Relations Concerning Ireland” as stating that “from 1600 to 1641, the general massacre, with the ensuing war, again thinned their numbers; not so few as a million of men, women, and children, being destroyed in four years’ time.” The rebellion in 1641 killed more than 150,000 Protestants in Ireland, by the priests’ own computations, and many others died later.
Walter M. Montano,a former Catholic priest, asserts in his book, Behind the Purple Curtain that it has been estimated that fifty million people died for their faith during the twelve hundred years of the Dark Ages. (Citing Walter M. Montano, Behind the Purple Curtain, Cowman Publications, 1950, page 91.)
‘The church,’ says [Martin] Luther, has never burned a heretic.’ . . I reply that this argument proves not the opinion, but the ignorance or impudence of Luther. Since almost infinite" numbers were either burned or otherwise killed…-- Robert Bellarmine, Disputationes de Controversiis, Tom. ii, Lib. III, cap. XXII, “Objections Answered,” 1682 edition. (Bellarmine was a Roman Catholic.)
" We may kill anywhere a man proscribed by the Pope, because the Pope has at least an indirect jurisdiction over all the world, even in temporal things." (The R. F. Jesuit Busembaum- Theologia Moralis.)
Alexander Campbell, stated in debate with John B. Purcell, Bishop of Cincinnati, in 1837 that the records of historians and martyrologists show that it may be reasonable to estimate that from fifty to sixty-eight millions of human beings died, suffered torture,…by the Roman Catholic Church during the awful years of the Inquisition. Bishop Purcell made little effort to refute these figures. (Citing A Debate on the Roman Catholic Religion, Christian Publishing Co., 1837, p. 327.)
Also note that sometimes people were slaughtered on the street like during the St. Bartholomew’s massacre in Paris of the Hugenots when several thousand people were killed within hours, the massacre then spread to other parts of France.
Please note I don’t want to jab at you Catholics, but this is a real concern.
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dosdog
Guest
The Spanish Inquisition: A Historical Revision
amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0300078803/ref=nosim/nationalreviewon
amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0300078803/ref=nosim/nationalreviewon
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csmatyi
Guest
Supporting Hisalone,
Cassels writes in his book (Christ and Antichrist) from 1846 that it was said by French nobles that the populace was brought up by the Cathars, and that when the papal legate arrived at the scene to raize Cathar cities to the ground, such as Beziers, they asked how to tell the difference between a Cathar and a Catholic, in order to know who to kill. The reply: “kill them all, the Lord will know His own [that is, the Catholics]”.
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