Insincere "conversion" -- what to say?

[CarrieH]

Greetings, CAF friends,

There is a young couple that I know who are engaged. The bride-to-be was raised in an evangelical Protestant church, but was never baptized. She wants to be baptized into the Catholic Church so that she and her fiance can be a “nice Catholic family”…except, she doesn’t accept a fair number of the Church’s teachings. They are cohabiting and using contraception, and when asked what she was going to do about this, she said that they don’t intend to let the priest know – they plan to list their parents’ addresses as their home addresses when they fill out the paperwork, and she said that she has no intention of stopping her BC pills. Her fiance doesn’t seem to have a problem with all of this. In other words, they plan to lie to the priest by omission and deception. Doesn’t this make the sacraments invalid? And how does one react when she talks about their plans? I pray that during the RCIA process, she will truly be converted, but in the mean time I don’t know what to say without the risk of alienating her altogether. Suggestions? Thanks and God bless.

 

[1ke]

No, lying to the priest does not make the marriage invalid, per se. It would depend upon what they were lying about and whether they were lying about an essential property of marriage when they exchange vows.

If you are in RCIA in an official capacity-- sponsor, director, team member, etc.-- it is your duty to inform the pastor of the situation so that appropriate counsel can take place.

If you are a “friend” with no direct authority over her in the conversion process, then prayer for her is in order. You can also remind her that lying is wrong, always. You can remind her that she does not have to become a Catholic to be married to a Catholic or in the Catholic Church. You can remind her that sincere conversion comes through humble submission to the authority of the Church.

You may or may not retain her friendship after reminding her that what she is doing is not cute, it’s wrong. That’s the chance you take.

If you seriously doubt that she and her fiancé can enter a valid marriage-- that a true impediment exists-- then you are bound to reveal that to the pastor prior to their marriage.

 

[jmcrae]

Greetings, CAF friends,

There is a young couple that I know who are engaged. The bride-to-be was raised in an evangelical Protestant church, but was never baptized. She wants to be baptized into the Catholic Church so that she and her fiance can be a “nice Catholic family”…except, she doesn’t accept a fair number of the Church’s teachings. They are cohabiting and using contraception, and when asked what she was going to do about this, she said that they don’t intend to let the priest know – they plan to list their parents’ addresses as their home addresses when they fill out the paperwork, and she said that she has no intention of stopping her BC pills. Her fiance doesn’t seem to have a problem with all of this. In other words, they plan to lie to the priest by omission and deception. Doesn’t this make the sacraments invalid? And how does one react when she talks about their plans? I pray that during the RCIA process, she will truly be converted, but in the mean time I don’t know what to say without the risk of alienating her altogether. Suggestions? Thanks and God bless.

If she hasn’t yet started her RCIA process, then it’s not time to worry, yet. If she is still of the same mind as she enters into the Period of Purification, and has managed to deceive the pastor and her instructors for that length of time, then it’s time to worry.

Meanwhile, pray for her.

Are you situated in a way so as to become her sponsor? Hopefully her fiance is not going to also be her sponsor, since he will be then in a position to encourage and solidify bad habits.

Encourage the fiance to attend the RCIA classes with her, as well, so that he can learn what she is learning, but he should not be anyone’s sponsor.

They will also be required to take a marriage preparation seminar of some kind, and hopefully the instructors will provide effective sex education.

 

[Padres1969]

Greetings, CAF friends,

There is a young couple that I know who are engaged. The bride-to-be was raised in an evangelical Protestant church, but was never baptized. She wants to be baptized into the Catholic Church so that she and her fiance can be a “nice Catholic family”…except, she doesn’t accept a fair number of the Church’s teachings. They are cohabiting and using contraception, and when asked what she was going to do about this, she said that they don’t intend to let the priest know – they plan to list their parents’ addresses as their home addresses when they fill out the paperwork, and she said that she has no intention of stopping her BC pills. Her fiance doesn’t seem to have a problem with all of this. In other words, they plan to lie to the priest by omission and deception. Doesn’t this make the sacraments invalid? And how does one react when she talks about their plans? I pray that during the RCIA process, she will truly be converted, but in the mean time I don’t know what to say without the risk of alienating her altogether. Suggestions? Thanks and God bless.

Question, how would not acceding to church teaching make her conversion invalid? Last I checked obedience wasn’t required for one to be considered Catholic.

 

[jmcrae]

Question, how would not acceding to church teaching make her conversion invalid? Last I checked obedience wasn’t required for one to be considered Catholic.

i understood the question to be about the validity of the marriage. I am under the impression that a putative marriage can be declared invalid if one or both parties entered into it with the intention of using birth control to avoid welcoming God’s children into their union.

 

[rcwitness]

I think 1ke is correct, however the intention to not be “open to procreation” can be an impediment to valid marriage.

The whole thing sounds cheap and unfortunately lacking in conversion. I agree about that. But she does have Baptism and you as a Catholic friend to look forward to. So even though, as 1ke raised attention to, she may not consider you a friend after admonishment, she may be compelled to do the right thing through your prayer and her Baptism.

 

[rcwitness]

Question, how would not acceding to church teaching make her conversion invalid? Last I checked obedience wasn’t required for one to be considered Catholic.

Where did you check? Genuine conversion and a Catholic member are not necessarily the same thing. If one is merely concerned about membership there does not need to be a genuine conversion. What is greater?

 

[rcwitness]

Justin Martyr: First Apology (2nd century)

But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation. Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands.*

 

[Blessedwithfive]

Greetings, CAF friends,

There is a young couple that I know who are engaged. The bride-to-be was raised in an evangelical Protestant church, but was never baptized. She wants to be baptized into the Catholic Church so that she and her fiance can be a “nice Catholic family”…except, she doesn’t accept a fair number of the Church’s teachings. They are cohabiting and using contraception, and when asked what she was going to do about this, she said that they don’t intend to let the priest know – they plan to list their parents’ addresses as their home addresses when they fill out the paperwork, and she said that she has no intention of stopping her BC pills. Her fiance doesn’t seem to have a problem with all of this. In other words, they plan to lie to the priest by omission and deception. Doesn’t this make the sacraments invalid? And how does one react when she talks about their plans? I pray that during the RCIA process, she will truly be converted, but in the mean time I don’t know what to say without the risk of alienating her altogether. Suggestions? Thanks and God bless.

Cohabitation is not the taboo it once was. Our priest says it is very rare that he marries a couple that isn’t living together. Same with ABC. According to the studies most catholics use it. Does she agree with the creed? If so, then I think she has a better than average chance to “participate in the church fully”. I was told that was the new way to say someone is converting to Catholicism.

 

[GLam8833]

John Wesley says it best in his motto for
the Methodist movement:

“Do all the good you can, by all the means you can,
in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at
all the times you can, to all the people you can, as
long as ever you can.”

We AND the Holy Spirit can work for the
COMMON GOOD of all His holy Church,
illuminate the darkness of this situ. by
telling your friend the Truth, that BC and
cohabitation is wrong according to Catholic
Church teaching and so is lying to the priest,
she can take it from there.

 

[Padres1969]

Where did you check? Genuine conversion and a Catholic member are not necessarily the same thing. If one is merely concerned about membership there does not need to be a genuine conversion. What is greater?

Oh? My understanding has always been that a Catholic is a Catholic. Which would mean they’re converted. Maybe not a good convert, but a convert none the less.

 

[Horton]

Cohabitation is not the taboo it once was. Our priest says it is very rare that he marries a couple that isn’t living together. Same with ABC. According to the studies most catholics use it. Does she agree with the creed? If so, then I think she has a better than average chance to “participate in the church fully”. I was told that was the new way to say someone is converting to Catholicism.

I’m sorry but I’m struggling a little with your comments. Cohabitation and ABC are against Church teaching regardless of what secular society says about it. Just because everyone is doing it doesn’t make it a right thing to do.

I would pray this young couple attends RCIA and really learns what Church teaching is and why it is Church teaching.

 

[Padres1969]

I’m sorry but I’m struggling a little with your comments. Cohabitation and ABC are against Church teaching regardless of what secular society says about it. **Just because everyone is doing it doesn’t make it a right thing to do.
**
I would pray this young couple attends RCIA and really learns what Church teaching is and why it is Church teaching.

No, but since the vast majority of Catholics disagree with church teaching on both subjects, if the priests were to limit marriage to only those not living together and/or not using ABC, they’d quickly start running out of people whom they would be marrying in the Catholic Church, and by extension likely remaining Catholic. I know Pope Benedict was talking a few years ago about a streamlined church, but that seems a bit more streamlined than it sounded like he was thinking.

 

[1ke]

I think 1ke is correct, however the intention to not be “open to procreation” can be an impediment to valid marriage.

It’s not unheard of for people to lie to their priest about cohabitation. That in itself does not make an attempt at marriage invalid.

I know people who did it, both Catholics, and the parents complicit with the deception of mail coming to their home.

It’s a terrible thing to do, but it’s pretty common.

I would discourage the lying. If I thought there was a real impediment, I’d speak up and tell the priest.

A **permanent intention against children **is a very specific thing, and it **isn’t **merely using contraception, bad as that is.

 

[Blessedwithfive]

I’m sorry but I’m struggling a little with your comments. Cohabitation and ABC are against Church teaching regardless of what secular society says about it. Just because everyone is doing it doesn’t make it a right thing to do.

I would pray this young couple attends RCIA and really learns what Church teaching is and why it is Church teaching.

I didn’t say it was right. I was stating a fact. If we excluded all who live together before marriage and who use ABC we would have VERY few left. I really think we need to meet people where they are. Hopefully they will gradually come to an understanding of the whole faith. I think this is called the “law of gradualness”

From Wikipedia:
In Catholic moral theology, the law of graduality, the law of gradualness or gradualism, is the notion that people improve their relationship with God and grow in the virtues gradually, and do not jump to perfection in a single step.[1][2][3] In terms of pastoral care, it suggests that “it is often better to encourage the positive elements in someone’s life rather than to chastise their flaws”.[2][4] It is “as old as Christianity itself”,[3] being referred to in several New Testament passages.[1]

It is distinct from “gradualness of the law”,[5] an idea that would tend to diminish the demands of the law.[4] It does not mean “that we compromise on the content of the law” but that we recognize our failings and strive to correspond to its demands over time.[3]

 

[jaimeleglise]

I believe for a valid marriage to occur, the couple must be open to having children.
Couple who are cohabitating are usually asked to stop that before the wedding occurs.

 

[rcwitness]

I believe for a valid marriage to occur, the couple must be open to having children.
Couple who are cohabitating are usually asked to stop that before the wedding occurs.

Yes. And is it merely a Priest they are lying to, or God?

 

[Padres1969]

I believe for a valid marriage to occur, the couple must be open to having children.
Couple who are cohabitating are usually asked to stop that before the wedding occurs.

But does using ABC mean the Catholic couple isn’t open to children?

 

[jmcrae]

Oh? My understanding has always been that a Catholic is a Catholic. Which would mean they’re converted. Maybe not a good convert, but a convert none the less.

Baptism cannot be undone, and neither can Profession of Faith, so in that sense, once a Catholic, always a Catholic. But this person isn’t Catholic yet, and the RCIA process isn’t just a nice formality - it is a discernment process in which either she will discover that she is not called to become a Catholic, or she will experience a heart-conversion and become determined to live as a good Catholic.

I remember when I went through the RCIA, the Bishop told our group something like, “If you have come here with the intention of becoming a bad or lukewarm Catholic, I suggest and ask that you leave right now. We don’t need you. We have enough of those kind of Catholics - we need good Catholics. We have lots of room for good Catholics, but there is no room left for bad ones - we already have enough of those.”

I can’t figure out why anyone would go through what they have to go through in the RCIA, merely in order to live the same way you were living before. That makes absolutely no sense to me. A person of integrity would look at the promises required, and would say, I can’t do that; I’m not willing to do that - I can’t become a Catholic.

 

[Padres1969]

Baptism cannot be undone, and neither can Profession of Faith, so in that sense, once a Catholic, always a Catholic. But this person isn’t Catholic yet, and the RCIA process isn’t just a nice formality - it is a discernment process in which either she will discover that she is not called to become a Catholic, or she will experience a heart-conversion and become determined to live as a good Catholic.

I remember when I went through the RCIA, **the Bishop told our group something like, “If you have come here with the intention of becoming a bad or lukewarm Catholic, I suggest and ask that you leave right now. We don’t need you. We have enough of those kind of Catholics - we need good Catholics. We have lots of room for good Catholics, but there is no room left for bad ones - we already have enough of those.” **

I can’t figure out why anyone would go through what they have to go through in the RCIA, merely in order to live the same way you were living before. That makes absolutely no sense to me. A person of integrity would look at the promises required, and would say, I can’t do that; I’m not willing to do that - I can’t become a Catholic.

I have to say, my jaw hit my desk when I read that. I mean I get his sentiment, but to hear a bishop basically tell people who might not be the best Catholics if they were to join to leave seems wrong. Shouldn’t a shepherd of the church want as many as possible to join the flock, even if they’re not perfect?

As for his assertion that there’s already enough bad or lukewarm Catholics, I’d posit that’s because the Catholic Church doesn’t let anyone leave. Many if not most of the “bad Catholics” are born into the faith and never had a say on whether they even wanted to be Catholic. If he wants bad Catholics out of the church so badly, work to let those that had no choice in becoming Catholic, to leave officially. That’ll get those “bad Catholics” off your books Your Excellency.