Installation Mass for a Woman

[THurifer2]

LOOK what happened in my diocese. We just got a new bishop and we thought things like this were going to end.

 

[Paten]

LOOK what happened in my diocese. We just got a new bishop and we thought things like this were going to end.

About how many priestly vocations have come out of your parish in the last decade? How many of these vocations have realized ordination? It would be interesting to know that.

Anointing any layperson as a “parish life administrator” is a product of extremely poor judgment in my opinion. While it’s clearly a made-up title for use within your diocese, it sends a horrible message.

I’m in California and this wouldn’t play in my parish and in most parts of the diocese. People (including myself) would just leave. It wouldn’t work where you are either if the laity ultimately voted with their legs and their checkbooks…

 

[THurifer2]

The smoke had infilrtrated my diocese long ago…By the way this isn’t my parish but it is in my diocese. I was told by many that our New Bishop was going to be a good one…I still believe them but…He was sent he by B16.

Its not getting better in my diocese…things are begining to free-fall.

 

[YADA]

What was it that happened that your Bishop should have stopped or changed …

From your post I thought I was going to see a news article about the ordination of a ‘woman’ priest … there have been many this past year around the country …

What I saw a an article about parishes that will have a lay administrator running the day to day operations with the support of a validly ordained priest for all the ‘sacramental’ needs …

Now I know that it is not optimal to have a ‘priestless’ parish … We need to pray for more vocations and also speak with our sons [grandsons, nephews, uncles] about answering God’s call … have you done that? I have … I also support tuition/scholarships for semenarians and a person who came through my RCIA went on to seminary and ordination …

It is also not optimal to have parishes close … and they close for three reasons, not enough priests to staff al of them, poor financial support and too many parishes within a small geographic area serving too few regular mass attendees …

That your Bishop is willing to attempt to keep the parishes open using a combination of educated lay persons working with clergy does not seem to be a “horrible” abuse …

I am sure that he is wrestling with the needs and desires of his priests and the christians who want to attend their local parish … it cannot be an easy task …

I have read the articles and spoke with parishioners who have had their local parishes closed and combined … the hurt, anger, tears of frustration …

I have heard priests whose parishioners fail to support their parish with their regular attendance, refusal to volunteer time, attend functions or provide financial support … the frustrations can be vexing…

You should pray for your Bishop and offer support, time and financial …

And go recruit a future priest today Promise a $500 per year scholarship from your personal funds … and then follow through! Attend a seminary fund raiser …

 

[THurifer2]

What was it that happened that your Bishop should have stopped or changed …

From your post I thought I was going to see a news article about the ordination of a ‘woman’ priest … there have been many this past year around the country …

What I saw a an article about parishes that will have a lay administrator running the day to day operations with the support of a validly ordained priest for all the ‘sacramental’ needs …

Now I know that it is not optimal to have a ‘priestless’ parish … We need to pray for more vocations and also speak with our sons [grandsons, nephews, uncles] about answering God’s call … have you done that? I have … I also support tuition/scholarships for semenarians and a person who came through my RCIA went on to seminary and ordination …

It is also not optimal to have parishes close … and they close for three reasons, not enough priests to staff al of them, poor financial support and too many parishes within a small geographic area serving too few regular mass attendees …

That your Bishop is willing to attempt to keep the parishes open using a combination of educated lay persons working with clergy does not seem to be a “horrible” abuse …

I am sure that he is wrestling with the needs and desires of his priests and the christians who want to attend their local parish … it cannot be an easy task …

I have read the articles and spoke with parishioners who have had their local parishes closed and combined … the hurt, anger, tears of frustration …

I have heard priests whose parishioners fail to support their parish with their regular attendance, refusal to volunteer time, attend functions or provide financial support … the frustrations can be vexing…

You should pray for your Bishop and offer support, time and financial …

And go recruit a future priest today Promise a $500 per year scholarship from your personal funds … and then follow through! Attend a seminary fund raiser …

I believe having an installation Mass and dressing her up in an Alb sends a terribly wrong message. The education she recieved for this job was done via a seminar format. The Minsitry Formation Program for ths diocese is an absolute joke. I have first hand knowledge of it. I know the agenda behind the photo because I know the people behind it. Praying for vocations in my diocese is important. but the agenda behind this installation Mass plays a signifant part of the exacerbated shortage in my diocese.

Giving money to vocations is a great Idea. We just might do that …but for now my wife and I are seriously considering moving to Lincoln, NE. I just want to raise my kids in a good Catholic enviornment.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

The alb is the garment of all the baptized, including the new granny, I mean lay administrator. The musicians in the photo appear to be wearing albs, as well. The bishop or priestly person has on proper vestments, but she doesn’t.

 

[YADA]

Yes, well I do not know about the alb nor about the ministry formation process in your diocese …

I have a deacon friend in California who is the pastoral adminstrator of a parish … a priest comes to provide the sacraments [Mass, Confessions, Sacrament of the Sick] but the day to dy operations falls to the administrator …

In my diocese we have a few parishes operated by lay persons …

We too have a certificate program to provide education to catechists … I suppose it has its pluses and minuses …

Most parish staff that is hired today all have masters degrees, not certificates …

My diocese supports a masters in pastoral ministry [all deacon candidates go through this program] program with formation in addition to the advanced college courses in liturgy, scripture, church documents, social teaching, counciling, and morality, etc… men and women enroll in this program … * small surveying and engineering firm to ern my keep ]

My husband and I have been supporting tuition fundraisers for our local seminary directly through donations, attendance each year at a ‘seminarians dinner’ [which also goes to scholarships - a wonder social eveing where you get to vist with the seminarians before dinner and have two seminarians at your table - we see great rpomise in these future priests!] and through my husband’s KOC council [they provide scholarships for two seminarians each year].

And as I said, one of our RCIA ‘graduates’ went into the seminary and was ordained three years ago [a wonderful godly man - who I hope God remembers I had a hand in helping to discern his calling ]…

Plus I know about 10 recently [over the last 4 years] ordained deacons …*

 

[Cathryn]

The alb is the garment of all the baptized, including the new granny, I mean lay administrator. The musicians in the photo appear to be wearing albs, as well. The bishop or priestly person has on proper vestments, but she doesn’t.

The alb then should be worn by all the laity. I think what you think are musicians are the altar boys in the backround.

 

[Paten]

THurifer2 is correct.

The “installation Mass” is HIGHLY inflammatory no matter what the good intentions were. That one photograph sends a shock wave right long with her sickening title. If my parish has to be managed by a layperson, that would be tough enough. But that article inferred a great deal more.

I also couldn’t get something else out of my mind while reading that article. The greatest number of Episcopalian “seminarians” are retired females supported by their husbands…

 

[cspb56]

While there is nothing wrong with a commissioning of a person/s to a particular ministry/parish position at mass. The alb, as previously stated is a liturgical vestment for the baptized. Since she was not performing a liturgical ministry (lector, cantor etc.)she should NOT have worn an alb.

 

[true_believer]

Honestly, I don’t see what all of your fuss is about. I thought that the article would be about a woman being “ordained” as a priest. But it wasn’t. It was merely about her being invested as the parish life administrator.

Seriously, I think you need to get over this, because it obviously doesn’t go against church teaching. And as others have suggested, if you don’t like the idea of having lay people as parish life administrators, then start doing more to promote vocations to the priesthood.

Not to mention that hiring lay parish life administrators is far better than having to close down parishes.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

The smoke had infilrtrated my diocese long ago…By the way this isn’t my parish but it is in my diocese. I was told by many that our New Bishop was going to be a good one…I still believe them but…He was sent he by B16.

Its not getting better in my diocese…things are begining to free-fall.

Your new bishop IS good. I have worked with him personally in the past.

None of this, as already mentioned, goes against church teaching.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

The alb then should be worn by all the laity. I think what you think are musicians are the altar boys in the backround.

I personally think that, instead of trying to get everybody to show up in the “uniform of the day” and not dress provacatively, we should all wear albs to Mass!

Honestly, I don’t see what all of your fuss is about. I thought that the article would be about a woman being “ordained” as a priest. But it wasn’t. It was merely about her being invested as the parish life administrator.

Seriously, I think you need to get over this, because it obviously doesn’t go against church teaching. And as others have suggested, if you don’t like the idea of having lay people as parish life administrators, then start doing more to promote vocations to the priesthood.

Not to mention that hiring lay parish life administrators is far better than having to close down parishes.

 

[THurifer2]

Honestly, I don’t see what all of your fuss is about. I thought that the article would be about a woman being “ordained” as a priest. .

Is it because the words Installations Mass were used?

Thats what the diocese called it. And FYI it has caused a HUGE fuss in my diocese…In fact It has driven a wedge right down between us traditionallists and the modernists.

 

[benedictgal]

Your new bishop IS good. I have worked with him personally in the past.

None of this, as already mentioned, goes against church teaching.

Please be so kind as to show us how this “installation Mass” conforms to Church teaching. Redemptionis Sacramentum notes the following:

[45.] To be avoided is the danger of obscuring the complementary relationship between the action of clerics and that of laypersons, in such a way that the ministry of laypersons undergoes what might be called a certain “clericalization”, while the sacred ministers inappropriately assume those things that are proper to the life and activity of the lay faithful.116

Now, I can understand an installation Mass for a new pastor, as he is formally installed as such for his new parish. This most definitely includes concelebrating this Mass with the local Ordinary. However, this woman has no clerical duties and this type of Mass, including having her vested in an alb, gives some very bad signals that seemed to have already caused a polarizing effect in Thurifer’s diocese.

Furthermore, the alb is a liturgical garment, first and foremost. Inasmuch as it may symbolize someone’s baptismal dignity, it is still primarily used for the liturgy. I think that the bishop has some explaining to do on that one, particularly if Benedict finds out.

 

[Paten]

Is it because the words Installations Mass were used?

Thats what the diocese called it. And FYI it has caused a HUGE fuss in my diocese…In fact It has driven a wedge right down between us traditionallists and the modernists.

So you know, “modernism” has a very specific meaning in the Church. A meaning unknown to many who callously and inaccurately use the slur “modernist.” If you want any credibility, you need to stop that. While you’re at it, you need to stop using the name “traditionalist.” We’re all Catholic Christians, right?

 

[benedictgal]

So you know, “modernism” has a very specific meaning in the Church. A meaning unknown to many who callously and inaccurately use the slur “modernist.” If you want any credibility, you need to stop that. While you’re at it, you need to stop using the name “traditionalist.” We’re all Catholic Christians, right?

Remember, though, that Pope St. Pius X condemened the heresy of modernism. In fact, priests were required to take an oath against modernism.

The Church is not completely against the modernities of technology and other positive aspects. However, there are things that are immutable.

Now, even though we are all Catholic Christians, there are those who think that they can pick and choose what aspects of the faith they are to believe. There are others who take the fullness of the Truth in its totality and hold fast to the Church’s Traditions. There are still others who haven’t quite figured out which way to go.

 

[Paten]

Remember, though, that Pope St. Pius X condemened the heresy of modernism. In fact, priests were required to take an oath against modernism.

The Church is not completely against the modernities of technology and other positive aspects. However, there are things that are immutable.

Now, even though we are all Catholic Christians, there are those who think that they can pick and choose what aspects of the faith they are to believe. There are others who take the fullness of the Truth in its totality and hold fast to the Church’s Traditions. There are still others who haven’t quite figured out which way to go.

Pardon me? What was the reason for your comment?

First, someone who feels they can pick and choose is not a “modernist” – they are relativists.

Most people who use the slur “modernist” have no idea what it means within the Church. Many would label (for example) those who embrace the Pauline Mass as “modernists” which is just wrong.

It’s also ridiculous and false to suggest self-described “traditional” Catholics are more in keeping with the fullness of the faith. All Catholics are required to accept all of Sacred Tradition.

When it comes to relativism, the absolute worst examples I see are those that label themselves as “traditional” or “conservative” Catholics. They always seem to know what’s best – even if it contravenes what the Church directs.

 

[scylla]

This is quite wrong as it does insult the clergy and the dignity of the woman being put in this position.

No woman should need to “act” like a Priest as it insults her as a woman, makes the Priesthood trivial as if anyone can be a Priestlike with the proper clothing, and ultimately it insults Christ by blurring the line between the clergy and the laity.

No installation Mass should have ever been done, it is a scandal to the faithful. Not only that it is a denial of our Holy Faith as our faith is centered on Jesus and expressed in our Worship of Him in the Mass. To blur the line of the clergy and the laity is to deny the importance of His Priesthood.

Unfortunately some people in the Catholic Church don’t like humility and prefer to deny the importance of the Priesthood. So they discourage vocations and seek ways to replace priests with imitations.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[THurifer2]

Your new bishop IS good. I have worked with him personally in the past.

None of this, as already mentioned, goes against church teaching.

Paix based on what you know about me from these forums you can correctly conclude that your praise of him is unsettling to me…Lincoln here we come.