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Laetus
Guest
If you make the claim a “straw-subdeacon” must be instituted then the onus is on you. I cannot prove what does not exist.
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superamazingman
Guest
Actually, the onus is on you, since you are the one claiming a normal layman can fill the role of a cleric. However, I’ll look for the source I know exists. I’ll post it when I find it. Exactly my point: there is no permission for a layman to take the role of subdeacon.
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superamazingman
Guest
Sorry I don’t have a copy of the letter itself, but you can look into it more with the letter’s identification.
7 June 1993, Prot. 24/92
This letter from Rome states that subdeacons (straw or otherwise), must be an instituted acolytes or higher rank.
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Digitonomy
Guest
I had never heard this before. Do you have a source?
So only the subdiaconate remains suppressed for these groups?
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YoungTradCath
Guest
Yes, they do.
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Laetus
Guest
No. I am claiming it doesn’t require one to be instituted. The onus is on you…
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wasserfall
Guest
They ordain to the subdiaconate also.
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superamazingman
Guest
I posted the serial number of the letter already.
But the point is, with your attitude, can a lay man substitute for the deacon as well if you can’t find a citation against it? If you’re claiming that a lay man can fill the role of a cleric, you need to prove yourself.
K
Kevin812
Guest
- go back and read the post I quoted.
- unless you are my cat, you presume too much of what my experiences may be.
- “blessed are the flexible, for they will not be bent out of shape.”
- the Catholic Church has a hierarchy and a protocol of how things are to be handled in the liturgy.
- I am tired of hearing an ever increasingly whiny laity that presumes to dictate to the Church, while at the same time overstepping or ignoring their proper roles.
K
Kenny_Kamel
Guest
I commented on this recently in another thread as my best friend is an Acolyte: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=9277742#post9277742
From my limited understanding Acolytes are able to serve certain purposes when called upon. An acolyte has the duty to lector at Mass, but this is rarely enforced and at the discrection of the primarily celebrant of said Mass. Also an Acolyte can perform the duties of a Deacon or sacristan during Mass. I may have to bring him to CAF to answer questions like this!
From my limited understanding Acolytes are able to serve certain purposes when called upon. An acolyte has the duty to lector at Mass, but this is rarely enforced and at the discrection of the primarily celebrant of said Mass. Also an Acolyte can perform the duties of a Deacon or sacristan during Mass. I may have to bring him to CAF to answer questions like this!
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Diaconia
Guest
Your understanding is incorrect. An acolyte cannot perform duties of a deacon.I commented on this recently in another thread as my best friend is an Acolyte: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=9277742#post9277742
From my limited understanding Acolytes are able to serve certain purposes when called upon. An acolyte has the duty to lector at Mass, but this is rarely enforced and at the discrection of the primarily celebrant of said Mass. Also an Acolyte can perform the duties of a Deacon or sacristan during Mass. I may have to bring him to CAF to answer questions like this!
Also, someone mentioned above that some deacons in formation receive the ministries (that’s what they are now, rather than minor orders) of acolyte (and lector) in formation. That is not correct either, ALL candidates for holy orders MUST receive the ministries of lector and acolyte, and practice each for some time before being ordained a deacon. cf. canon 1035.
Only men can receive the ministries of acolyte and reader, by the way. That is why some bishops have instituted acolytes in their dioceses (including Lincoln, NE). This diminishes the need for EMsHC.
God bless,
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eamonnroma
Guest
As an instituted acolyte I have read this thread with great interest.
We were for many years used to the priest ‘doing’ everything, although lturgically this is not ideal.
There are ordinary ministers of sacraments and then ‘extraordinary’ ministers. The bishop, priest and deacons are ordinary ministers of baptism although in certain circumstances any person can become an extraordinary minister, such as danger of death.
When there is an ordinary minister present he should perform his ministry. When a deacon is present he should proclaim the gospel, not the priest.
The Church in its wisdom has decided that there should be the ministry of acolyte (and lector) when an acolyte is present he should exercise his ministry.
An instituted acolyte is much more than a glorified altar server. He has to study theology and has a much wider role than an altar server or an EMHC.
I think it is wonderful that the church allows people to participate and to help give communion when needed but we should always follow the Church guidelines in this.
As for one of the comments I read above that it is not a good idea to have instituted acolytes as this excludes women. Well if that is so we should not have priests as this too excludes women.
We were for many years used to the priest ‘doing’ everything, although lturgically this is not ideal.
There are ordinary ministers of sacraments and then ‘extraordinary’ ministers. The bishop, priest and deacons are ordinary ministers of baptism although in certain circumstances any person can become an extraordinary minister, such as danger of death.
When there is an ordinary minister present he should perform his ministry. When a deacon is present he should proclaim the gospel, not the priest.
The Church in its wisdom has decided that there should be the ministry of acolyte (and lector) when an acolyte is present he should exercise his ministry.
An instituted acolyte is much more than a glorified altar server. He has to study theology and has a much wider role than an altar server or an EMHC.
I think it is wonderful that the church allows people to participate and to help give communion when needed but we should always follow the Church guidelines in this.
As for one of the comments I read above that it is not a good idea to have instituted acolytes as this excludes women. Well if that is so we should not have priests as this too excludes women.
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Midtown_Mike
Guest
I am curious as to the menaing of “installed”. Who installs them? The pastor? priest? bishop?
I am called an acolyte in my parish. I dress in cassock & surplus, and I am on the altar during services. I assist the sacristan before Mass, preparing the gifts to be offered, etc. I process in and I set up the altar at the appropriate time if there is no deacon present.
I do not read, as there are lectors scheduled for each mass (I do not believe they are installed lectors, so I guess they are “readers” and not lectors). I do prepare incense if the priests requests it’s use before mass. I do not incense the priest or the congregation if there is no deacon present.
I have incensed the body and blood as it is raised during consecration while kneeling in front of the altar. This is with a deacon present.
I also purify the vessels after Mass and assist in preparing for the next Mass. (We have 5 Masses in Church each Sunday, 2 Masses in the parish hall on Sunday, as well as 2 vigil Masses on Saturday evening).
I have assisted the bishop at Confirmation, and the Pastor at First Communions.
Having read the guidelines issued by the diocese of Galveston, linked to by the OP, it is pretty much in line with what I do.
Mike
I am called an acolyte in my parish. I dress in cassock & surplus, and I am on the altar during services. I assist the sacristan before Mass, preparing the gifts to be offered, etc. I process in and I set up the altar at the appropriate time if there is no deacon present.
I do not read, as there are lectors scheduled for each mass (I do not believe they are installed lectors, so I guess they are “readers” and not lectors). I do prepare incense if the priests requests it’s use before mass. I do not incense the priest or the congregation if there is no deacon present.
I have incensed the body and blood as it is raised during consecration while kneeling in front of the altar. This is with a deacon present.
I also purify the vessels after Mass and assist in preparing for the next Mass. (We have 5 Masses in Church each Sunday, 2 Masses in the parish hall on Sunday, as well as 2 vigil Masses on Saturday evening).
I have assisted the bishop at Confirmation, and the Pastor at First Communions.
Having read the guidelines issued by the diocese of Galveston, linked to by the OP, it is pretty much in line with what I do.
Mike
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Diaconia
Guest
An instituted (installed) lector or acolyte receives that permanent ministry from the bishop. This means that once received, you can serve in the office the balance of your life. Even if you were to move to another diocese you could inform the new bishop of your status.
Sometimes people get confused because we also, in a more generic way, sometimes refer to altar servers as “acolytes,” but an instituted acolyte is always an adult man, and is usually on his way to holy orders as a deacon or priest.
God bless,
P
Phemie
Guest
The fact that you have to ask the question means that you are not an instituted acolyte.
Men who are studying to become Permanent Deacons or Priests are institituted to the ministries of Lector and Acolyte before they are ordained Deacons. But the ministries of Instituted Lector and Acolyte are also open to men who don’t wish to be ordained and it’s left up to the Conferences of Bishops to decide what the requirements are for their own countries. In North America the number of dioceses that institute lectors and acolytes who are not going to be permanent or transitional deacons are few and far between.
Since you are not an instituted acolyte, the one thing you are doing that you aren’t allowed to do is purifying the sacred vessels – only an instituted acolyte, deacon, priest or bishop may do that. Once they are purified they can be cleaned/washed by anyone.
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malphono
Guest
Well, no, not really. A “straw subdeacon” is so called because he is not ordained (or “instituted”) but is allowed to perform most of the functions of a subdeacon at Solemn Mass on an ad-hoc basis in case of need. This not, BTW, a post-conciliar innovation, and although not often seen, the concept has been around for quite a long time. Over the years, I’ve seen a few “straw subdeacons” in various places, including parish churches. Also in monasteries, where a non-ordained, and sometimes not-yet-tonsured, monk (or novice or even postulant) has been “called into service” for the occasion. I don’t off-hand recall the specifics of what a “straw subdeacon” cannot do, but perhaps **AJV **or japhy can supply some further detail on that.
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superamazingman
Guest
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superamazingman
Guest
This is part of why we need to use correct terms and stop calling altar servers acolytes. This is yet another discussion (or at least post) that would never had been nessicary had we been using correct terms. Not criticizing anyone in particular, since it’s so widespread, but just a general comment.
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