Insincere "conversion" -- what to say?

[rcwitness]

Christ died for us, so that all could be saved.

Including hypocrites.

Kinda hard to save them if the first thing you do is tell them to take a hike, because we (meaning Christ) don’t need them.

I think you are confusing a repentant sinner with a persistent sinner. One who lies to the Church is like someone going to the hospital and lying to the doctor when he asks important questions.

This couple should not even be sleeping together! I know it happens, and I slept with girlfriends. But after I joined the Church and was Baptized, I knew better. I still made mistakes (and always will), but I don’t lie to the Church and present myself as clean. That is hypocrisy that is not forgiven. It is blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

Acts 5
Ananias and Sapphira

But a man named Anani′as with his wife Sapphi′ra sold a piece of property, and with his wife’s knowledge he kept back some of the proceeds, and brought only a part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. But Peter said, “Anani′as, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” When Anani′as heard these words, he fell down and died. And great fear came upon all who heard of it. The young men rose and wrapped him up and carried him out and buried him.

After an interval of about three hours his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. And Peter said to her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for so much.” And she said, “Yes, for so much.” But Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? Hark, the feet of those that have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.” Immediately she fell down at his feet and died. When the young men came in they found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. And great fear came upon the whole church, and upon all who heard of these things.

 

[exnihilo]

One could argue that joining the Catholic Church in the manner the OP presented is exactly that, keeping up appearances.

I agree and had that in mind with my comment. I have greater respect for the man who says of religion, ‘this is all nonsense and I’ll have no part in it’, then the man who says the words but doesn’t mean them at all. Of course we all fall short. But having no shame about not falling short but actively ignoring and evading is a different matter.

 

[Padres1969]

It seems to me rather unkind of you to say that about the Catholic Church but you are not a Catholic, I think it is understandable. Probably there is no love lost there.

I am not surprised for a Catholic Bishop to say what he said. This is not to say that people should not become Catholics, especially sinners. Ain’t we all are. I can assure you the good Bishop certainly knew that.

But that’s not what he meant if I understand correctly when a Catholic Bishop speaks like this. He meant if you want to become Catholic, you must be sure about it and what it entails.

You see, this is the difference between Catholic and Protestant. In Catholicism, there is no “alter call”, there is no such thing after hearing a Biblical verse, a person who has never heard about Jesus accepts Him and become Christian on the spot. There is no walk in interview in Catholicism.

You have to be taught it, no less than a full liturgical calendar year, something like a year. And at the end of it, you are supposed to know enough to make an informed decision and decide whether to proceed with Baptism or not.

If the Catholic Church does not get many converts, it is perhaps of this difficulty in becoming one. People would just walk in an Evangelical church and become Christian instantly. Not in the Catholic Church.

The idea why it takes so long to become Catholic, is because the seriousness of it. It is a life changing decision and the person at least has given himself a fair chance to know what he is into.

Thus the mentioned good Bishop was quite right. If you want to become Catholic, you have to be sure that you really want to.

Please don’t see it as unkind. My comments aren’t directed at the Catholic Church as a whole, but at the bishop and his comments as they relate to Catholic policies. And I was Catholic so I speak from experience regarding the second half of my post.

And I’m familiar with Catholic initiation, and know it’s not a walk in and you’re a member proposition. Indeed my own faith isn’t an “altar call” faith as well, at least not to becoming a full received/confirmed member. It takes preparation and a period of discernment before you can be baptized, received or confirmed. Some can’t make it through that, and that’s understandable.

But to be actively trying to push souls away from your church seems to me to be the opposite of what Christ called on the apostles and his disciples to be doing. As you say, it’s difficult to become a Catholic, and rightly so since conversely from the Church’s perspective you can never leave once you’ve made the commitment. But to hear a clergyman, specifically a member of the Episcopate, actively telling people that if they’re not willing to be perfect they should forget it seems the exact opposite of his pastoral role. Maybe it was his choice of phrase, but it was not a charitable way to approach the subject.

 

[jmcrae]

Wow.

Just, wow.

Such an enthralling thread on evangelism and seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit! Such testaments to encouraging the weak (Begone! We don’t need you!).

I am reminded of the Pharisees, and in particular the scene of the Pharisee and the sinner in temple.

Is the young woman seeking to become a Catholic wrong? Yep.

Is confronting her and beating her about the head and shouldeers in a fashion she will immediately identify as judgmental an effective way to get her to change her behavior?

I have yet to see that work.

Do we need to speak the truth? Absolutely; but if we cannot do it in a way that does not use a cudgel, then perhaps we should pray - daily - for the intervention of the Holy Spirit, and ask that same Spirit to guide us in anything we do. And in the meantime, perhaps we should shut up.

And pray more.

And perhaps we should remember that one of the really great saints of the Church was a fornicator, among other sins that they seemed intent on bringing to perfection, before their conversion experience. As in, St. Augustine.

Wonder how that would have turned out if a bishop had said the same thing to him…

His Bishop did say the same thing to him -which is why he was middle aged before he converted. He repented of his sins prior to being Baptized.

 

[jmcrae]

Christ died for us, so that all could be saved.

Including hypocrites.

Kinda hard to save them if the first thing you do is tell them to take a hike, because we (meaning Christ) don’t need them.

This was not “first thing” - this was at the Rite of Election, seven weeks before they get Baptized, Confirmed, and receive First Holy Communion.

Second, he wasn’t telling them to “take a hike,” but to be mindful of their motives, and don’t feel pressured to get Baptized for the wrong reasons, especially if they will never be seen in Church again because they have no intentions of living as Catholics. At this point in the journey, they know what the Church teaches and what supports are available.

No one left, by the way - they all went up to receive the Rite.

 

[otjm]

Open to life here must be understood in conjunction with the sex act. Husband and wife when they engage in every sex act, the couple must be open to the possibility of conception (of a child) as a result of the union - its purpose as two-fold, unity and procreation.

This is even when NFP is employed that the couple too must be open to the possibility of conception.

A candidate for Baptism or pre-nuptial couple therefore has to make that vow of accepting the belief of the Church and especially for the latter not to engage in birth control. In my area of the world, in their pre-nuptial seminar, they are especially taught this and the priest has the prerogative not to marry them if they refuse such belief.

I don’t think you read the post I was responding to.

 

[otjm]

This was not “first thing” - this was at the Rite of Election, seven weeks before they get Baptized, Confirmed, and receive First Holy Communion.

Second, he wasn’t telling them to “take a hike,” but to be mindful of their motives, and don’t feel pressured to get Baptized for the wrong reasons, especially if they will never be seen in Church again because they have no intentions of living as Catholics. At this point in the journey, they know what the Church teaches and what supports are available.

No one left, by the way - they all went up to receive the Rite.

As I said, there are a multitude of ways to say that one needs to seriously consider what one is entering upon.

I work with Catholics Returning Home - and I am well aware that the number I can help reconcile with the Church is not even a drop in the bucket. I am also intensely aware that many people, upon hearing the bishop’s comments, would never darken the door of the Church again, and would carry their resentment openly, thus infecting others with it. It is amazing how many people trying to return to the Church only remember what they took for condemnation, and what a barrier it has been for long in their lives.

I will gladly stand by my posts. As the bishop’s words were related, and I am assuming they are not someone’s attempt to paraphrase, I find them extremely disturbing. They are not, for example, what I would expect to hear from someone, say, such as Archbishop Chaput, or Bishop Barron.

 

[Rosebud77]

Please don’t see it as unkind. My comments aren’t directed at the Catholic Church as a whole, but at the bishop and his comments as they relate to Catholic policies. And I was Catholic so I speak from experience regarding the second half of my post.

And I’m familiar with Catholic initiation, and know it’s not a walk in and you’re a member proposition. Indeed my own faith isn’t an “altar call” faith as well, at least not to becoming a full received/confirmed member. It takes preparation and a period of discernment before you can be baptized, received or confirmed. Some can’t make it through that, and that’s understandable.

But to be actively trying to push souls away from your church seems to me to be the opposite of what Christ called on the apostles and his disciples to be doing. As you say, it’s difficult to become a Catholic, and rightly so since conversely from the Church’s perspective you can never leave once you’ve made the commitment. But to hear a clergyman, specifically a member of the Episcopate, actively telling people that if they’re not willing to be perfect they should forget it seems the exact opposite of his pastoral role. Maybe it was his choice of phrase, but it was not a charitable way to approach the subject.

See my bolded. I did not read the good bishop as saying what you are paraphrasing. rather as exhorting and making the people face the totality and seriousness of what they are doing and as such I applaud him. It is very different being weak and being purposefully and knowingly against the teachings of the church they propose to enter. Weakness needs us; deliberate sin is a different matter. It is serious hypocrisy.
He was in no way pushing souls away! Quite the opposite

 

[jmcrae]

See my bolded. I did not read the good bishop as saying what you are paraphrasing. rather as exhorting and making the people face the totality and seriousness of what they are doing and as such I applaud him. It is very different being weak and being purposefully and knowingly against the teachings of the church they propose to enter. Weakness needs us; deliberate sin is a different matter. It is serious hypocrisy.
He was in no way pushing souls away! Quite the opposite

In my case it inspires me every day to go the extra mile and be the best Catholic I can be, even to the point of sacrificing small comforts such as sleeping in, or spending time watching TV.

 

[Padres1969]

See my bolded. I did not read the good bishop as saying what you are paraphrasing. rather as exhorting and making the people face the totality and seriousness of what they are doing and as such I applaud him. It is very different being weak and being purposefully and knowingly against the teachings of the church they propose to enter. Weakness needs us; deliberate sin is a different matter. It is serious hypocrisy.
He was in no way pushing souls away! Quite the opposite

Perhaps it’s a difference in reading it from being inside and being outside the Catholic church. From the outside it seems as I stated. But it clearly has a different meaning for you being an insider.

 

[Rosebud77]

Perhaps it’s a difference in reading it from being inside and being outside the Catholic church. From the outside it seems as I stated. But it clearly has a different meaning for you being an insider.

Yes I had thought that about other of your posts… I have the"advantage" of being brought up Church of England and the difference you highlight is a part of the difference between the churches. Hard to express it without seeming disrespectful and that I assure you I am not/ One of the huge changes in the Anglican churches since my childhood and young adulthood ( I am well over 70 now) is that then I would have read the bishop exactly as I do now. Nowadays few Anglicans would do that. You have adopted a great focus on choice rather than authority. There seems to be no absolute any more. We in RC still have that authority and, yes, purity. Thank you as I needed to see this.

 

[Rosebud77]

In my case it inspires me every day to go the extra mile and be the best Catholic I can be, even to the point of sacrificing small comforts such as sleeping in, or spending time watching TV.

 

[HelenRose]

Greetings, CAF friends,

There is a young couple that I know who are engaged. The bride-to-be was raised in an evangelical Protestant church, but was never baptized. She wants to be baptized into the Catholic Church so that she and her fiance can be a “nice Catholic family”…except, she doesn’t accept a fair number of the Church’s teachings. They are cohabiting and using contraception, and when asked what she was going to do about this, she said that they don’t intend to let the priest know – they plan to list their parents’ addresses as their home addresses when they fill out the paperwork, and she said that she has no intention of stopping her BC pills. Her fiance doesn’t seem to have a problem with all of this. In other words, they plan to lie to the priest by omission and deception. Doesn’t this make the sacraments invalid? And how does one react when she talks about their plans? I pray that during the RCIA process, she will truly be converted, but in the mean time I don’t know what to say without the risk of alienating her altogether. Suggestions? Thanks and God bless.

You don’t know her journey so mind your own business. She may very well become a good Catholic. God takes people down strange paths when He beckons. This is between her, her fiancé, the priest and most important God.

 

[Rosebud77]

Cohabitation is not the taboo it once was. Our priest says it is very rare that he marries a couple that isn’t living together. Same with ABC. According to the studies most catholics use it. Does she agree with the creed? If so, then I think she has a better than average chance to “participate in the church fully”. I was told that was the new way to say someone is converting to Catholicism.

At the first Catholic wedding I attended ( happenstance not planned attendance!) the couple’s 9 year old son was the best man. At a secret wedding I helped to happen the couple’s toddler was having a fine time running up and down the aisles… seems so common here ( Ireland)

 

[Rosebud77]

Interesting and you are so organised over there… When I came to Ireland, a rural part, and sought to change from my Church of England roots, the first priest, or rather the first several priests I approached told me it did nto matter so no need to change The very first one asked e to teach the rosary class at Church… even the Bishop seemed fazed,

 

[scapularkid8]

tl;dr

How is any of this private matter any of the OP’s business?! How are we to judge someone else’s heart in their conversion or sinfulness!?

 

[rcwitness]

tl;dr

How is any of this private matter any of the OP’s business?! How are we to judge someone else’s heart in their conversion or sinfulness!?

Well, it’s called Admonishing the Sinner, one of the 7 Spiritual Works of Mercy.

 

[rcwitness]

You don’t know her journey so mind your own business. She may very well become a good Catholic. God takes people down strange paths when He beckons. This is between her, her fiancé, the priest and most important God.

tl;dr

How is any of this private matter any of the OP’s business?! How are we to judge someone else’s heart in their conversion or sinfulness!?

One of the 7 Works of Mercy is to Admonish the Sinner.

 

[otjm]

One of the 7 Works of Mercy is to Admonish the Sinner.

However, with all sorts of people ready to admonish sinners, I am reminded of Christ’s statement: “let he who is without sin cast the first stone”. Given the discussion was about someone clearly caught in adultery, it possibly might give pause to those who tend to others’ sins.

When someone who is admonished about their sin leaves the Church, more than once I have heard “well, that is their problem”, never acknowledging that it was the way the admonishment was made which triggered the separation.

I have no question that the Holy Spirit can lead us, on occasion, to admonish someone. The operative term being “on occasion”.

I realize you are responding to other posters, but it is helpful on occasion to review the OP. Her last statement was: “I pray that during the RCIA process, she will truly be converted, but in the mean time I don’t know what to say without the risk of alienating her altogether. Suggestions?”

Even she is aware that “admonishing the sinner” can result in a very negative response. Additionally, the friend she was concerned about would have to go through RCIA to be baptized; admonishing her (and from the post it was obvious something had already been said) may simply drive the friend away from the Church.

 

[Reuben_J]

You don’t know her journey so mind your own business. She may very well become a good Catholic. God takes people down strange paths when He beckons. This is between her, her fiancé, the priest and most important God.

To be a good brother or a sister to her is to support and to journey with her without judging her. Love does not mean to be indifference.