Insecurities dealing with my GF’s past… just want some feedback

[basilisk]

Read the part of her post that I was responding to where she talked about virgins who are virgins not because they are virtuous but because they were not tested, etc. I was just pointing out that those people are simply doing what the Church tells them to do. My apologies if I was not clearer, but my point remains and I do not retract it.

She was not criticizing those people, she was just pointing out the fact of a certain class of virgins. Some people are virgins because they choose to be so. Some just have never been close enough to have to make the decision. Pointing that out does not mean she is criticizing them.

Norseman, you are WAY WAY WAY out of line here! Your reaction should cause you to look inside yourself and find out what it is about YOURSELF that causes you to react so harshly and out of proportion on this topic. Because Liberanosamalo didn’t put anyone down… she just stated a fact.

BTW, there was only one person who vented any venom here before you, and that was the one that went off on the OP, calling him immature and unworthy of his girlfriend. The rest of us sympathized, offered relevant experience, and gave the OP our opinion as to the tack he should take in dealing with this from here on out.

 

[Norseman82]

.
Don’t know what your anger issues are, but don’t vent them on me.

First of all, I am only reiterating what the Church teaches in its prayers and catechisms, so if you have a problem with that, take it up with the Church, not me.

Second, reading your posts, it is occurring to me that if there is anyone venting an anger issue here, I think it is you:

.
I was a virgin on my wedding night. To a non-virgin, who happened to be one of those “virgin chasers.” You know… the guys that didn’t save themselves, but have all kinds of nasty things to say about the women who behave like them. And think they deserve a spotless bride when they finally decide to get married, and then spend years making nasty comments because the innocent bride doesn’t have the bedroom knowlege of a courtesan.

Let me ask you a question: is the real reason you are so hostile in your posts because you yourself were cheated virginitywise and you are kicking yourself for not marrying a male virgin - or did you reject a male virgin and you feel you are being punished for that rejection and every male virgin looking for equality virginitywise is a reminder of the bad choice you made?

 

[Norseman82]

She was not criticizing those people, she was just pointing out the fact of a certain class of virgins. Some people are virgins because they choose to be so. Some just have never been close enough to have to make the decision. Pointing that out does not mean she is criticizing them.

Norseman, you are WAY WAY WAY out of line here! Your reaction should cause you to look inside yourself and find out what it is about YOURSELF that causes you to react so harshly and out of proportion on this topic. Because Liberanosamalo didn’t put anyone down… she just stated a fact.

Yes, she was criticizing these people. I am not the one who is out of line here. These remarks show that the females here are very unwilling to see things from the male side of things. I simply reiterated that these “facts” that she stated as different classes of virgins are simply the result of following Church teaching.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

And I stand by my observations of my obviously larger group of friends, acquaintances and coworkers and enemies and relatives and passersby to say that Norseman is projecting here. Just because HE avoids the near occasion of sin and has passed every test and is sinless, doesn’t mean that there aren’t many many people out there who have not yet been tested. And it has nothing to do with deliberately avoiding the near occasion of sin.

Some because they are misanthropic and keep to themselves. Others, because they have poor social skills and don’t get out much and have never been in the position to be tested. Or others with intimacy issues who keep a wall up for whatever reason.

Or the people who just haven’t yet met the person who is attractive enough to tempt them, or with whom the will fall so deeply in love they aren’t thinking straight.

I’ve met women who are virgins because they just don’t like men much. Where’s the virtue in that?

There are men out there who are virgins because their mother is the woman in their life. It has nothing to do with virtue.

And there are many young people who have not been in situations yet that will test them. Some will pass, some will fail.

And some of those “virgins” may someday be stunned to find that they fall into sin because their virtue, when it is finally tested, doesn’t pass the test, because it was never really exercised to begin with. People can coast for years in complacency thinking they are holy and saintly, when in fact they have lived in a bubble of sorts and haven’t had to work to be good. Satan loves those people. Pride and weakness all rolled into one. It’s like shooting fish in a barrel.

But the reaction here I’m getting is one that makes me think of the old southern saying “A hit dog always hollers.”

 

[basilisk]

Yes, she was criticizing these people. I am not the one who is out of line here. These remarks show that the females here are very unwilling to see things from the male side of things.

Dude, DID YOU MISS MY POST ON THIS THREAD? (It’s the first response after the OP.) I am sympathetic and I told the OP that what he feels is normal and I gave him my own experience to show that he doesn’t necessarily have to break off with her. If her repentance is genuine, he may have found himself one heck of a chaste, faithful, Catholic wife!

 

[Norseman82]

Dude, DID YOU MISS MY POST ON THIS THREAD? (It’s the first response after the OP.) I am sympathetic and I told the OP that what he feels is normal and I gave him my own experience to show that he doesn’t necessarily have to break off with her. If her repentance is genuine, he may have found himself one heck of a chaste, faithful, Catholic wife!

And I wasn’t criticizing your original post. I was in fact indirectly referring to that venom-filled post you referred to, but was handling that poster with “kid gloves” because I saw some of his/her other posts and know that he/she has issues that in one post sounds almost suicidal.

 

[Norseman82]

But the reaction here I’m getting is one that makes me think of the old southern saying “A hit dog always hollers.”

And I’ve seen your “hollering” here and in other posts, and it only reinforces my earlier question.

And I reiterate my earlier statements that a lot of these virgins you refer to as virgins not due to being virtuous but due to other reasons are in fact virtuous because they are following Church teaching on avoiding occasion of sin and avoiding “bad companions”, and sometimes that will result in what the world calls “personality disorders”. Yes, one of the secular world’s persecutions is to classify Christian virtue and the steps taken to preserve it as a “personality disorder”. Now be very careful in what you say here, because it will determine if you have “seen the light” or if you are joining in the secular persecution, whether knowingly or unknowingly.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

First off, Norseman, you do have a history of derailing posts and turning things negative.

I am perfectly capable of seeing things from the male point of view. But since you didn’t like my compassionate advice in my first post, where I was trying to alert a young man not to let a good woman’s past get in the way of his future with her, and to let him know that there may be “technical virgins” out there but they may not all be as virtuous as they appear on the surface… I mean, maybe they’re really ugly or something and no man has ever made an offer. They could have the morals of Jezebel and still be “virginal” if you want to look at it that way… I was trying to let him see that there was a bigger picture to look at.

In view of Norseman’s rebuke, my new answer to the OP:

She is a slut. You deserve far more. Tell her she isn’t good enough for you. Find a real virgin. But you better tell her that you have looked at dirty pictures. Because no matter how holy you think you are, there is someone out there holier than you who will think you are scummy for looking at porn. Have a nice life.

Happy, Norseman?

Geez!

Let me ask you a question: is the real reason you are so hostile in your posts because you yourself were cheated virginitywise and you are kicking yourself for not marrying a male virgin - or did you reject a male virgin and you feel you are being punished for that rejection and every male virgin looking for equality virginitywise is a reminder of the bad choice you made?

I’m not hostile in my posts. Just sadder and wiser and don’t want to see people go through what I endured. I wasn’t cheated virginity-wise. I can look God in the eye when I die and account for my behavior. The virginity status of a husband isn’t the most important thing about him. Some could be “virgins” because they are misogynists who never got close to a woman before. I would have been no better off with one of those.

I’m not kicking myself for marrying a non-virgin. I’m kicking myself for marrying THAT non-virgin.

Your attempts to psychoanalyze me are laughable. You have no idea who I dated or who I did or didn’t reject. Or whose chastity I respected.

Barking up the way wrong tree there, Norseman.

You succeeded here in turning things very nasty. I’m out of this post.

I ask the OP to reread my original post and learn something from someone older than him who has seen more and learned more.

And by the way, not every male virgin is “pure” because they avoid the near occasion of sin. Some are just maybe really hateful and women avoid THEM. Again, don’t confuse lack of opportunity with holiness. And sometimes someone who has fallen in sin, picked themselves up, learned their weakness and gone on to live a holy life is a far more humble, giving, understanding person than those who have never had to confess their sins in humility and sorrow to a loving God.

One might make a better spouse than the other. Just advice to the OP, who seems to have completely misunderstood my original post as well.

 

[Norseman82]

Liberanosamalo,

If you reread my original response to you, I was merely correcting what you were saying about people who have never been tested. And yes, you are correct, I do not know who you dated, which is why I phrased one of my responses in the form of a question.

My whole point is that people see the Church teaching that we have to avoid the near occasion of sin and avoid “bad companions”. They act on it and so avoid “testing”, or they have to suppress their emotions to the point that the secular world calls “unfeeling” or “unloving”. Well, that is the price that one pays for following Church teaching, and then their fellow “Catholics” criticize them for it. And if simply pointing out that these people may simply be following Church teaching makes me a negative derailer, then I wear that badge proudly; someone has to stick up for them.

I guess enduring criticism from my fellow “Catholics” for following Church teaching simply makes me appreciate what Christ and early Church members endured when “their own kind” turned their backs on them, and I can use this as an opportunity to unite it with Christ’s suffering.

 

[basilisk]

Norse, there was a lot of shouting (all caps) in that post, along with ascribing intentions to Liberano of which she gave no evidence. And you yourself said it was a “rebuke.” That was more than “merely correcting.”

Also, having re-read your first post, I have to second Liberano’s comments about estrogen. You seem to be laboring under the false idea that men’s sex drive is stronger than women’s. Our hormones are just as strong as men’s, and affect us the same way. Ask my husband… when my estrogen is surging HE can hardly keep up! And sometimes he can’t…

 

[whatevergirl]

Read the part of her post that I was responding to where she talked about virgins who are virgins not because they are virtuous but because they were not tested, etc. I was just pointing out that those people are simply doing what the Church tells them to do. My apologies if I was not clearer, but my point remains and I do not retract it.

Ok. I see. But, I believe Liberano was merely pointing out that not all virgins, are that by choice. Some choose it, some do so for religious reasons, some do so, because they have never dated, etc…etc… She wasn’t saying this is the reason why people by and large are virgins up until marriage, she was pointing out a group of people who have virgin status, as the possibility being something other than a choice.

Aside from that, I have read your posts on this topic in the past, and I can see the sensitivity you have as a male in today’s culture, trying to remain pure. I commend you for your choice, I believe it is a choice to follow God’s plan for you, on this front, and it’s a shame that men are looked at differently for choosing virginity, than women in our present day culture. I see it.

 

[iluvmybabies]

Well being that I was married and had 3 children outside of the church because my ex wouldn’t marry me through the church would put most Catholic men at a hault with me, but my db didn’t judge me, on the contrary he understands we are human, and we make mistakes, just like I didn’t judge him knowing he too had premarital sex when he was a teen and he regret it big time… It has been something we both have had to speak about in depth…

He used to see porno and masturbate, this was years before I met him, and he regrets it big time… Once in a while he’ll bring it up and be like, I can’t believe I did that…etc… and it’s like it’s ok it’s the past and you don’t have to live with it any more… I let him you know talk about how he feels etc and I still tell him to this day if we were meant to live in the past then the past would be part of the present not the past… Just like I have my insecurities etc… Sometimes I am afraid he will compare our love making with his past experiences, just like he fears being compared to my exhusand… BUT I too have never seen him with such eyes, and I know I will not have any need to compare…

If you love her then just hear her out whenever she has doubts of herself, go to speak with your priest about this and you can both work on this together…

Good luck and GOD bless!

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Look, Norseman,
My original answer wasn’t about people who CHOOSE to follow church teaching. I know many of them. Some of the purest people I know are also the most affectionate, compassionate, loving and non-jealous people around. They are full of joy and happiness toward everyone around them, not only the potential targets of lust. Often they have to cheerfully deflect advances from others who misread that sociability. You can completely remove yourself from the near occasion of sin by climbing into a dark box and avoiding everyone around you. And where is the virtue in that? Your light doesn’t shine before men. As others have said better than I, there are some who are virgins because they avoid the near occasion of sin. There are others who aren’t. Simple as that.

If you have fought the good fight, that is wonderful. Congratulations.

The original post wasn’t even about people like you.

It was about another Church teaching than the one about avoiding the near occasion of sin. It was about the one that had to do with forgiving, sinning no more, and how we should be Christ to those whom we encounter. But I guess in your book, you can love those who sin, but by all means, don’t go marry them.

The saints have all said that the most serious sins are not the sins of the flesh. Your coming here and acting like you are being persecuted and I am not defending Church teaching is laughable. If anyone can find anything in my post that negated Church teaching, please bring it to my attention. Christ Himself said to “Judge not, lest ye be judged.” I was pointing that kind of mercy out to the OP to give him something to think about, because he asked for advice on how to get around the fact that this girl wasn’t perfect.

Now I will revamp my original advice: If you want a perfect wife, don’t get married. There isn’t one out there. The OP was focusing on whether his girlfriend had the V-card still, and what it would mean for their life together. My advice had nothing to do with whether male virgins are ridiculed or looked down upon.

By the way, there is a flip side to that coin for women. The kind of men who see that in a female as a challenge and something they want to “cure,” just because they were the kind of little boys that walked down the street after a snowfall and liked to ruin the perfect snow in all the neighbors’ yards too.

Nobody criticized you for following Church teaching, Norse.

But you aren’t a good advertisement for Catholicism if your adherence to Church teaching causes you to be unfeeling or unloving to those around you. That isn’t the price you pay for following Church teaching. Christ was PURENESS HIMSELF and He was the world’s greatest Lover, Love Incarnate.

We are called to imitate that, not a suppression of emotion that causes the critics of Catholicism to equate religious devotion with mental illness.

 

[LukeFive]

Ok wow, this thread is now like a runaway freight train that is off the track. As I said in my OP I have spent hours searching and reading old threads on related topics (none addressed my specific questions) and this happened in all of them. In most, the OP got flamed and it turned into a conceptual talk about virginity as whatevergirl put it.

LukeFive,

I’ve been thinking about your problem for a while and it occurred to me to ask you this:

Would you be as insecure if she were a widow?

Perhaps, if the answer to the question is “no”, then you should think of her past as a deceased spouse: dead, buried. Gone. The difference would be, of course, that someone who had been widowed after a happy marriage WOULD have happy memories, but that’s not the case here. And perhaps she should do the same and see that her old life is dead and her new life–perhaps with you–is beginning.

You are both in my prayers.

That is a very interesting way of looking at it that I had not considered. In answer to you question, I would say that initially it would not have made much of a difference because I was not thinking past not having my fairytale ideal situation and the thought of being compared. I do not think it would make much of a difference now, because by the time I had made the OP, I had rationalized everything in my head and was ready to move forward but just needed some reassurance that I was doing the right thing and not missing anything else or being “blinded by the light” as someone said earlier I think. It may help her however, which is my main concern at the time and the one that people have addressed the least. Everyone is honed in on the whole virginity thing.

Not everyone is a virgin because they are virtuous. Some have never been tested. Some never ever feel enough love for another person to even get that close. With those people, you may get a virgin, but you will also deal with not knowing how they will behave in the future if they are tested.

Since this seems to be what has triggered most of the recent discussion, I will comment on it. There is an element of truth to this. For me it was a mix. As I said in the OP, I have not always been a saint myself. There was a time period where given the opportunity, I probably would have fallen and a period of time where I avoided the opportunity because I felt I was weak. Then there were times where the opportunity was there and I resisted and usually disassociated myself with that person. So I can understand what you are saying.

First off, Norseman, you do have a history of derailing posts and turning things negative.

I am perfectly capable of seeing things from the male point of view. But since you didn’t like my compassionate advice in my first post, where I was trying to alert a young man not to let a good woman’s past get in the way of his future with her, and to let him know that there may be “technical virgins” out there but they may not all be as virtuous as they appear on the surface… I mean, maybe they’re really ugly or something and no man has ever made an offer. They could have the morals of Jezebel and still be “virginal” if you want to look at it that way… I was trying to let him see that there was a bigger picture to look at.

In view of Norseman’s rebuke, my new answer to the OP:

She is a slut. You deserve far more. Tell her she isn’t good enough for you. Find a real virgin. But you better tell her that you have looked at dirty pictures. Because no matter how holy you think you are, there is someone out there holier than you who will think you are scummy for looking at porn. Have a nice life.

Happy, Norseman?

Geez!

I actually started laughing when I read your sarcastic part. It is sad that this has turned into a flame fest where a comment like that even has a place. But I will say, that she knows exactly what is in my past and I know enough (probably more than I want to) about what is in her past. But you are right. I have known those “holier than you” people and actually not gone out with them because they are so judgmental in general. In my current situation she accepts me the way I am and understands no one is perfect and I the same. I never had a problem accepting her as a person the way she is. I had emotions that I had trouble dealing with. Emotions are funny, the can cloud judgment and are not always rational.

 

[LukeFive]

Continued from last post due to length limits.

I’m not hostile in my posts. Just sadder and wiser and don’t want to see people go through what I endured. I wasn’t cheated virginity-wise. I can look God in the eye when I die and account for my behavior. The virginity status of a husband isn’t the most important thing about him. Some could be “virgins” because they are misogynists who never got close to a woman before. I would have been no better off with one of those.

I’m not kicking myself for marrying a non-virgin. I’m kicking myself for marrying THAT non-virgin.

Your attempts to psychoanalyze me are laughable. You have no idea who I dated or who I did or didn’t reject. Or whose chastity I respected.

Barking up the way wrong tree there, Norseman.

You succeeded here in turning things very nasty. I’m out of this post.

I ask the OP to reread my original post and learn something from someone older than him who has seen more and learned more.

And by the way, not every male virgin is “pure” because they avoid the near occasion of sin. Some are just maybe really hateful and women avoid THEM. Again, don’t confuse lack of opportunity with holiness. And sometimes someone who has fallen in sin, picked themselves up, learned their weakness and gone on to live a holy life is a far more humble, giving, understanding person than those who have never had to confess their sins in humility and sorrow to a loving God.

One might make a better spouse than the other. Just advice to the OP, who seems to have completely misunderstood my original post as well.

I do not think I misunderstood your OP, it was supportive and positive. I did clarify where I was coming from because I wasn’t sure if you misunderstood my OP. I just wanted to make sure people understood that I was not judging her and that was not the issue.

This thread is growing faster than I can keep up with. There are so many things I want to respond to but for now I am going to just have to post this and go outside and do some work now that it has stopped raining, I may come back to it later.

 

[Albert15]

OP - I’m going to ignore the soap opera that has been evolving for most of this thread and comment on your post.

I read one of your earlier posts when you first met this girl and it stuck with me because I had just broken up with my Protestant girlfriend of almost two years who I was discussing marriage with. I’ve know come to the same conclusion that you and this girl have about dating Catholics. Your story gave me some hope for myself.

I haven’t been in your position, so I can’t give too much advice on how you can get through it, but I would suggest prayer and being open with her about your insecurities. Tell her you don’t hold anything against her, and make sure that you mean it. What other people have said about not bringing this up in difficult times is very important, which I’m sure you know, but it’s always good to have a reminder. Talk to her about your insecurities, but don’t let this become a large part of your relationship. Try to just move it out of your mind and focus on all of the other aspects you like about her. You’re still a long ways away from any actual comparisons being made.

I think you could even be lucky in this that as you mentioned, she may be less inclined to lead you into temptation, which I sense you may have a hard time resisting, with your past struggles you’ve mentioned. (I’m empathizing, not criticizing, in this regard I have been in the same boat as you, and unlike other posters, I don’t think you’re being selfish in this, you are being practical and wise.)

I don’t know if you have, but especially since she has already been upfront about this with you, you need to tell her about your past (and current, if applicable) struggles with porn.

Remember, we aren’t defined only by the negative aspects of our lives, but also the positive ones too. My main suggestion after rambling: Focus on the good and how much you love her, the lack of fear will follow as trust and love builds. It won’t always be easy, but it sounds like it will be worth it.

She sounds great. I’ll be praying for you both.

P.S. I think you mentioned your mom wouldn’t like her anymore if she knew about your friend’ past. Don’t tell your mom, My mom can be pretty judgmental too, so I know how it goes. This is something between this girl and you, your mom has no need to know, especially if it is going to cause unnecessary strife. Privacy issues and not spreading around this girl’s past would come into place here. I assume she told you this in confidence. An anonymous forum is one thing, telling your mom is another.

God Bless & sorry for the long post

 

[Albert15]

But I will say, that she knows exactly what is in my past and I know enough (probably more than I want to) about what is in her past. But you are right. I have known those “holier than you” people and actually not gone out with them because they are so judgmental in general. In my current situation she accepts me the way I am and understands no one is perfect and I the same. I never had a problem accepting her as a person the way she is. I had emotions that I had trouble dealing with. Emotions are funny, the can cloud judgment and are not always rational.

You posted this while I was writing my last post. As long as you can both forgive each other for both being human, move on and keep your focus on your mutual future rather than your individual pasts, it sounds like you may really have a winner.

God Bless

 

[whatevergirl]

Albert;

Why would the OP need to ‘forgive’ his gf for something she did prior to meeting him? He has to decide if he can move forward knowing the information, but forgiveness is for God alone in this case. If they were together, and she cheated, etc…then forgiveness would have a place between the OP and his gf. But, I didn’t have to forgive my husband for sleeping with women before me…I had to let it go, and know that he was sorry to God for his past. I think I know what you meant here, but just wanted to throw this in…it’s not for the OP to forgive or not, what his gf did in HER PAST.

God bless.

 

[Albert15]

I only said for them to both forgive each other for being human and having done things that hurt themselves and each other, not that he needs to forgive her for that specific sin, or that she needs to receive his forgiveness for that specific sin before they can move on. As you mentioned, the focus is on moving on and letting things go.

 

[whatevergirl]

I only said for them to both forgive each other for being human and having done things that hurt themselves and each other, not that he needs to forgive her for that specific sin, or that she needs to receive his forgiveness for that specific sin before they can move on. As you mentioned, the focus is on moving on and letting things go.

lol–I figured that’s what you meant. Ok.