Insight Wanted

[LSK]

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (New Living Translation)
10Because of God’s special favor to me, I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful. 11For no one can lay any other foundation than the one we already have–Jesus Christ. 12Now anyone who builds on that foundation may use gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay, or straw. 13But there is going to come a time of testing at the judgment day to see what kind of work each builder has done. Everyone’s work will be put through the fire to see whether or not it keeps its value. 14If the work survives the fire, that builder will receive a reward. 15But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builders themselves will be saved, but like someone escaping through a wall of flames.

To me… this passage is saying nothing about purgatory. When we talk about the foundation that is being laid and what is being built apon it is the Faith that we build apon Jesus and His teachings. When Judgement Day comes our Faith and all we have done in the name of that Faith will be judged (i.e. put through the flames). Anything that is not of Pure Holy Substance will burn up in that judgement because it is flimsy and not ‘fire-proof’, meaning it didn’t come from God. The believer will make it through that judgement because God knows their heart and knows that they were trying to do His will, they were just a little misguided, but their work will be demolished. This is what I get from that passage. Nothing about Purgatory though…

However, this is hardly the entire Holy Scripture. Also, remember, do not expect to see the word PURGATORY when looking for why the Holy Mother Church knows that we will be give a chance to be purified and be made perfect after death and before standing before Our Lord.
Refer to:
Mt 5:48 - be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect
Hebrews 12:14 - strive for that holiness without which (you) cannot see God
James 3:2 - we all fass short in many respects
Revelations 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven
1 John, 5:16-17 - degrees of sins distinguished
James 1:14-15 when sin reaches maturity gives birth to death
2 Samuel 12:13-14 David, though forgiven, still punished for sin
Mt 12:32 - you will not be released until paid las penny
Mt 12:36 - account for every idle word on judgement day
1 Corinthians - 3:15 suffer loss, but saved as through fire
1 Pet 3:18-20, 4::6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in prison

This may help, as it is some of the scriptural references as mentioned in the Catechism.

 

[scylla]

You are on your way Singing! Be careful with those Catholics

Unity!

God Bless
Scylla

 

[johnshelby]

Curious101:

You guys have helped me a lot. I guess I never really wanted to believe that even though I’ve repented of my sins that I would still be “punished” (even though I don’t like that word) for the marr sin had left on my soul. Protestant religion teaches that once your except Christ as Lord and Saviour, when you die you go STRAIGHT to heaven. Catholocism preaches that even a saved soul must be purified of its earthly marks left by sin before it can enter the gates of Heaven. I guess the latter makes sense if you think about it but even though it may be hard one must look at it from a Protestant raised point of view. That is quite a stretch from what I used to. It will be hard for me to accept. I can fathom it though I may not want to. I have just been pre conditioned to see Catholics as religious monsters who preach fire and brimstone andif you stray from their ways even a little you will surely burn in hell. I don’t know…my best friend recently started RCIA in TX and she is becoming Catholic. Our religious convo’s prompted by curiousity. Everyone else in my family thinks I’m nuts. LOL. Will anyone please read my last post and shed some light on my questions about the Pope? I have read the articles and stuff but I find talking to someone who can correct my misinterpretations more helpful. Hope to hear from you guys soon.

i think another mistake people make is confusing the
‘punishment of purgatory’ with the ‘punishment of hell’…

i think pugatory would be infinitely more wonderful than this life…

it might be like heaven’s lobby, you have to pass thru to
get to the show, the more you have to be cleansed of, the
longer it is before you get into the auditorium…but, it is still far
better than life, standing in line outside the theater…and not even
comparable with hell, not having, and no chance of getting
a ticket…

at least, that’s the way i’m comming to view it…

as in Abraham’s bosom… not heaven, but far, far above
this life, which is far above hell…

does that make sense to anyone??

 

[Singinbeauty]

LSK:

However, this is hardly the entire Holy Scripture. Also, remember, do not expect to see the word PURGATORY when looking for why the Holy Mother Church knows that we will be give a chance to be purified and be made perfect after death and before standing before Our Lord.

Oh I realize that purgatory is not a word used in the bible as it is a term that the catholic church has come up with to describe this place or time. I understand that…

Refer to:
Mt 5:48 - be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect

I do not understand where this is talking about purgatory… In context…

Matthew 5:45-48 (New Living Translation)
45In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and on the unjust, too. 46If you love only those who love you, what good is that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. 47If you are kind only to your friends,[a] how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that. 48But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect.

To me, this is talking about how here on earth we should be perfect in loving eachother just as God loves all of us. What does this have to do with purgatory?

Hebrews 12:14 - strive for that holiness without which (you) cannot see God

The operative word here is STRIVE. When I use the word ‘strive’ I am stating that I want to TRY and do what I am told or what I need to do but I know that I cannot ALWAYS accomplish this. I still do not see what this has to do with purgatory…

James 3:2 - we all fass short in many respects

Yes! We do ALL fall SHORT… That is what Jesus’ sacrifice was for. To bridge that gap! Still nothing on purgatory… sigh

Revelations 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven

Again, Jesus is the lamb that made that sacrifice to make us righteous in God’s sight. We are washed in His Holy sacrifice, clean.

1 John, 5:16-17 - degrees of sins distinguished

Please explain what this has to do with purgatory… am I missing something here?

James 1:14-15 when sin reaches maturity gives birth to death

But we don’t allow sin to reach maturity when we rely on God to take it away. We ask forgiveness and God chucks it as far as the east if from the west.

2 Samuel 12:13-14 David, though forgiven, still punished for sin

But where was he punished? Here on earth. It does not say that that punishment lasted after he left his earthly body.

Mt 12:32 - you will not be released until paid las penny

Now THIS I could see as pertaining to purgatory… thank you for adding one that actually looks like evidence for it. All I can say is that Jesus paid my price and I owe nothing now but my life for God. I WILL live in eternity with God because of the wonderful thing Jesus did for us!

Mt 12:36 - account for every idle word on judgement day

Jesus is pretty clear in this statement… there is no time for reconciliation at the time of judgement…
Matthew 12:36-37 (New Living Translation)
36And I tell you this, that you must give an account on judgment day of every idle word you speak. 37The words you say now reflect your fate then; either you will be justified by them or you will be condemned."

1 Corinthians - 3:15 suffer loss, but saved as through fire

I have already addressed this…

1 Pet 3:18-20, 4::6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in prison

Those that He descended to to speak to are those who died BEFORE He came to this earth to be the Holy sacrifice. Where do you think they went? He hadn’t come yet to make the sacrifice so there was nothing to believe in but to KNOW it would happen eventually. Until they could hear the Good News of what He had done for us and make the decision of whether He was talking TRUTH or not they had to go somewhere when they died! So I could see how purgatory would exist for those who came and died BEFORE Jesus’ time here on earth but not those AFTER.

 

[Forest-Pine]

Singinbeauty:

Those that He descended to to speak to are those who died BEFORE He came to this earth to be the Holy sacrifice. Where do you think they went? He hadn’t come yet to make the sacrifice so there was nothing to believe in but to KNOW it would happen eventually. Until they could hear the Good News of what He had done for us and make the decision of whether He was talking TRUTH or not they had to go somewhere when they died! So I could see how purgatory would exist for those who came and died BEFORE Jesus’ time here on earth but not those AFTER.

To clarify, you are distinguishing between the process (purgatory) that you already said you do believe in and the place (purgatory) that you do not believe in. As I said earlier, either of these beliefs would be fine for a Catholic to have (among any number of alternatives). However, in regards to the place-purgatory belief, you are saying this could have been possible before Jesus’ time but not after. Right? If I understand correctly, you have moved out of the realm of the doctrine of purgatory and into something entirely different–the salvation of souls before Jesus’ death. Here is a catechism excerpt on what we believe happened to the souls of the righteous before Jesus’ death:

632 The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was “raised from the dead” presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection.[477] This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ’s descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Saviour, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there.[478]

633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.[479] Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”:[480] “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Saviour in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.”[481] Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.[482]

634 “The gospel was preached even to the dead.”[483] The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfilment. This is the last phase of Jesus’ messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ’s redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption. 635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that “the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.”[484] Jesus, “the Author of life”, by dying destroyed “him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage.”[485] Henceforth the risen Christ holds “the keys of Death and Hades”, so that “at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth.”[486]
Today a great silence reigns on earth, a great silence and a great stillness. A great silence because the King is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. . . He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him - He who is both their God and the son of Eve. . . “I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. . . I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead.”[487]

We sum up this belief in the creed when we say "He descended into Hell…"

 

[Curious101]

Thanks guys. The more this is stretching on however the less I am beginning to really be able to wrap my mind around a concept (like Purgatory) not even eluded to in the Bible. My personal belief is that the Blood of Jesus Christ is perfect and holy enough to wash my sin away through repentance and through God’s perfect forgiveness in this life, and the next. Then again everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion…thanks for the help though you guys. We’re all saved through the grace of God so hopefully at the end of the day our devotion to getting our lives right with God will be enough to keep us all going strong and achieve our ultimate goal of spending eternity with God the Father. Bless you all!

 

[MariaG]

Curious101:

Thanks guys. The more this is stretching on however the less I am beginning to really be able to wrap my mind around a concept (like Purgatory) not even eluded to in the Bible. My personal belief is that the Blood of Jesus Christ is perfect and holy enough to wash my sin away through repentance and through God’s perfect forgiveness in this life, and the next. Then again everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion…thanks for the help though you guys. We’re all saved through the grace of God so hopefully at the end of the day our devotion to getting our lives right with God will be enough to keep us all going strong and achieve our ultimate goal of spending eternity with God the Father. Bless you all!

Purgatory is in the Bible. You might wish to go reread some of those things. Who said it isn’t through Christ’s blood and personal repentance that we are not cleansed of sin? Singinbeauty did not “believe in purgatory” but described it perfectly.

Disagree with our interpretation, but please stop saying it is not even in the Bible.

scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

Much Scripture was posted, and here is the link again to more.

 

[scylla]

We believe Jesus Christ does cleanse us and makes us perfect, just like the Bible says we have to be to enter heaven, we call it Purgatory.

It is right there in the Bible, very clearly laid out, it is just incompatible with the beliefs of some faith traditions. Since their founders didn’t believe it their followers don’t believe it, but I recommend looking at the verses posted.

Do you need to be perfect to enter heaven?

Are you perfect when you die?

How do you become perfect?

Some say God just covers you up and like poop with snow on it.* Catholics believe that God actually makes you perfect, cleanses you.

It is there in the Bible but some faith traditions don’t accept the Catholic interpretation.

God Bless
Scylla

*(a la Martin Luther)

 

[Curious101]

Well then I guess that is one way of putting it. I guess I just find it hard to accept the Catholic interpretation. That is not to say that I may not one day accept it, but it will be awhile. I guess based on what you’ve all told me going to Purgagtory means you’re already saved, so I guess I will be going there whether I believe in it or not if that is the case. I just feel that if there was such a place it would have been abruptly pointed out in the Bible like hell and Heaven are. I don’t know, maybe that’s just me. Your (name removed by moderator)ut and insight has helped me out a great deal though, even though it may be hard for me to accept at this point in my life. Thanks for all your hard work! Bless you all!

 

[atsheeran]

Curious101:

I guess based on what you’ve all told me going to Purgagtory means you’re already saved, so I guess I will be going there whether I believe in it or not if that is the case.

Everyone who goes to purgatory goes to heaven. But not everyone who goes to heaven goes to purgatory first. Some people go straight to heaven.

 

[jimmy]

Curious101:

“This day you will be with me in Paradise”? Why would he say that if that person weren’t going straight there?

Time for God is a little different. Consider that God is outside of time.

Curious101:

Why would Jesus have to sacrifice himself, which was supposed to cleanse us through His blood, if we were still going to have to be RE-purified in Purgatory?

The problem is that there is a difference in the teaching on salvation between Catholics and many protestants. Catholics believe that it is more of a process where we are made perfect and pure through the sacrifice of Christ. Through Christs sacrifice He gained grace for all of mankind. If we have faith and we persevere in our path toward greater virtue, we can be perfected by a continued bestowing of grace upon us by Christ. Naturally we all have temptations and attachments to what is unhealthy for us. So we have to work on rejecting these temptations so that we can be made pure. There are many people(I would say almost all) who die and are not perfected yet. In order to enter heaven we must be perfect as Revelation says, so through the mercy of God we are offered the chance to complete the process of purification in the next life.

Curious101:

I thought the reason for Jesus’ sacrifice was to spare us from further agony after death?

The sacrifice of Christ was for our salvation from the second death, or hell. Through Christs salvation we are given the chance to recieve grace that we may be made perfect so that we can enter heaven. Christ died to save us from the agonies of eternity in hell. The only way we can be saved from this is by being perfected.

Curious101:

The passage from the Bible, though the exact chapter eludes me at this moment, that says the foundation upon which a man builds his house will be put through the test of fire and if it weren’t constructed with the right materials(a relationship with God) it will perish. That is the closest I’ve come to getting an example of Purgatory from the Bible.

In a passage in 2 Maccabees it is said that they prayed for those who had died. This prayer is offered that they may be perfected through purgation,

We will all pay the last penny. The bible leaves much room for interpretation which in a way is unfortunate but then again if it came right out and gave us every answer to the tee there would be no faith. I would love some Catholic wisdom spread on my beliefs in a positive manner. Hope to hear from you soon.

 

[Curious101]

You guys really know a lot. I don’t know that much about religion. I am however trying to read the bible in under a year. Not to say that will help me any but maybe I will know my Bible verses a little better when I have questions or when I want to reference them. Want to know something that is really sad? Until my friend recently joined RCIA and started explaining some of this stuff to me, I actually thought Catholocism was an entirely different religion instead of a different denomination…

 

[GodSoldier]

The good thief was experiencing his own purgatory even as Jesus was speaking to him. Not many of us will experience crucifixion, but our own sufferings, like the good thief’s, are not wasted if they are offered to God. Jesus did not come to save us from suffering. He did say, “you must pick up your cross and follow me.”

I would gladly suffer a cruicifixion than face the prospects of hundreds, thousands, or millions, of years in purgatory. Pain is temporary… Separation from God woud be an eternity.

But I doubt that the theif’s crucifixion would be enough save him. To suggest that a mortal sinner could make that kind of suffering and have it compare to the Perfect sacrifice of our Lord almost seems blasphemous.

Rags… nothing but rags. We cannot ransom our own suffering for salvation. That would take away the magnificence of Christ’s suffering and sacrifice- which was only acceptable to God the Father because He God the Son.

How long must even the most perfect Catholic suffer in purgatory to reach a worthiness to kiss even the sandle of our Lord in heaven? One hundred years? A thousand? A million?

All the good works and suffering we do in our mortal lives will never compare to our Lord’s sacrifice for us. We would have to suffer an eternity away from God in purgatory to reach a level of purity to enter heaven’s gates. And if that is what awaits even those of us who devote our entire lives to God (i.e. the Pope) what hope is there for the common believer?

This is why I think that salvation is a gift we freely receive, though we do not deseve it, and can never earn it. A one-time deposit of Christ’s righteousness on our soul. Our Lord is certainly kind and just and wants us to be with Him in heaven.

The work of our salvation is finished. But we must participate as priestly people, serving and loving our Lord. Devoting ourselves to Him to receive His graces. Living as closely to the way He did as we can.

Our good works are a result of having faith in our Lord’s sacrifice for our salvation. Not a means to earning it or even being worthy of it.

---

Sorry for the long rant. Just letting the thoughts flow…

Discuss…

 

[MariaG]

It is not that the thief’s crucifixion earned heaven, but it may have helped to purify him. Suffering can help us draw closer to God.

 

[dal11]

The church that Christ founded isn’t a denomination. Everything else is though.

 

[AquinasXVI]

Curious:

Hello and Welcome!

Interesting that you see the common sense of Purgatory. The idea that we go straight to heaven has some problems with it for the majority of us that are not perfect yet. Let’s take a hypothetical, if I do my best in all things and try to follow all the commandments not just by duty but with love yet I have a nasty habit of cursing when talking…if I go straight to heaven, I would have a hard time keeping my tounge straight. So purgatory is there to assist me in ‘purging’ of this bad habit. Traditionally, Catholics look at personal formation as “shortening our term” in purgatory.

Secondly, Purgatory is God’s Mercy. He wants us to get there with the dignity that he designed us to have. Should death find us not in the perfect state but living in grace, God allows us the time to scrub down and so when we do see him, we will not be shamed.

God bless you and I hope you deepen your search, for it is very deep and it’s the Splendor of Truth.

in XT.

 

[scylla]

Godsoldier, it seems you have heard a little too much misrepresentation of the Catholic position, because what you seem to be at odds with is not the Catholic belief but a caricature of it.

People who go to Purgatory are already saved, we don’t earn our way into heaven and we belief our works are nothing without faith. We believe we are saved by Gods Grace, and we can’t earn our way into heaven with our works. So Catholics don’t believe the theif got into heaven because of his suffering, he professed Jesus Christ and believed in Him. His suffering would lessen his cleansing in Purgatory.

I would suggest looking at how completely the Catholic believe in Salvation by Gods Grace by Faith working through love fits with the Gospel and the Bible.

Here is a link
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0303sbs.asp

God Bless
Scylla

(I was a fallen away Catholic who went to an Evangelical Church who eventually studied my way back home to the Catholic Church.) so if there is any sticking points I will be happy to work with you on these.

 

[MilitaryWife91]

Curious,

I saw that you are planning to read the Bible in under a year. I just joined a Bible Study and we will be reading the Bible in chronological order. You can order a card from EWTN.com which was developed by Scott Hahn and Jeff Cavins for the purpose of reading it historically instead of front cover to cover (in that order). What an interesting concept! Just wanted to pass along the suggestion…

The series is called Our Fathers Plan.

MW