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THurifer2
Guest
SO YOU KNOW I have read PASCENDI DOMINICI GREGIS and Know what modernism is. You don’t know the people in my diocese. I do personally and I am dead on with my description calling them modernists.
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Joannm
Guest
Would the term “commissioned” be less offensive? I agree she should not have been in an alb since that is a liturgical garment, but the fact is that she was being formally installed as the Pastoral Life Coordinator. My concern is that she does not have any higher theological training other than a lay formation program, which, even in my diocese, is minimal theology and more spirituality. Yet it seems as if her responsibilities would be more running the day to day business end of the parish.
Hopefully she will not be acting as pastor. There are national guidelines, or though not official, for what a pastoral life coordinator needs by way of credentials. In my diocese, to be a Pastoral Associate requires an MA in theology or pastoral studies, and they do not replace a pastor, only assist him. I would think a pastoral life coordinator would at least need a degree in theology.
I do not see anything wrong with any lay person running the day to day administration of a parish if need be, but I certainly would not want an unqualified person responsible for the spiritual life of that parish.
Hopefully she will not be acting as pastor. There are national guidelines, or though not official, for what a pastoral life coordinator needs by way of credentials. In my diocese, to be a Pastoral Associate requires an MA in theology or pastoral studies, and they do not replace a pastor, only assist him. I would think a pastoral life coordinator would at least need a degree in theology.
I do not see anything wrong with any lay person running the day to day administration of a parish if need be, but I certainly would not want an unqualified person responsible for the spiritual life of that parish.
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THurifer2
Guest
I let you answer the question. I will point out that the division in our Church between the groups (Traditionalists vs. Liberals etc.) at times seems to be worse that the division between protestants and Catholics.While you’re at it, you need to stop using the name “traditionalist.” We’re all Catholic Christians, right?
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THurifer2
Guest
SHe shouldn’t have been wearing an Alb and there shouldn’t have been an installation Mass. Based on the description of her training Pastoral LIfe Administrator has no functions litrugically.
By the way I have NO problem with this woman being a PLA.
I KNOW the director of the ministry formation program. She has an agenda regarding women in the church. It would not surprise me if I saw her on a boat in some river getting “ordained” someday.
By the way I have NO problem with this woman being a PLA.
I KNOW the director of the ministry formation program. She has an agenda regarding women in the church. It would not surprise me if I saw her on a boat in some river getting “ordained” someday.
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THurifer2
Guest
Just to answer your question. The current parish I have has a 100 year history…in those 100 years…there has been 1 0r 2 priestly vocations…in the last 50 years there has be ZEROAbout how many priestly vocations have come out of your parish in the last decade? …
My hometown parish in its entire history has had ZERO vocations come from it.
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Paten
Guest
Then don’t misuse it as a slur.SO YOU KNOW I have read PASCENDI DOMINICI GREGIS **and Know what modernism is. **You don’t know the people in my diocese. I do personally and I am dead on with my description calling them modernists.
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Paten
Guest
the title of “PLA” is offensive by itself.SHe shouldn’t have been wearing an Alb and there shouldn’t have been an installation Mass. Based on the description of her training Pastoral LIfe Administrator has no functions litrugically.
By the way I have NO problem with this woman being a PLA.
I KNOW the director of the ministry formation program. She has an agenda regarding women in the church. It would not surprise me if I saw her on a boat in some river getting “ordained” someday.
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Paten
Guest
No wonder you have PLAs.Just to answer your question. The current parish I have has a 100 year history…in those 100 years…there has been 1 0r 2 priestly vocations…in the last 50 years there has be ZERO
My hometown parish in its entire history has had ZERO vocations come from it.
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Ron_Conte
Guest
The book of Numbers speaks to this problem of the blurring of roles between ordained and non-ordained persons, between men and women. In it, Aaron and Miriam claim that they should have the same role as Moses. But God rebukes them for this disorder.
[Numbers 12]
{12:1} And Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses, because of his wife, an Ethiopian,
{12:2} and they said: “Has the Lord spoken only through Moses? Has he not also spoken similarly to us?” And when the Lord had heard this,
{12:3} (for Moses was a man exceedingly meek, beyond all the men who were living upon the earth)
{12:4} immediately he spoke to him, and to Aaron and Miriam, “Go out, you three only, to the tabernacle of the covenant.” And when they had gone out,
{12:5} the Lord descended in a column of cloud, and he stood at the entrance of the tabernacle, calling to Aaron and Miriam. And when they had advanced,
{12:6} he said to them: “Listen to my words. If there will be among you a prophet of the Lord, I will appear to him in a vision, or I will speak to him through a dream.
{12:7} But it is not so with my servant Moses, who is the most faithful in all my house.
{12:8} For I speak with him mouth to mouth, and plainly. And not through enigmas and figures does he perceive the Lord. Therefore, why were you not afraid to disparage my servant Moses?”
{12:9} And being angry against them, he went away.
{12:10} Likewise, the cloud which was over the tabernacle withdrew. And behold, Miriam appeared to be white with a leprosy, like snow. And when Aaron had looked upon her, and he had seen the spreading of the leprosy,
{12:11} he said to Moses: “I beg you, my lord, not to impose upon us this sin, which we have committed foolishly.
{12:12} Do not let this one be like one who is dead, or like an abortion that has been cast from the womb of her mother. Behold, half of her flesh is already consumed by leprosy.”
{12:13} And Moses cried out to the Lord, saying, “O God, I beg you: heal her.”
{12:14} And the Lord answered him: “If her father had spit on her face, should she not have been filled with shame for at least seven days? Let her be separated, outside the camp, for seven days, and after that, she will be called back.”
{12:15} And so Miriam was excluded from the camp for seven days. And the people did not move from that place, until Miriam was called back.
[Numbers 12]
{12:1} And Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses, because of his wife, an Ethiopian,
{12:2} and they said: “Has the Lord spoken only through Moses? Has he not also spoken similarly to us?” And when the Lord had heard this,
{12:3} (for Moses was a man exceedingly meek, beyond all the men who were living upon the earth)
{12:4} immediately he spoke to him, and to Aaron and Miriam, “Go out, you three only, to the tabernacle of the covenant.” And when they had gone out,
{12:5} the Lord descended in a column of cloud, and he stood at the entrance of the tabernacle, calling to Aaron and Miriam. And when they had advanced,
{12:6} he said to them: “Listen to my words. If there will be among you a prophet of the Lord, I will appear to him in a vision, or I will speak to him through a dream.
{12:7} But it is not so with my servant Moses, who is the most faithful in all my house.
{12:8} For I speak with him mouth to mouth, and plainly. And not through enigmas and figures does he perceive the Lord. Therefore, why were you not afraid to disparage my servant Moses?”
{12:9} And being angry against them, he went away.
{12:10} Likewise, the cloud which was over the tabernacle withdrew. And behold, Miriam appeared to be white with a leprosy, like snow. And when Aaron had looked upon her, and he had seen the spreading of the leprosy,
{12:11} he said to Moses: “I beg you, my lord, not to impose upon us this sin, which we have committed foolishly.
{12:12} Do not let this one be like one who is dead, or like an abortion that has been cast from the womb of her mother. Behold, half of her flesh is already consumed by leprosy.”
{12:13} And Moses cried out to the Lord, saying, “O God, I beg you: heal her.”
{12:14} And the Lord answered him: “If her father had spit on her face, should she not have been filled with shame for at least seven days? Let her be separated, outside the camp, for seven days, and after that, she will be called back.”
{12:15} And so Miriam was excluded from the camp for seven days. And the people did not move from that place, until Miriam was called back.
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PaixGioiaAmor
Guest
The hilarious part about this is that if you actually came to mass at my parish you’d probably love it and want to make it your home parish - assuming that you can tolerate ANY form of the “new mass”.Paix based on what you know about me from these forums you can correctly conclude that your praise of him is unsettling to me…Lincoln here we come.
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OutinChgoburbs
Guest
Are yout trying for sola scriptura? The Catholic Church is not sola scriptura.The book of Numbers speaks to this problem of the blurring of roles between ordained and non-ordained persons, between men and women. In it, Aaron and Miriam claim that they should have the same role as Moses. But God rebukes them for this disorder…
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Paten
Guest
Nor do Catholics believe in private revelation when it comes to interpreting Scripture…Are yout trying for sola scriptura? The Catholic Church is not sola scriptura.
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palmas85
Guest
I hope you are not saying that just because someone claims to be Catholic means that they accept all sacred tradition. We all know thats not true.Pardon me? What was the reason for your comment?
First, someone who feels they can pick and choose is not a “modernist” – they are relativists.
Most people who use the slur “modernist” have no idea what it means within the Church. Many would label (for example) those who embrace the Pauline Mass as “modernists” which is just wrong.
It’s also ridiculous and false to suggest self-described “traditional” Catholics are more in keeping with the fullness of the faith. ** All Catholics are required to accept all of Sacred Tradition.**
When it comes to relativism, the absolute worst examples I see are those that label themselves as “traditional” or “conservative” Catholics. They always seem to know what’s best – even if it contravenes what the Church directs.
As far as the installation Mass goes, well it is a Mass to mark the beginning of service to the Church so I suppose it could be acceptable, ** BUT **
The wearing of the alb in this context seems to indicate some liturgical function beyond that as a mere lay administrator. I think it sends the wrong signal and was a bad move overall.
Your last statement intrigues me. Could you give some examples please?
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
Well, get use to it folks! With the shortage of priest, for whatever the reason, we’re going to see more and more lay people administering parishes and presiding over communion services.
Jim
Jim
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Paten
Guest
No Catholic may reject any part of the Church’s dogmatic deposit of faith…I hope you are not saying that just because someone claims to be Catholic means that they accept all sacred tradition. We all know thats not true.
As far as the installation Mass goes, well it is a Mass to mark the beginning of service to the Church so I suppose it could be acceptable, ** BUT **
The wearing of the alb in this context seems to indicate some liturgical function beyond that as a mere lay administrator. I think it sends the wrong signal and was a bad move overall.
Your last statement intrigues me. Could you give some examples please?
“When it comes to relativism, the absolute worst examples I see are those that label themselves as “traditional” or “conservative” Catholics. They always seem to know what’s best – even if it contravenes what the Church directs.”
In my experience most “cafeteria Catholics” are those who who reject things for what they personally feel is “better.” The one example I used are those who kneel when they should be standing per the Church.
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Paten
Guest
Bull.Well, get use to it folks! With the shortage of priest, for whatever the reason,** we’re going to see more and more lay people administering parishes** and presiding over communion services.
Jim
Vocations are recovering quite nicely in the USA…
That’s one lie you don’t hear too much anymore – the “crisis of vocations.”
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Joannm
Guest
Vocations might be recovering but not at the rate needed to meet the growing needs of the Catholic population. Parishes here in the Northeast used to have 5 priests living in a rectory. Now the norm is two or less, and those in these parishes are overworked. While we have 6 being ordained this year we also have about 15 who are retiring, a good number of them because of illness that keeps them from public ministry.Bull.
Vocations are recovering quite nicely in the USA…
That’s one lie you don’t hear too much anymore – the “crisis of vocations.”
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PaixGioiaAmor
Guest
Has your diocese broken down the numbers?Bull.
Vocations are recovering quite nicely in the USA…
That’s one lie you don’t hear too much anymore – the “crisis of vocations.”
Our has - and with the number of priests scheduled to retire within the next 10 years vs. the number of seminarians scheduled to be ordained within the next 10 years - there IS a crisis.
Maybe your diocese is one of the few with so many priests that every parish, no matter its size still has a pastor and several associates.
Not so in most places.
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THurifer2
Guest
Which is why my wife and I are seriously considering moving to Lincoln. We have freinds who moved here from there and they have already sold their house to move back. In all likelyhood we will be moving.Not so in most places.
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ALLGIRLS
Guest
I agree that there is nothing wrong per se in having a woman in that position-pastoral lay administrator?-other than the fact that it’s tragic that it’s no longer possible for every parish to have at least one full time priest. However, it does appear that this parish is trying to “push the envelope” as far as they can to make this woman look like a quasi priest(ess). An “installation mass” was not necessary or appropriate, nor was her wearing an alb. I’m willing to bet that she gets to lead Communion services (and preach) whenever there is no priest available to celebrate mass, while wearing her alb.
At my parish, at the beginning of the school year, all the catechists stand up at the end of mass (wearing their own clothes) and receive a blessing from the priest to start the year. That would have been all that was necessary and appropriate w/ this woman, as well, if she was a truly humble servant, (as we are all called to be in our various vocations and states in life) just doing what was necessary to keep a parish open and running without a priest. JMO, obviously, but that picture is really worth a thousand words.
In Christ,
Ellen
At my parish, at the beginning of the school year, all the catechists stand up at the end of mass (wearing their own clothes) and receive a blessing from the priest to start the year. That would have been all that was necessary and appropriate w/ this woman, as well, if she was a truly humble servant, (as we are all called to be in our various vocations and states in life) just doing what was necessary to keep a parish open and running without a priest. JMO, obviously, but that picture is really worth a thousand words.
In Christ,
Ellen
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