Insincere "conversion" -- what to say?

[rcwitness]

I have seen signs at the swimming pool asking people to shower and get clean before entering the pool. Is it wrong to point out that the dust and grime of the street and the sweat from the heat of the day needs to be washed off before you can go into a public pool? Or is that “judgemental”? I hope you would say that it’s common decency and a good reminder.

This is the same thing. We want to ask this young lady to purify her motives before calling herself a Catholic and partaking of the Sacraments. Obviously it needs to be done gently and without making her feel exposed or shamed - but to just let her carry on like there’s nothing the matter with her current situation will also do her no favours, and years from now, when she understands the situation, she will ask, “Why did no one tell me? I have racked up years of pain in Purgatory that could have been prevented with a single word of wisdom when I first started out. Someone could have just said something.”

Thank you.
We actually have an obligation. And it shouldn’t be a chore, but an occasion to do what is pleasing.

Consider John the Baptist. He knew he would be held accountable if he did not warn Herod of unlawful marriage. It didn’t make Herod turn to God. He hardened his heart and even had John killed! But he still had an obligation to admonish.

Our Fraternal Corrections certainly have less consequences e than John’s.

 

[Reuben_J]

I have seen signs at the swimming pool asking people to shower and get clean before entering the pool. Is it wrong to point out that the dust and grime of the street and the sweat from the heat of the day needs to be washed off before you can go into a public pool? Or is that “judgemental”? I hope you would say that it’s common decency and a good reminder.

This is the same thing. We want to ask this young lady to purify her motives before calling herself a Catholic and partaking of the Sacraments. Obviously it needs to be done gently and without making her feel exposed or shamed - but to just let her carry on like there’s nothing the matter with her current situation will also do her no favours, and years from now, when she understands the situation, she will ask, “Why did no one tell me? I have racked up years of pain in Purgatory that could have been prevented with a single word of wisdom when I first started out. Someone could have just said something.”

:sad_yes:

 

[otjm]

Sorry, But I don’t understand your reasoning. Maybe you both are assuming that because you have seen people admonish others poorly, then admonishing is wrong?

Jesus and His Apostles tell us to admonish others who are in the faith. Jesus says that if they do not turn from a sin, after all attempts are made, they are to be rejected.

Read the articles I posted. It’s not just an opinion I’m making, but Church Teaching.

The reasoning is really not that hard at all. And neither of us said that admonishing is wrong.

I will put it simply. To quote an old song: “Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.”

I am really tired, after all these years, of people rushing about to admonish others. The OP gets it as to how much damage can be done by admonishing poorly. So does Helen, and I get it too. It appears that you don’t.

As has been said in the thread, one should not presume that one is in the position to admonish; if one is going to admonish, one should spend some serious time in prayer for guidance; and there are times - many of them - where it is better to let someone who is actually trained in how to admonish to do so, instead of sticking one’s oar in the pond and stirring.

The world is full of self-righteous people, and they go about doing damage. I am doing the best I can to repair some of that damage.

I am not going to argue with you, as it appears that you do not read carefully what I write (such as turning it around as if I am suggesting that admonishing is wrong).

Have a nice day.

 

[pianistclare]

You said this much better than I ever could.

I have seen the effects of “admonishing” also and it isn’t productive at all. I don’t believe that actions that push people away are acts of Spiritual Mercy.

+1

I recall Christ writing the sins of others who were quick to point out the sins of others in the dirt…

May we all be spared the ruthless scrutiny of others.
We lose so many people because someone scolded them and were very uncharitable and wrong in the first place.

 

[rcwitness]

+1

I recall Christ writing the sins of others who were quick to point out the sins of others in the dirt…

May we all be spared the ruthless scrutiny of others.
We lose so many people because someone scolded them and were very uncharitable and wrong in the first place.

Who is suggesting “ruthless scrutiny”???

Jesus was stopping the stoning of a woman. She was not continuing in adultery while going to be Baptized.

This is what Jesus said to her:

Jesus looked up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and do not sin again.”
Do you believe she continued as she was without repenting?
Please tell me you can understand the difference?

 

[Reuben_J]

They will also be required to take a marriage preparation seminar of some kind, and hopefully the instructors will provide effective sex education.

At one time some years back I was involved in conducting pre-marriage seminars for couples intending to get married in the Catholic Church in our parish (archdiocese). Yes, we included in the module, a topic on Christian sexuality which among other things, explained the prohibition of artificial birth control (pills, IUD, morning after pills, condoms, etc.) and included a talk on natural family planning (NFP) which was approved by the Church. Usually a guest speaker, a nurse or someone from the family planning division in the hospital would be invited to do that. We realized that birth control among Catholic couples needed to be addressed. Thus a couple wanting to get married in the Church would not miss on this issue nor were they in doubt on the Church’s teaching regarding it.

 

[pianistclare]

Who is suggesting “ruthless scrutiny”???

Jesus was stopping the stoning of a woman. She was not continuing in adultery while going to be Baptized.

This is what Jesus said to her:

Jesus looked up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and do not sin again.”
Do you believe she continued as she was without repenting?
Please tell me you can understand the difference?

I’m talking about people TODAY.

Boy, you really took my statement way off target there.

 

[rcwitness]

I’m talking about people TODAY.

Boy, you really took my statement way off target there.

You used the story of the adultress to compare to admonishment today. I don’t think anyone here is suggesting the death penalty for admonishment.

I realize excessive “admonishment” happens. I wouldn’t call that admonishment. That is judging cruelly and… well, excessively.

Jesus does warn us to not judge, but admonish only after we examine ourselves and remove obsticles of fault.

“Judge not, that you be not judged.*For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.*Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?*Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye?*You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye."

He is condemning hypocrisy, not Fraternal Correction (Admonishing the Sinner).

St. Paul also recognizes when admonishing can be excessive. We should hold others accountable and help them see a fault. But if and when they show remorse, there is no need to add hurt, shame, punishment, embarrassment, etc.

"…But if any one has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure—not to put it too severely—to you all. For such a one this punishment by the majority is enough;*so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow.So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him.

I think Catholics lack Fraternal Correction these days. Do some, even many, judge harshly? Maybe… but I see the lack of righteous admonish mentioned for one another the true problem. And proper self examination goes hand in hand with this.

 

[Reuben_J]

I think Catholics lack Fraternal Correction these days. Do some, even many, judge harshly? Maybe… but I see the lack of righteous admonish mentioned for one another the true problem. And proper self examination goes hand in hand with this.

I think many posters here agree with the needs for fraternal correction – correcting with love.

I guess that was the tone of the OP when he introduced this thread. There have been good advices for that – like fraternal correction (though they did not use this phrase) and also to keep the friend in prayers.

This is actually what we should do as fellow Christians. We are not to be excused for abdicating on this role especially since we know what is wrong. That should be shared with those who have not known better.

I do not know how this thread could go off tangent and fraternal correction quickly to be understood as judging. I guess in the modern world today, where we guard our independence very seriously, any little resemblance to admonishing would tend to be seen as judging; intruding into one’s privacy in what is between God and oneself.

Sure, if we do not know how to admonish, then we should not do it. Though having acknowledged that, it could be more of an excuse of not wanting to ‘meddle’ in another person’s business.

That should not be the case. Biblically we are all exhorted to admonish (for want of better word) when a fellow believer is in sin or when we see one. If he/she does not repent, then the consequence will be upon him/her and we are freed from it but if we don’t, even though we know it is wrong, then God also puts the consequence on us too (for not advising the one who sins).

I think there is a passage on this in the Old Testament but for now, it is escaping my mind.

 

[rcwitness]

I think many posters here agree with the needs for fraternal correction – correcting with love.

I guess that was the tone of the OP when he introduced this thread. There have been good advices for that – like fraternal correction (though they did not use this phrase) and also to keep the friend in prayers.

This is actually what we should do as fellow Christians. We are not to be excused for abdicating on this role especially since we know what is wrong. That should be shared with those who have not known better.

I do not know how this thread could go off tangent and fraternal correction quickly to be understood as judging. I guess in the modern world today, where we guard our independence very seriously, any little resemblance to admonishing would tend to be seen as judging; intruding into one’s privacy in what is between God and oneself.

Sure, if we do not know how to admonish, then we should not do it. Though having acknowledged that, it could be more of an excuse of not wanting to ‘meddle’ in another person’s business.

That should not be the case. Biblically we are all exhorted to admonish (for want of better word) when a fellow believer is in sin or when we see one. If he/she does not repent, then the consequence will be upon him/her and we are freed from it but if we don’t, even though we know it is wrong, then God also puts the consequence on us too (for not advising the one who sins.

 

[jmcrae]

At one time some years back I was involved in conducting pre-marriage seminars for couples intending to get married in the Catholic Church in our parish (archdiocese). Yes, we included in the module, a topic on Christian sexuality which among other things, explained the prohibition of artificial birth control (pills, IUD, morning after pills, condoms, etc.) and included a talk on natural family planning (NFP) which was approved by the Church. Usually a guest speaker, a nurse or someone from the family planning division in the hospital would be invited to do that. We realized that birth control among Catholic couples needed to be addressed. Thus a couple wanting to get married in the Church would not miss on this issue nor were they in doubt on the Church’s teaching regarding it.

Awesome.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I am going to guess that I am a good bit older than you and have seen a good bit more than you. Just a guess, but a wager I am willing to make.

for a number of years I have been involved with Catholics Returning Home - people who have been away from the Church for years - in some circumstances, 4 to 6 decades. And it is surprising how many of them left because someone “admonished” them.

I have been present when some have “admonished” others, and the anger, and the self-righteousness has made me cringe.

The OP clearly sees that admonishing this friend is fraught with the very real possibility of doing it wrong - a point which those who are so gung ho to admonish appear to have no perception as to even the possibility.

Someone who has built a trusting relationship with another may be able to admonish. And it is the trust relationship which allows that. Without that, one is seriously at risk of at the minimum of being ignored, and risks driving the person corrected farther away from God, not closer.

It is highly likely, given the culture of today among those between 13 and 35, that there is no concept of sinfulness in shacking up. And simply quoting Scripture, or telling them secondhandedly that such is a sin is going to fall flatter than water on a platter. It will be a statement of no content, as it is highly likely the individual is at the very best, simply a cultural Christian; more likely simply a pagan.

And I will posit that I will have a goodly number of priests who would back me that the OP should refer the matter to someone else; and they are all priests who follow the Magisterium.

I don’t need you quoting Scripture to me - I am already aware of it. I am also aware of how many times there has been a serious dose of self-righteousness in the comments made, and how many times there has been an angry delivery. I gladly stand by my posts.

You are exactly correct in what you write about the negative impact a person’s attempt to “admonish” or otherwise intervene can have.

As to the original post, the pastor of the person contemplating entering the Church is the one with the cura animarum. The matter is uniquely his.

And I would be one of those priests who would concur with what you have written. You have said it all very well.

 

[rcwitness]

You are exactly correct in what you write about the negative impact a person’s attempt to “admonish” or otherwise intervene can have.

Hello Fr. I don’t understand. Are you discouraging Admonishment?

As to the original post, the pastor of the person contemplating entering the Church is the one with the cura animarum. The matter is uniquely his.

How is the matter “uniquely his” if he is not the person with the knowledge of the deceit?

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Hello Fr. I don’t understand. Are you discouraging Admonishment?

Admonition has its proper place. It, however, has to be done guided by virtue and marshaled by prudence. It is never to be done indiscriminately.

A parent has a latitude to admonish his or her child in a way that the child does not regarding the parent.

The question is not simply if a person is in need of admonishment – it is also a case, ecclesiologically, of who properly should admonish…and who should not admonish. In the above example, the parish priest might have occasion to simultaneously admonish the child and the parent as well.

How is the matter “uniquely his” if he is not the person with the knowledge of the deceit?

The matter is uniquely his because the parish priest is the only one, beside the bishop himself, who has the cura animarum for the soul being talked about.

The Church is hierarchical…it is not a society of equals.

It is perfectly proper for the original poster to discuss her concerns, that arise from conversations she has had with this person, with the parish priest of the person concerned; I would have welcomed such insight. But it is not proper for such a person to insert themselves into a situation, or in any way to assume a prerogative, that is not proper to them.

Given that the original poster is incorrect in conclusions she draws about validity, she does well to be concerned about her ability to speak to the issues or the situation because, in fact, she can say things that are utterly incorrect. That is, of course, above and beyond the concern arising naturally that her effort may, and likely would, end the friendship.

I have had occasion myself to admonish – not to say rebuke – parishioners, and even junior clergy, about the need to tread very cautiously when one begins to stray into an areas that regards the parish priest’s proper cura animarum as well as jurisdiction…and above all in situations where one is out of one’s depth. Often such people do much more harm than they do any good.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

How many souls have you brought to Christ by admonishing the sinner?

There is a very thin line between admonishing the sinner and being a self righteous smug busy body.

Unless you know exactly what you are doing, have been properly trained, know the people well, understand their journey and have their love and trust it is very easy to cross that line.

The principles you articulate are fundamentally correct.

 

[Kielbasi]

Greetings, CAF friends,

There is a young couple that I know who are engaged. The bride-to-be was raised in an evangelical Protestant church, but was never baptized. She wants to be baptized into the Catholic Church so that she and her fiance can be a “nice Catholic family”…except, she doesn’t accept a fair number of the Church’s teachings. , Suggestions? Thanks and God bless.

You’ll have this kind of thing from time to time, although usually its the man who will look to convert to impress the woman, not the reverse.

Count on the priest and experienced staff to work this out, count on God to reach the young lady’s heart on this. I’m sure its nothing that they haven’t seen before.

 

[rcwitness]

Admonition has its proper place. It, however, has to be done guided by virtue and marshaled by prudence. It is never to be done indiscriminately.

Yes, I agree.

A parent has a latitude to admonish his or her child in a way that the child does not regarding the parent.

Yes, that’s true.

The question is not simply if a person is in need of admonishment – it is also a case, ecclesiologically, of who properly should admonish…and who should not admonish.

Yes, I’m following…

In the above example, the parish priest might have occasion to simultaneously admonish the child and the parent as well.

Who is the child here? The candidate in question is an adult going through RCIA. She is engaged to be married.

The matter is uniquely his because the parish priest is the only one, beside the bishop himself, who has the cura animarum for the soul being talked about.

In a sense, of course. But the parish priest is not always the director who is ministering the Christian Initiation, right? So again, he is most likely not directly involved.

The Church is hierarchical…it is not a society of equals.

I believe that, though we do have equality in some respects as well.

It is perfectly proper for the original poster to discuss her concerns, that arise from conversations she has had with this person, with the parish priest of the person concerned; I would have welcomed such insight. But it is not proper for such a person to insert themselves into a situation, or in any way to assume a prerogative, that is not proper to them.

Maybe I should explain a bit what I believe is appropriate. The main issue here is the decision to continue doing things (which the Church regards as sinful) but not to let the Church know. The candidate actually knows they are wrong, or at least that the Church Teaches so. But the candidate feels that she can confide this deception with the OP. What I would say, is that it is wrong to approach the Sacrament of Baptism while being deceitful with the Church. I would advise her to not lie to the Church. What I would do next would depend on the response of the friend. If she agreed that it is wrong to deceive and would talk about these things with the director or pastor, I would be comforted and not necessarily pursue. If she opposed my admonishment, I would not hesitate inform the director or pastor what was going on.

Given that the original poster is incorrect in conclusions she draws about validity, she does well to be concerned about her ability to speak to the issues or the situation because, in fact, she can say things that are utterly incorrect. That is, of course, above and beyond the concern arising naturally that her effort may, and likely would, end the friendship.

Given that the OP actually asked questions and advice before jumping into something she was uncertain about shows a good attitude and wise approach. If the friendship falls apart because she advised her friend not to lie to the Church, then it is not a good friend to keep.

I have had occasion myself to admonish – not to say rebuke – parishioners, and even junior clergy, about the need to tread very cautiously when one begins to stray into an areas that regards the parish priest’s proper cura animarum as well as jurisdiction…and above all in situations where one is out of one’s depth. Often such people do much more harm than they do any good.

And I have witnessed Catholics turning a blind eye to wrong behavior. Neither is good. Fraternal Correction appropriate to the situation, done out of love for God and brotherhood is one of the 7 spiritual works of mercy. I hope I am always afforded admonish mentioned when I am in need, and not just from my pastor.

 

[Reuben_J]

Maybe I should explain a bit what I believe is appropriate. The main issue here is the decision to continue doing things (which the Church regards as sinful) but not to let the Church know. The candidate actually knows they are wrong, or at least that the Church Teaches so. But the candidate feels that she can confide this deception with the OP. What I would say, is that it is wrong to approach the Sacrament of Baptism while being deceitful with the Church. I would advise her to not lie to the Church. What I would do next would depend on the response of the friend. If she agreed that it is wrong to deceive and would talk about these things with the director or pastor, I would be comforted and not necessarily pursue. If she opposed my admonishment, I would not hesitate inform the director or pastor what was going on.

Given that the OP actually asked questions and advice before jumping into something she was uncertain about shows a good attitude and wise approach. If the friendship falls apart because she advised her friend not to lie to the Church, then it is not a good friend to keep.

As I have previously noted, this is perfectly reasonable. The OP did the right thing and a good advice was given.

I am scratching my head why this has become a contention somehow.

 

[Reuben_J]

Admonition has its proper place. It, however, has to be done guided by virtue and marshaled by prudence. It is never to be done indiscriminately.

A parent has a latitude to admonish his or her child in a way that the child does not regarding the parent.

The question is not simply if a person is in need of admonishment – it is also a case, ecclesiologically, of who properly should admonish…and who should not admonish. In the above example, the parish priest might have occasion to simultaneously admonish the child and the parent as well.

The matter is uniquely his because the parish priest is the only one, beside the bishop himself, who has the cura animarum for the soul being talked about.

The Church is hierarchical…it is not a society of equals.

It is perfectly proper for the original poster to discuss her concerns, that arise from conversations she has had with this person, with the parish priest of the person concerned; I would have welcomed such insight. But it is not proper for such a person to insert themselves into a situation, or in any way to assume a prerogative, that is not proper to them.

Given that the original poster is incorrect in conclusions she draws about validity, she does well to be concerned about her ability to speak to the issues or the situation because, in fact, she can say things that are utterly incorrect. That is, of course, above and beyond the concern arising naturally that her effort may, and likely would, end the friendship.

I have had occasion myself to admonish – not to say rebuke – parishioners, and even junior clergy, about the need to tread very cautiously when one begins to stray into an areas that regards the parish priest’s proper cura animarum as well as jurisdiction…and above all in situations where one is out of one’s depth. Often such people do much more harm than they do any good.

I have to say, my goodness, aren’t we very legalistic here and simply forget about just being good, loving and nice to our fellow Christian.

While the above bolded is true, admonishing does not have to be the exclusive work of priests alone, at least not in today situation, at least not in something that is very obvious which only requires common sense.

Lying or trying to deceive one’s way through Baptism is simply wrong. One does not have to be a priest to know that. Sometimes a person can be open to a friend and thing like this can be talked over. It may not be necessary a formal admonishment. There are many ways to get such message across even by setting an example or in an informal friendly conversation.

When it is done in love, it is likely to be understood and accepted.

And there is no guarantee that a priest can do this kind of thing better. I have heard many personal complaints from parishioners who were very hurt by priests. But sure, laity can work together with priests in matters such as this.

From experience, perhaps we have counseled thousand of people in all these years who came for retreats, teachings and ministries; and these might include admonishing, telling them the right thing to do in their situation before sending them to priests for Confession, if necessary.

That is how the Church grows. All the faithful have to participate and fulfill their roles when called upon and if they have the talent and experience, then it does not matter whether they are laity or clergy. A married man and a father would probably be able to give good (name removed by moderator)ut about being a father whereby a priest would be better in giving a spiritual aspect of it. There is a place for everybody in the Church today.