Insights into Non-believers' strategy in debate

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You want the bible to cite pi to exact decimal places?
:eek:
Maybe one decimal place? Or perhaps say “nearly” or “approximately.” All sorts of options, really. It’s suspect that the Pyramid builders knew Pi to several decimal places, hardly too much to ask of those receiving the literal word of the divine.

Or just make a universe without transcendental numbers!
 
“…thirty point one four one five nine two cubits would encircle”
😃
 
Do you think you could be reasoned out of your belief? That is, could you conceive of any evidence that might confuse you to drop the whole religion thing? If not, I wouldn’t point fingers.
The irony is that a thread that made a comment on believer/non-believer arguments being repetitive quickly turned into one.

And did you mean to say confuse? I’m quickly being reasoned out of my belief that Freudian slips aren’t real…

But seriously. Yes, if there was an absolute proof that negated Christianity’s foundations, I would give up Christianity.
The thing about believing with my will, head, and heart is that my conviction stands more firmly on three legs than it would if it tried to balance precariously on one. I.e., one or more legs would have to be sawed off completely before my faith could fall.

Sorry for the cheesy metaphor; Jesus is just better at it than I am. 😃
 
If they only did it to one decimal place it would still be “wrong” according to you.

LOL
Straining at gnats.
The only correct way to handle it is “10 cubits would encircle it nearly/approximately”- but two or three decimal places would have been more impressive than somebody eyeballing it. But hey, maybe the omniscient creator isn’t so great at math. As I said, it was the simplest example I could think of. Others were in the parenthetical.
 
The mathematical laws of the universe should be strong evidence of intentional design.
 
How or why would one need proof to not believe in something?
The Atheist doesn’t believe a God exists because the facts don’t seem to be able to prove a God* does *exist.
One doesn’t start off assuming something exists–especially if it’s invisible and belief-oriented–and then try to prove it doesn’t.

I don’t think a person can really “choose” to believe something they don’t.
It doesn’t have much to do with being adventurous or not or wanting a nice prize instead of dying. Most people don’t usually want to die or be nonexistent, including Atheists. But that desire is not enough for some people to believe in something that does not seem true.

.
I really wish I could come up with responses that you be fitting for every understanding.

You are right that one wouldn’t start off by assuming anything assumptions are formed based off of observations.

When I wrote “adventurous” one part was for comic effect and the other is because the term is fitting; I’m willing to take a risk based off my faith.

Faith grows and matures as it progresses with reasoning and now with modern science is supported with the “old guys” “wild guesses”.
 
The mathematical laws of the universe should be strong evidence of intentional design.
How so? The “laws” are codified based on observation- it’s not coincidence they make sense. You might say “man, it’s neat that the universe follows this rulebook!”, but it really isn’t- the rulebook was created after the fact.
 
Yawn. Using smart people to prove monotheism is like using terrorists to disprove monotheism. Entirely invalid- I have not claimed that everybody intelligent in all times would be dissuaded of religion. Since nearly everybody was religious at the time these men lived, it should almost be taken fore granted that these men would as well.

My all time favorite would be Erdos, but more for his stunning life and mannerisms than his specific contributions. John von Neumann for a mix of the two, and probably Gauss for strict contributions because my field (heavily dependent on stats analysis) would be more or less nonexistent without his work.
 
Where did I say that really, really, really smart mathematicians who were predominantly theists, was a proof of anything?
You’re right, you made no such claim. I assumed, perhaps falsely, that you were seeking to make a meaningful contribution to the discussion- and my first thought was that you were bringing those great guys as a way to suggest that monotheism was true.

But I should have asked- what’s your point?

My favourite mathematician list stands however. I’d suggest reading up on Neumann- so absurdly brilliant.
 
Where did I say that really, really, really smart mathematicians who were predominantly theists, was a proof of anything?
The science guy is either missing the point or avoiding it all together. The faith of the scientists impacts their studies and view of observation. Because their paradigm is of Christian perspective… or you could say their findings still hadn’t persuaded them to lose their faith.
 
You’re saying the burden of proof is on the religious!!
I’m of the opinion that the burden-of-proof is on the person that wishes to change the mind of another. If no one wants to change any one’s mind there’s no burden. But that discussion has come up before in many threads, such as the thread on “.requiring
 
I’m of the opinion that the burden-of-proof is on the person that wishes to change the mind of another. If no one wants to change any one’s mind there’s no burden. But that discussion has come up before in many threads, such as the thread on “Extraordinary claims requiring Extraordinary [Evidence].”
I guess I’ll just keep my Christian faith and wait for the conclusive evidence from the Atheist for the existence (coming of Jesus) or the nonexistent of God.
 
…my first thought was that you were bringing those great guys as a way to suggest that monotheism was true.
Well, no. That would have been a straw argument against stuff I never did nor would say.
…But I should have asked- what’s your point?
My point is that many/most of the great rationalist, scientific thinkers who were also theists, saw a connection between a well-ordered universe, which was intelligible to the scientific mind, and the notion of teleology.

Now, I understand the argument about fine-tuning being in the eyes of the beholder and that if there were no “beholders” then there would be no anthropic perception.

BUT…we, just like the Isaac Newtons and Kurt Godels and John Lennoxes of this world, can tell the difference between sand-dunes and sand castles.

The most compelling aspect of the fine-tuning argument is not so much that we see stuff which theists like myself maintain is deliberate (teleology)

…but that we can **tell the difference **between the deliberate and the accidental.

Between this;
Sand Dune


And this:
Sand castle.
http://www.fotoblography.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/imgp5595-small-500x335.jpg
 
The thing that perplexes me about atheists is their glaring discontinuity with their predecessors. Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, et. Al. Have attempted to contrive ways that thing like morality, love, and human rights exist in a universe without God (which, of course, are always textbook examples of circular logic). This runs roughshod to atheists 50-100 years ago. Consider the thoughts of:

-Arthur Schopenhauer, a misanthrope with special hatred for children;
-Friedrich Nietzsche, who observed that morality is an invention of the weak to inhibit the strong (and therefore hinders the evolution of the human race);
-H.P. Lovecraft, whose cosmic horror stories shattered our race’s delusions of importance in a godless universe, given the size and age of the cosmos.
-Ayn Rand, the pathological narcissist who deemed altruism a vice and selfishness a virtue (of course, she has her own cultists, like Penn and Teller);

The one thing these atheists had in common that ones today don’t is that they weren’t gutless. They were fully aware that morality, rights, and basic decency were merely superstitions of a bygone era. They realized that such comfortable niceties had no place in the modern world if religion were not true.

New Atheism, meanwhile, is too afraid to stare into the abyss. Why? They know it will stare back. Why else would Stephen Hawking say that “philosophy is dead”? Why did Neil deGrasse Tyson say on Cosmos that philosophical questions are not worth our time? Because they know, and are too afraid to confront it, much less admit it.
 
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