Inquisition Questions

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In my reading, I see the case of a lady who was tortured by the Spanish Inquisiton because a witness reported that she did not eat pork. She was tortured and told to confess, but she had no idea what she was supposed to confess to. This was under the Spanish (Catholic) Inquisition.
So Anglicans didn’t torture or punish anyone? Henry VIII was kind and loving towards his people. Elizabeth I never harmed a Catholic for their faith?

My ancestors never shed their blood for their faith? St. Oliver Plunkett, one of my ancestors was brutally tortured and put to death for the true faith.

Today is the feast of some English martyrs:
Robert Morton p., and Hugh Moor l., in Lincoln’s Inn Fields; William Gunter p., Theatre, Southwark; Thomas Holford p., Clerkenwell; William Dean p., and Henry Webley l., Mile End Green; James Claxton p.; Thomas Felton, O.S.F., Hounslow. These eight were condemned together and suffered on the same day, 28 Aug

All you saints and martyrs, pray for us.

peace
 
So Anglicans didn’t torture or punish anyone? Henry VIII was kind and loving towards his people. Elizabeth I never harmed a Catholic for their faith?

My ancestors never shed their blood for their faith? St. Oliver Plunkett, one of my ancestors was brutally tortured and put to death for the true faith.

Today is the feast of some English martyrs:
Robert Morton p., and Hugh Moor l., in Lincoln’s Inn Fields; William Gunter p., Theatre, Southwark; Thomas Holford p., Clerkenwell; William Dean p., and Henry Webley l., Mile End Green; James Claxton p.; Thomas Felton, O.S.F., Hounslow. These eight were condemned together and suffered on the same day, 28 Aug

All you saints and martyrs, pray for us.

peace
You keep on going off the topic. The topic as I understnad it is the inquisition. You are bringing up horrific actions of Protestants, of which there were many, but do these horrific actions have anything to do with the Inquisition.
I am opposed to torturing people and burning people in public at the stake, regardless of whether it was done by the Inquisition (the topic of the thread) or by others (not on the topic of the thread).
 
You keep on going off the topic. The topic as I understnad it is the inquisition. You are bringing up horrific actions of Protestants, of which there were many, but do these horrific actions have anything to do with the Inquisition.
I am opposed to torturing people and burning people in public at the stake, regardless of whether it was done by the Inquisition (the topic of the thread) or by others (not on the topic of the thread).
But, as I have had occasion to say to the Catholics on this board on several occasions, you can’t understand this kind of thing if you don’t put it in historical context. If you just want to sling mud, then we can’t have a reasonable conversation. There is no doubt that the Catholic Church in the past entirely approved of the idea that those who defect from the faith should be punished, and that generally a government should promote the true faith in its dominions (although it’s only fair to note that the Papacy opposed the establishment of the Spanish Inquisition, approved of it only reluctantly, and did on occasion protest against its extreme behavior). The use of torture came from Roman law, which was seen as a mark of civilization (Roman law, not torture per se), but it is unfortunately true that the Church pioneered the revival of Roman law (in general). Burning at the stake also seems to have come from the Romans, and was first used for heresy in the 11th century, I think (maybe early 12th). Initially the Church opposed the execution of heretics, but in the course of the 12th century came to support it, for reasons that scholars still debate.

Edwin
 
So Anglicans didn’t torture or punish anyone? Henry VIII was kind and loving towards his people. Elizabeth I never harmed a Catholic for their faith?

My ancestors never shed their blood for their faith? St. Oliver Plunkett, one of my ancestors was brutally tortured and put to death for the true faith.
It seems to me that a defensive posture like this serves no useful purpose. It also seems like ones who do this are just saying: “Well Anglicans (or whoever) did it too;” and that seems to be all that is needed to say: “We aren’t so bad” or “we did nothing wrong;” or 'the reports of what we did are ‘exaggerated…’ there is simply no way for accountability when we dismiss our actions, by pointing the finger at another’s allegedly similar actions.

It’s too bad the ones who did all that holy torture weren’t still alive; they could be tried in court for crimes against humanity.
 
But, as I have had occasion to say to the Catholics on this board on several occasions, you can’t understand this kind of thing if you don’t put it in historical context. If you just want to sling mud, then we can’t have a reasonable conversation. There is no doubt that the Catholic Church in the past entirely approved of the idea that those who defect from the faith should be punished, and that generally a government should promote the true faith in its dominions (although it’s only fair to note that the Papacy opposed the establishment of the Spanish Inquisition, approved of it only reluctantly, and did on occasion protest against its extreme behavior). The use of torture came from Roman law, which was seen as a mark of civilization (Roman law, not torture per se), but it is unfortunately true that the Church pioneered the revival of Roman law (in general). Burning at the stake also seems to have come from the Romans, and was first used for heresy in the 11th century, I think (maybe early 12th). Initially the Church opposed the execution of heretics, but in the course of the 12th century came to support it, for reasons that scholars still debate.

Edwin
Everything you say may be true. My comment is that it was setting a bad precedent for the Church to issue a defense of torture to extract confession.
To haul people before an inquisition for things like being guilty of the offense of Greek Orthodoxy is outrageous, isn’t it?
 
Protestant101, the Inquisition and the Diet of Worms are two entirely different issues. Why are you conflating them?
 
Everything you say may be true. My comment is that it was setting a bad precedent for the Church to issue a defense of torture to extract confession.
To haul people before an inquisition for things like being guilty of the offense of Greek Orthodoxy is outrageous, isn’t it?
Certainly. Who was tried before the Inquisition for being Orthodox? I’m not saying no one was, just interested in knowing what example you’re thinking of, since I don’t know of one offhand.

Edwin
 
You keep on going off the topic. The topic as I understnad it is the inquisition. You are bringing up horrific actions of Protestants, of which there were many, but do these horrific actions have anything to do with the Inquisition.
I am opposed to torturing people and burning people in public at the stake, regardless of whether it was done by the Inquisition (the topic of the thread) or by others (not on the topic of the thread).
One man’s torture is another man’s torture.
I think this has been answered, if you go back over the thread, especially responses by Contarini.

peace
 
Certainly. Who was tried before the Inquisition for being Orthodox? I’m not saying no one was, just interested in knowing what example you’re thinking of, since I don’t know of one offhand.

Edwin
If you would go to:
answers.com/topic/inquisition
You will see:
“The Spanish Inquisition was set up by King Ferdinand of Aragon and Queen Isabella of Castile in 1478 with the forced approval of Pope Sixtus IV. In contrast to the previous Inquisition, it operated completely under royal authority, though staffed by secular clergy and orders, and independently of the Holy See. It aimed primarily at converts from Judaism and Islam (who were still residing in Spain after the end of the Moor control of Spain), who were suspected of either continuing to adhere to their old religion (often after having been converted under duress) or having fallen back into it, and later at Protestants; in Sicily and Southern Italy, which were under Spanish rule, it targeted **Greek Orthodox **Christians.”
 
And what about burnign people alive at the stake?
According to what I read, people were tortured because they did not eat pork. Once the Church had approved this form of torture for extracting confession, it set a bad precedent and we see it being used later on to break innocent people.
under the papacy, People who did not recant or relpased were burnt by the stake, The Church felt that the false teachings that were spread by the Cathars was very dangerous toward the salvation of the people and this was proven to be true, because the Cathars were rapidly growing even during the process of The Church’s method to supress the Cathars. The Goal of the Church was to spread salvation and the Cathars were doing a very good job at interfearing with this.

The Cathars did not believe in the trinity (the basic doctrine of Christianity).

They taught that marriage is evil and that making babies was evil

They taught murder was a path to martrydom, because they believed the only hell that existed was this earth which also they believed that this world we are on now was created by the devil, and by killing someone or committing suicide was a perfect way towards Heaven

They emphasize the their teachings on the new testament because they believed the old testament was inspired by the Devil

but remember knowing how heretical these teachings are, the Church did try to deal with this in peaceful ways.
 
when you hear Catholics say, “well Protestants killed too”. I do not believe we are trying to justify the actions by the Spanish Inquisition which the Pope had no part in. The main reason behind this, is so that the Protestants would look towards the Catholic Church with less negative judgment, we would think that when Protestants learn the murderous history of their own movement they would come to understand that regardless of what religion, or culture injustice
 
If you would go to:
answers.com/topic/inquisition
You will see:
“The Spanish Inquisition was set up by King Ferdinand of Aragon and Queen Isabella of Castile in 1478 with the forced approval of Pope Sixtus IV. In contrast to the previous Inquisition, it operated completely under royal authority, though staffed by secular clergy and orders, and independently of the Holy See. It aimed primarily at converts from Judaism and Islam (who were still residing in Spain after the end of the Moor control of Spain), who were suspected of either continuing to adhere to their old religion (often after having been converted under duress) or having fallen back into it, and later at Protestants; in Sicily and Southern Italy, which were under Spanish rule, it targeted **Greek Orthodox **Christians.”
And so you’re blaming the Pope for this? Am I missing something here?
 
You keep on going off the topic. The topic as I understnad it is the inquisition. You are bringing up horrific actions of Protestants, of which there were many, but do these horrific actions have anything to do with the Inquisition.
I am opposed to torturing people and burning people in public at the stake, regardless of whether it was done by the Inquisition (the topic of the thread) or by others (not on the topic of the thread).
The use of torture by Protestants is very much to the point of the thread, because the OP’s question points to the Inquisition regarding the use of strong measures, including capital punishment, as if such things were unique to the Catholic Church in the prosecution of principle.

The fact that identical measures were used by both Protestant and Catholic states points to the universal acceptance of such methods at the time.

I do not believe it has been mentioned on this thread that we still have the Inquisition, now known as the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. In principle, I, for one, believe the Inquisition to have been (and still to be) a very good thing.

Today the methods have changed, and the zeal of the office may have paled, but its pastoral function is the same: maintaining discipline in the teaching of the faith in order to insure peaceful orthodoxy for the people of God.
 
Is it too late to ask the question, “What was the purpose of the Inquisition”? What were they inquiring from people. I mean, I seem to recall that the Spanish Inquisition was meant to reveal Jews and Moors (?) who were posing as Catholics, especially as clergy, in order to resist persecution (although I don’t know from whom exactly). Am I mixing up my Inquisitions? I guess what I’m trying to say is, “What made one a case for the Inquisition”?

On a side note, am I the only one that has the tune “The Inquisition, what a show…” running through my head? I can’t get the image of Mel Brooks dancing in a monk’s robes out of my mind. :eek:
 
“What made one a case for the Inquisition”?
I am not a historian. I just read a bit. My impression is that it depended a great deal on time and place. The one that is the most noted, the Spanish Inquisition was, at least initially, instituted in order to provide an alternative to indiscriminate slaughter. Rightly or wrongly, the Spanish monarchs, who had just reconquered Spain from Moslem rule, were deeply suspicious of people who converted from Islam or Judaism after the reconquest, being concerned that they would provide a “fifth column” in the event of a new Islamic attempt to conquer.

Some of such converts, it was believed, continued in their former religious practices; that being taken as evidence of an attempt to conceal their true allegiance for nefarious reasons. Jews had been very prominent in the former Moslem government, many being highly skilled administrators and scholars in the pay of Moslem authorities, and, rightly or wrongly, were suspected of being potentially in cahoots with the Islamists for that reason.

The “identification” of the false converts was widespread among the populace. The Inquisition was, at least in original purpose, set up for the purpose of investigating the truth of allegations against such people; all of whom would probably have been killed by the government or populace otherwise. It may be noted that people who remained Jews or Moslems openly, were not, by definition, subject to the Inquisition at all. Some fared well under Spanish rule at different times and places, and some did not.

It is for this reason (responding to a lady’s earlier thread) that refusal to eat pork was a suspect bit of evidence, but ONLY if the person purported to have converted from Judaism or Islam to Catholicism. Jews and Muslims do not eat pork, but Christians do. Therefore, if a person purporting to have converted from Judaism or Islam to Catholicism refused to eat pork, it was taken as ONE PIECE of evidence that the “conversion” was false.

Since the government viewed all false converts as potential traitors (like an underground Al Quaeda cell would be viewed today; something like the terrorist doctor group in Britain) it was inclined to execute them as traitors. The government, being very new, did not have a good tribunal system or people learned in the law. The Church did. The vast majority of the accused were freed by the Spanish Inquisition. None were executed by the Church or by the Inquisition itself. The ones believed guilty were turned back over to the State, which would have killed them all anyway without trying to distinguish.

Again, I do not condone the use of torture or excessive involvement between Church and State. But people who want to talk about the Inquisition ought to learn of it from unbiased historians, not from someone with an ax to grind. Most of what I know about the Inquisition was written by historians who are not Catholic.

In response to the person who was not persuaded that the crimes of the 20th Century were equivalent to “torture”, I invite him/her to read all volumes of “Gulag Archipelago” and Robert Conquest’s “Harvest of Sorrow”, plus a good historical account of the goings-on in the Nazi death camps, with a good measure of Dith Prang’s account of the Cambodian genocide, and then come back and compare. In doing so, remember that torture, reprehensible as it was, was limited to 15 minutes in the Spanish Inquisition, and no blood could be shed. Likely, some broke the rules, of course.

My entire purpose in my previous post was not to justify the Inquisition, though some have made a fairly persuasive argument in its defense as a “lesser evil” to what would have happened in its absence. My purpose was to try to disabuse people who have lived in the rights-rich environment of the U.S. all their lives, of the notion that moderns have a legitimate claim to moral superiority over those who went before us, and to caution them that it’s a mighty thin veneer, this thing we call “civilization”. I grew up Catholic in a place where the KKK reigned supreme when I was young. My ancestors came from Ireland during the Famine. Savagery and religious persecution is never very far from us.
 
Is it too late to ask the question, “What was the purpose of the Inquisition”? What were they inquiring from people. I mean, I seem to recall that the Spanish Inquisition was meant to reveal Jews and Moors (?) who were posing as Catholics, especially as clergy, in order to resist persecution (although I don’t know from whom exactly). Am I mixing up my Inquisitions? I guess what I’m trying to say is, “What made one a case for the Inquisition”?

On a side note, am I the only one that has the tune “The Inquisition, what a show…” running through my head? I can’t get the image of Mel Brooks dancing in a monk’s robes out of my mind. :eek:
Investigating the popular myth.
The Inquisition was not born out of desire to crush diversity or oppress people; it was rather an attempt to stop unjust executions. Yes, you read that correctly. Heresy was a crime against the state. Roman law in the Code of Justinian made it a capital offense. Rulers, whose authority was believed to come from God, had no patience for heretics. Neither did common people, who saw them as dangerous outsiders who would bring down divine wrath. When someone was accused of heresy in the early Middle Ages, they were brought to the local lord for judgment,

Among the best recent books on the subject are Edward Peters’s Inquisition (1988) and Henry Kamen’s The Spanish Inquisition (1997), but there are others. Simply put, historians have long known that the popular view of the Inquisition is a myth
nationalreview.com/comment/madden200406181026.asp
biblia.com/christianity/inquisition.htm

Here, then, are some of the most common myths and why they are wrong.
ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/print2005/tmadden_crusades_print.html

Anti-Catholic pamphleteers and historians have grossly exaggerated the numbers, asserting that millions died at the stake. The actual numbers are far less, 3,000 to 5,000 during the Inquisition’s 350 year history as stated in the 1994 BBC/A&E special program, "The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition… though these fiery deaths were quite real and regrettable, they pale in comparison to the 100,000 witches burned to the stake in Protestant Germany, and the 30,000 in Britain over the same centuries… and of course with the modern atrocities of the real millions killed by Hitler and Stalin in a few years…

The Protestant Inquisition
catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/protin.htm
 
There is an excellent book that takes a trully fair and balanced view of the FACTS about the Spanish Inquisition called, THE SPANISH INQUISITION: An Historical Revision, by Henry Kamen. It’s much more balanced and factual than Charles Lea’s work on the subject.
 
though these fiery deaths were quite real and regrettable, they pale in comparison to the 100,000 witches burned to the stake in Protestant Germany, and the 30,000 in Britain over the same centuries
Witches were killed in large numbers in Catholic Germany, France, and Poland. Scholars of the subject are agreed that it wasn’t a Protestant/Catholic thing.
The Protestant Inquisition
There never was a Protestant Inquisition. It’s ironic that you would use this phrase, since you’ve been arguing that the Inquisition was by and large better than the alternative. Whether or not this is true across the board, I’m uncertain, but it was certainly preferable to other courts in some respects (including its preference for repentance rather than punishment and its generally greater rationality and professionalism). So you should see that using “Inquisition” as a synonym for religious persecution is a bad idea.

Protestants did engage in religious persecution, but they did not have an Inquisition.

Edwin
 
Witches were killed in large numbers in Catholic Germany, France, and Poland. Scholars of the subject are agreed that it wasn’t a Protestant/Catholic thing.

There never was a Protestant Inquisition. It’s ironic that you would use this phrase, since you’ve been arguing that the Inquisition was by and large better than the alternative. Whether or not this is true across the board, I’m uncertain, but it was certainly preferable to other courts in some respects (including its preference for repentance rather than punishment and its generally greater rationality and professionalism). So you should see that using “Inquisition” as a synonym for religious persecution is a bad idea.

Protestants did engage in religious persecution, but they did not have an Inquisition.

Edwin
I. PROTESTANT INTOLERANCE: AN INTRODUCTION AND OVERVIEW
II. PROTESTANT DIVISIONS AND MUTUAL ANIMOSITIES
III. PLUNDER AS AN AGENT OF RELIGIOUS REVOLUTION
IV. SYSTEMATIC SUPPRESSION OF CATHOLICISM
V. VIOLENT RADICALISM AND THE PROTESTANT REVOLUTION
VI. DEATH AND TORTURE FOR CATHOLICS AND PROTESTANT DISSIDENTS
VII. PROTESTANT WITCH HUNTS
VIII. PROTESTANT CENSORSHIP
catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/protin.htm

William Penn was the first great hero of American liberty. During the late seventeenth century, when Protestants persecuted Catholics, Catholics persecuted Protestants, and both persecuted Quakers and Jews, Penn established an American sanctuary which protected freedom of conscience. Almost everywhere else, colonists stole land from the Indians, but Penn traveled unarmed among the Indians and negotiated peaceful purchases. He insisted that women deserved equal rights with men. He gave Pennsylvania a written constitution which limited the power of government, provided a humane penal code, and guaranteed many fundamental liberties.
quaker.org/wmpenn.html

The Catholic Church in Colonial America
Marian T. Horvat, Ph.D.
The Penal Age: 1645-1763
Evidence of this anti-Catholic attitude can be found in laws passed by colonial legislatures, sermons preached by colonial ministers, and various books and pamphlets published in the colonies or imported from England. For example, even though no Catholic was known to have lived in Massachusetts Bay in the first 20 years or more of the colony’s life, this did not deter the Puritan government from enacting an anti-priest law in May of 1647, which threatened with death “all and every Jesuit, seminary priest, missionary or other spiritual or ecclesiastical person made or ordained by any authority, power or jurisdiction, derived, challenged or pretended, from the Pope or See of Rome.”

traditioninaction.org/History/B_001_Colonies.html
 
For example, even though no Catholic was known to have lived in Massachusetts Bay in the first 20 years or more of the colony’s life, this did not deter the Puritan government from enacting an anti-priest law in May of 1647, which threatened with death “all and every Jesuit, seminary priest, missionary or other spiritual or ecclesiastical person made or ordained by any authority, power or jurisdiction, derived, challenged or pretended, from the Pope or See of Rome.”
Were there any Catholic priests who were either tortured or burned at the stake by Protestants in Massachusetts ?
 
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