"Insecurities"?

[josie_L]

But, the Feast of the Nativity is upon us. Arguing on the Internet is not the way to spend it, so I wish everyone a Blessed Feast. Perhaps we will talk again, ** if my name has not taken on a greyish hue and a status update posted underneath it in the interim.**…

You would have only yourself to blame, but nevertheless, I wish you a blessed Christmas my brother in Christ.

 

[MorEphrem]

It’s good to know you know how every Latin thinks.

That was a deserved response. However, I was not making a universal claim despite what my hasty remark might have seemed to suggest. I was simply speaking from personal experience… and the history of my own Church .

 

[dvdjs]

To dvdjs:

"You know our mindset? You know my mindset? Puhlease. "

REPLY: Your evocation of Rome as Mother, and the tone of your other posts (I do actually read people’s stuff) betray a Latin mindset. It certainly isn’t Orthodox, and I mean that in the full sense Ecclesiologically (whether it is EO or OO). Rome is not Our Mother Church, unless of course you are a Latin. You may be IN COMMUNION perhaps, but even that is a stretch given the reality, and such a relationship mostly exists on paper (although the Melkites attempt to assert their independence, good on them).

The “evocation” was made in allusion to the story of the wise judge who discerned the true fom the false mother by their comparative responses to division. The idea of the good shepherd also works well. You misread the message, let alone the mindset, to shift the idea to ecclesiology

As to my other posts: which ones and what items? I am very curious. My opposition to unbalanced histories that seem to be conflated by some with Orthodox phronema? Please do tell - it might be interesting to see how some Eos measure Latinism.

“Not sure that you understand the concept apart from a straw man to knock down. You have accepted Supremacy from the EP - other Patriarchs have been absolutely under the EP - exercised in a way beyond anything form Rome. So this is not about reality, just polemics,”

REPLY: Supremacy? So the EP can depose Patriarch Kyrill of Moscow? Antioch certainly doesn’t kowtow to the EP, as the current conflict between it and Jeruselem over Jurisdictions demonstrate. Past Patriarchs of Constantinople certainly were worldly, and even meddled in the affairs of other Jurisdictions. Guess what? That was not canonical, and such shenanigans certainly are not considered normative or even desireable. That is no more representative than what the bad Popes did in the past, which Latin Apologists rightly point out. But don’t let the facts get in the way of your argument. I won’t bore you with Orthodox Politics, because that would require a whole other thread.

That is a very nicely chosen word: “can”, even though I talked not about potential or legitimacy but of practice. The EP has quashed Patriarchates. The EP has dictated appointments in other Patriarchates. The EP has acted at a level of supremacy that goes beyond anything from Rome. This action has had an impact of furthering the interest of some churches in establishing union with Rome, but, curiously, it has little impact on those who talk in dire terms of Roman supremacy,

“We actually love our way and don’t see it as tragic or messy. Sorry that you just don’t get it.”

REPLY: Wow. This is the first time I have met somebody who is gung ho for the U-word. I don’t mean that as a slag either…I asked for honesty and dropping all pretense…and I got it.

Not sure where to go from there. You’re right, I don’t get it. But, if you view the Union of Brest as a good thing, well uh…ok.

Gung ho for the word? Not at all. Again misreading the message and the mindset.

Maybe this will help: any GC who preferred to be in the Orthodox communion could do so - and pretty much immediately. Yet here we are.
.
We have had messiness and tragedy. But we love our churches, evidenced most strongly by the many martyrs for it. Given the standards of the time, it is likely that without Uzhhorod our heritage would be Hungarian Roman Catholic. I prefer the way things worked out - byl, jesm, i budu.

 

[dvdjs]

. He believes strongly in his communion…ok. We obviously disagree, but it was a surprise to see an Eastern Catholic react that way.

Are you really surprised to find Eastern Catholics that believe strongly in their communion? That would be pretty much all of them you know.

 

[Peter_J]

To dvdjs:

"You know our mindset? You know my mindset? Puhlease. "

REPLY: Your evocation of Rome as Mother, and the tone of your other posts (I do actually read people’s stuff) betray a Latin mindset.

Well, as far as recognizing that not all of us ECs share dvdjs’s stance, I completely agree. However, I’ve known a number of Latin Catholics who are very ecumenical-minded, so it seems to me that your statement betrays at least a little bit of an anti-Latin (or perhaps anti-Western) prejudice.

 

[dvdjs]

Well, as far as recognizing that not all of us ECs share dvdjs’s stance…

I beg your pardon: what do you claim to be my stance?

 

[Peter_J]

Would you call your sarcastic reply to MorEphrem charitable?

Perhaps I was a little stinging in my reply, and rereading it I could have blunted the edges a little. I do applaud his honesty, and there isn’t much more I can say to him on that front. He believes strongly in his communion…ok. We obviously disagree, but it was a surprise to see an Eastern Catholic react that way.

I’m sorry to say, I’ve known a few Eastern Catholics who are *very *enthusiastic about wanting Orthodox to become Catholic.

 

[dvdjs]

I’m sorry to say, I’ve known a few Eastern Catholics who are *very *enthusiastic about wanting Orthodox to become Catholic.

If you are claiming this to be “my stance”, then you are wrong.

 

[Peter_J]

I beg your pardon: what do you claim to be my stance?

I don’t claim anything but what your stance is. I claim that you don’t represent every single Greek Catholic. Is that a problem?

 

[dvdjs]

I don’t claim anything but what your stance is. I claim that it doesn’t represent every single Greek Catholic. Is that a problem?

 

[Peter_J]

I claim that you don’t represent every single Greek Catholic. Is that a problem?

So … Is it a problem then?

 

[dvdjs]

So … Is it a problem then?

1. Did you really mean “but”. That would be a problem since you haven’t actually specified my stance.
2. To say that there is a least one opinion of mine that is not shared by at least one other Greek Catholic is trivial. Presumably, you actually had a non-trivial point. I would be interesting in understanding it, and possibly, if necessary, correcting it.

 

[Peter_J]

Presumably, you actually had a non-trivial point.

Despite the sarcasm, I’m glad that you presume that. Perhaps you’ll be glad if I show you what I said (to MB):

Well, as far as recognizing that not all of us ECs share dvdjs’s stance, I completely agree. However, I’ve known a number of Latin Catholics who are very ecumenical-minded, so it seems to me that your statement betrays at least a little bit of an anti-Latin (or perhaps anti-Western) prejudice.

 

[dvdjs]

Despite the sarcasm, I’m glad that you presume that. Perhaps you’ll be glad if I show you what I said (to MB):

You made some sort of implicit claim about “my stance”, and nothing but my stance.
I am trying to figure out what the claim is, so that if there is some misimpression I can correct it. Especially in light of the misrepresentations earlier on the thread, this seems worthwhile.

 

[Catherine_Grant]

Note from Moderator:

I can’t count how many of the forum rules were violated in this thread in the last 24 hours.

More time fasting and seeking forgiveness from those you’ve hurt, less time circumventing or disregarding charity expectations.

May God Bless You Abundantly,
Catherine Grant
Eastern Catholicism Moderator