Insincere "conversion" -- what to say?

[otjm]

To be a good brother or a sister to her is to support and to journey with her without judging her. Love does not mean to be indifference.

I don’t think the OP is indifferent, but does show a concern about what might result if the OP says more. and her question, knowing saying more could cause problems, is “What should I say”.

I agree with you and Helen Rose both, in that I feel that continuing to speak may not have the results some admonishers would hope for.

 

[Rosebud77]

I don’t think the OP is indifferent, but does show a concern about what might result if the OP says more. and her question, knowing saying more could cause problems, is “What should I say”.

I agree with you and Helen Rose both, in that I feel that continuing to speak may not have the results some admonishers would hope for.

Discernment in these matters is hard but I think it it the airing on a public forum that offends? The person cannot explain or even listen so a narrow line between this and gossip, which the catechism abhors.

A while ago I was chatting to a young woman at a local beauty spot About rental houses in the area… She had just moved into one, with, then she said and gave that uneasy laugh, her partner. OH said she, we did not use to be able to say tha t now everyone does it. Very quietly I said, But it is still wrong… No overt reaction but who knows? No one else says these things do they? No one is teaching morality are they? When asked I do so quietly and without accusation, and I listen

 

[rcwitness]

However, with all sorts of people ready to admonish sinners, I am reminded of Christ’s statement: “let he who is without sin cast the first stone”. Given the discussion was about someone clearly caught in adultery, it possibly might give pause to those who tend to others’ sins.

When someone who is admonished about their sin leaves the Church, more than once I have heard “well, that is their problem”, never acknowledging that it was the way the admonishment was made which triggered the separation.

I have no question that the Holy Spirit can lead us, on occasion, to admonish someone. The operative term being “on occasion”.

I realize you are responding to other posters, but it is helpful on occasion to review the OP. Her last statement was: “I pray that during the RCIA process, she will truly be converted, but in the mean time I don’t know what to say without the risk of alienating her altogether. Suggestions?”

Even she is aware that “admonishing the sinner” can result in a very negative response. Additionally, the friend she was concerned about would have to go through RCIA to be baptized; admonishing her (and from the post it was obvious something had already been said) may simply drive the friend away from the Church.

The fact that the candidate for Baptism “may not respond well” to being informed of sinfullness should not be an occasion to condone his/her sin. Admonishing a sinner does truly take the guidance of the Holy Spirit. And the Christian must discern their own life before admonishing others.

You should not judge the person who desires to admonish!

I truly believe it is a work that is stifled by the Devil. The Church members lack the Charity and courage to admonish one another in the Spirit of God.

Someone approaching Baptism should have a humble and willing attitude. They should be acknowledging their sinful nature and accept the conversion of heart to the good deeds that God compels. To approach and receive Baptism while holding on to sin is not healthy at all. And we should never just excuse ourselves and them under the pretense that they may change sometime in the future.

That said, I realize there is a point of “letting go” after admonishing. And it shouldn’t give occasion to be prideful. It is unfortunate, and only after admonishment, should we leave it to hope and prayer alone.

 

[rcwitness]

I don’t think the OP is indifferent, but does show a concern about what might result if the OP says more. and her question, knowing saying more could cause problems, is “What should I say”.

I agree with you and Helen Rose both, in that I feel that continuing to speak may not have the results some admonishers would hope for.

Jesus said…

“Whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s foes will be those of his own household. He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it.“ He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives him who sent me.”

And also this:

“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.”

 

[HelenRose]

One of the 7 Works of Mercy is to Admonish the Sinner.

How many souls have you brought to Christ by admonishing the sinner?

There is a very thin line between admonishing the sinner and being a self righteous smug busy body.

Unless you know exactly what you are doing, have been properly trained, know the people well, understand their journey and have their love and trust it is very easy to cross that line.

 

[rcwitness]

How many souls have you brought to Christ by admonishing the sinner?

How do you know I wasn’t the one admonished?

There is a very thin line between admonishing the sinner and being a self righteous smug busy body.

There is a line, and it’s whether someone is compelled by love or pride.

Unless you know exactly what you are doing, have been properly trained, know the people well, understand their journey and have their love and trust it is very easy to cross that line.

So what is your point? To scare people from loving their neighbor because it’s too risky? That is exactly why people decide to ignore things. It’s feeling inferior, inadequate, unworthy, shameful, etc. It’s what the devil desires, and how he subdue us.

 

[HelenRose]

How do you know I wasn’t the one admonished?

There is a line, and it’s whether someone is compelled by love or pride.

So what is your point? To scare people from loving their neighbor because it’s too risky? That is exactly why people decide to ignore things. It’s feeling inferior, inadequate, unworthy, shameful, etc. It’s what the devil desires, and how he subdue us.

I am sorry that I assumed that you were the one admonishing.

I didn’t do that on purpose but it does show what I mean by not knowing someone’s journey, who they are and admonishing them while not knowing what I was doing.

I crossed that line even as I was admonishing you and I apologize.

 

[rcwitness]

I am sorry that I assumed that you were the one admonishing.

I didn’t do that on purpose but it does show what I mean by not knowing someone’s journey, who they are and admonishing them while not knowing what I was doing.

I crossed that line even as I was admonishing you and I apologize.

Peace. I wish I was stronger, but I am not. I sometimes need admonishing. It has been by my father, my wife, or friends. It’s usually most effective when no ill will is intended

Still, I am stubborn, foolish and prone to sin. I wish others would admonish me more. All they need to say is, “…for the sake of our Lord Jesus”. It dispels my lust, pride, envy, selfishness, etc.

To the OP, all I can say is listen to the Holy Spirit and know that love is His way. He is fearless and bold, yet meek and compassionate. We are hostile and crafty.

 

[otjm]

Peace. I wish I was stronger, but I am not. I sometimes need admonishing. It has been by my father, my wife, or friends. It’s usually most effective when no ill will is intended

Still, I am stubborn, foolish and prone to sin. I wish others would admonish me more. All they need to say is, “…for the sake of our Lord Jesus”. It dispels my lust, pride, envy, selfishness, etc.

To the OP, all I can say is listen to the Holy Spirit and know that love is His way. He is fearless and bold, yet meek and compassionate. We are hostile and crafty.

I am going to guess that I am a good bit older than you and have seen a good bit more than you. Just a guess, but a wager I am willing to make.

for a number of years I have been involved with Catholics Returning Home - people who have been away from the Church for years - in some circumstances, 4 to 6 decades. And it is surprising how many of them left because someone “admonished” them.

I have been present when some have “admonished” others, and the anger, and the self-righteousness has made me cringe.

The OP clearly sees that admonishing this friend is fraught with the very real possibility of doing it wrong - a point which those who are so gung ho to admonish appear to have no perception as to even the possibility.

Someone who has built a trusting relationship with another may be able to admonish. And it is the trust relationship which allows that. Without that, one is seriously at risk of at the minimum of being ignored, and risks driving the person corrected farther away from God, not closer.

It is highly likely, given the culture of today among those between 13 and 35, that there is no concept of sinfulness in shacking up. And simply quoting Scripture, or telling them secondhandedly that such is a sin is going to fall flatter than water on a platter. It will be a statement of no content, as it is highly likely the individual is at the very best, simply a cultural Christian; more likely simply a pagan.

And I will posit that I will have a goodly number of priests who would back me that the OP should refer the matter to someone else; and they are all priests who follow the Magisterium.

I don’t need you quoting Scripture to me - I am already aware of it. I am also aware of how many times there has been a serious dose of self-righteousness in the comments made, and how many times there has been an angry delivery. I gladly stand by my posts.

 

[rcwitness]

newadvent.org/cathen/04394a.htm

newadvent.org/cathen/10198d.htm

 

[rcwitness]

blog.adw.org/2009/11/fraternal-correction-the-forgotten-virtue/

 

[Jake_Parker]

No, lying to the priest does not make the marriage invalid, per se. It would depend upon what they were lying about and whether they were lying about an essential property of marriage when they exchange vows.

If you are in RCIA in an official capacity-- sponsor, director, team member, etc.-- it is your duty to inform the pastor of the situation so that appropriate counsel can take place.

If you are a “friend” with no direct authority over her in the conversion process, then prayer for her is in order. You can also remind her that lying is wrong, always. **You can remind her that she does not have to become a Catholic to be married to a Catholic or in the Catholic Church. ** You can remind her that sincere conversion comes through humble submission to the authority of the Church.

You may or may not retain her friendship after reminding her that what she is doing is not cute, it’s wrong. That’s the chance you take.

If you seriously doubt that she and her fiancé can enter a valid marriage-- that a true impediment exists-- then you are bound to reveal that to the pastor prior to their marriage.

Okay - Because every non-Catholic person I know that has married a Catholic, they told me they were required to become Catholic in order to be married in the Catholic Church.

Are the rules different in Minnesota than other states? Does it vary by diocese?
I thought the rules were universal within the CC, unlike with Protestants where it varies from church to church.

 

[rcwitness]

Okay - Because every non-Catholic person I know that has married a Catholic, they told me they were required to become Catholic in order to be married in the Catholic Church.

Are the rules different in Minnesota than other states? Does it vary by diocese?
I thought the rules were universal within the CC, unlike with Protestants where it varies from church to church.

The Sacrament must be Catholic, to be valid, if one spouse is Catholic.

1ke is very knowledgeable in Church law, and I’m almost certain that you were told wrong. Both spouses do not need to be Catholic for a valid marriage.

 

[rcwitness]

And I will posit that I will have a goodly number of priests who would back me that the OP should refer the matter to someone else; and they are all priests who follow the Magisterium.

Who is someone else? Why is this better?

I don’t need you quoting Scripture to me - I am already aware of it. I am also aware of how many times there has been a serious dose of self-righteousness in the comments made, and how many times there has been an angry delivery. I gladly stand by my posts.

My posts are not only for your benefit, but for all who read this thread. Scripture should not be discouraged.

 

[Jake_Parker]

I’m sure they were wrong, I just had to ask.

 

[rcwitness]

And I will posit that I will have a goodly number of priests who would back me that the OP should refer the matter to someone else; and they are all priests who follow the Magisterium.

Who is someone else? Why is this better?

… come to think of it… isn’t that just jumping straight to the second measure of admonishment? The first measure is to confront privately. This is done out of respect.

What you are proposing is more like “passing the buck” or tattling.

I believe 1ke’s suggestion is best. To inform the person that becoming Catholic is not necessary, or even appropriate under the circumstances. To merely express that it’s deceitful. They can be married without both being Catholic.

 

[jmcrae]

Okay - Because every non-Catholic person I know that has married a Catholic, they told me they were required to become Catholic in order to be married in the Catholic Church.

Are the rules different in Minnesota than other states? Does it vary by diocese?
I thought the rules were universal within the CC, unlike with Protestants where it varies from church to church.

It probably varies by Diocese. For a Catholic to marry a non-Catholic there is permission required from the Bishop, and there may be some Bishops who choose not to allow it.

 

[HelenRose]

I am going to guess that I am a good bit older than you and have seen a good bit more than you. Just a guess, but a wager I am willing to make.

for a number of years I have been involved with Catholics Returning Home - people who have been away from the Church for years - in some circumstances, 4 to 6 decades. And it is surprising how many of them left because someone “admonished” them.

I have been present when some have “admonished” others, and the anger, and the self-righteousness has made me cringe.

The OP clearly sees that admonishing this friend is fraught with the very real possibility of doing it wrong - a point which those who are so gung ho to admonish appear to have no perception as to even the possibility.

Someone who has built a trusting relationship with another may be able to admonish. And it is the trust relationship which allows that. Without that, one is seriously at risk of at the minimum of being ignored, and risks driving the person corrected farther away from God, not closer.

It is highly likely, given the culture of today among those between 13 and 35, that there is no concept of sinfulness in shacking up. And simply quoting Scripture, or telling them secondhandedly that such is a sin is going to fall flatter than water on a platter. It will be a statement of no content, as it is highly likely the individual is at the very best, simply a cultural Christian; more likely simply a pagan.

And I will posit that I will have a goodly number of priests who would back me that the OP should refer the matter to someone else; and they are all priests who follow the Magisterium.

I don’t need you quoting Scripture to me - I am already aware of it. I am also aware of how many times there has been a serious dose of self-righteousness in the comments made, and how many times there has been an angry delivery. I gladly stand by my posts.

You said this much better than I ever could.

I have seen the effects of “admonishing” also and it isn’t productive at all. I don’t believe that actions that push people away are acts of Spiritual Mercy.

 

[rcwitness]

You said this much better than I ever could.

I have seen the effects of “admonishing” also and it isn’t productive at all. I don’t believe that actions that push people away are acts of Spiritual Mercy.

Sorry, But I don’t understand your reasoning. Maybe you both are assuming that because you have seen people admonish others poorly, then admonishing is wrong?

Jesus and His Apostles tell us to admonish others who are in the faith. Jesus says that if they do not turn from a sin, after all attempts are made, they are to be rejected.

Read the articles I posted. It’s not just an opinion I’m making, but Church Teaching.

 

[jmcrae]

You said this much better than I ever could.

I have seen the effects of “admonishing” also and it isn’t productive at all. I don’t believe that actions that push people away are acts of Spiritual Mercy.

I have seen signs at the swimming pool asking people to shower and get clean before entering the pool. Is it wrong to point out that the dust and grime of the street and the sweat from the heat of the day needs to be washed off before you can go into a public pool? Or is that “judgemental”? I hope you would say that it’s common decency and a good reminder.

This is the same thing. We want to ask this young lady to purify her motives before calling herself a Catholic and partaking of the Sacraments. Obviously it needs to be done gently and without making her feel exposed or shamed - but to just let her carry on like there’s nothing the matter with her current situation will also do her no favours, and years from now, when she understands the situation, she will ask, “Why did no one tell me? I have racked up years of pain in Purgatory that could have been prevented with a single word of wisdom when I first started out. Someone could have just said something.”