Instead of worrying about holding hands

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georgeaquinas

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Instead of worrying about holding hands maybe we should:
  • thank God that there is a Priest in front of us every Sunday
  • thank God that we live in a country where we are free to worship
  • thank God that the Priest has the courage to dedicate his life to the Church
  • thank God that for all the martyrs that gave their lives so that the Church would survive long enough for us to complain about the people in the next pew holding hands
  • thank God that we can continue to ignore any inconvenient beams that we may have
  • thank God that no one is watching our every move and judging our every word during Mass
Just some thoughts.
 
Why does it have to be one or the other. Can’t we be thankful for all those things and still object to liturgical abuses?
 
Maybe just maybe…if we all really prayed for our beloved Priests and for each other…the abuses would go away and the love we should have for one another would come to pass…
Jesus said, “Love one another as I have loved you”…:love:
 
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georgeaquinas:
Instead of worrying about holding hands maybe we should:
  • thank God that there is a Priest in front of us every Sunday
  • thank God that we live in a country where we are free to worship
  • thank God that the Priest has the courage to dedicate his life to the Church
  • thank God that for all the martyrs that gave their lives so that the Church would survive long enough for us to complain about the people in the next pew holding hands
  • thank God that we can continue to ignore any inconvenient beams that we may have
  • thank God that no one is watching our every move and judging our every word during Mass
Just some thoughts.
And some great thoughts they are, too! In prayer, my hands are folded in front of me…so therefore I cannot hold hands at Mass. God Bless
 
Great post georgeaquinas and I agree totally! If we are putting the
correct emphasis on why we partcipate in the liturgy we’re not going to notice what other people are or are not doing. We are there to worship and give thanks, not evaluate the participation (or lack thereof) of others. In charity, all things. Blatant liturgical abuses should be addressed with whomever is committing them, for the sake of all the faithful, but let’s make sure we take that plank out of our own eye before starting to remove them from others. Said another way, people who go to Mass and come out with a laundry list of what was wrong with the liturgy, are committing a litugical abuse of their own, are they not? And I speak from experience, because I too was a practitioner 😉 .

Peace…
 
I agree with deogratias. Why MUST we be compartmentalized into two separate “camps”? Why must we be “totally silent” in regard to the actions of others lest we be somehow unChrist-like nitpickers and blue meanies?

Christ Himself whipped the money lenders from the temple saying, “My Father’s House is a house of prayer–but you have made it a den of thieves!”

He didn’t just sit back and say, “Oh well, I’ll just focus on myself–after all, I’m sinless–and let things take care of themselves. Even though I’m God, I don’t want to have other people thinking I’m placing myself ABOVE them by pointing out, not just “innocent” practices, but actual ABUSES done to God.”

We aren’t talking of whether the elderly lady in the corner pew is wearing an outfit that’s “too young” for her, or some non spiritual issue.

It is just as bad to be too scrupulous as it is to be too lax.
The problem is, some people think that anything goes, so they don’t want, or listen to, anybody telling anyone else that something is an “abuse.”
And other people think that only their interpretation, in an absolute, rigorous, unyielding and immovable way, is correct,–the descendants of the Pharisees of Jesus’ time, who are concerned with whether the altar cloth is a fraction too high, the exact shade of purple the vestments SHOULD be, or how reverent the “bow” before Communion is of any given parishoner (and NONE will be as reverent as it SHOULD be–i.e., not as reverent as THEIRS is).
 
I feel no bitterness in my heart toward those who hold hands, and cast no aspertions against them. In fact, I couldn’t tell you who does hold hands and who does not.

However, it does distract and distress me that the Sacred Liturgy is being “dumbed down,” with illegal and illicit practices and gestures being interjected, or rubrics being ignored, because these things are important!

Do I worry about the hand holders? Not in the least. But I do worry about the ignorance: Why are we not being formed as Catholics to know and love the Sacred Liturgy, and to participate as the Magisterium instructs?

I desire to be a part of the Universal Roman Catholic Church, not some dissenting, do-it-my-way, sloppy and dare I say perhaps even less sacred form of worship.

As a Roman Catholic, it is my right to attend a Mass correctly, licitly, and validly celebrated.

To live in a country where we can freely worship, and yet allow the Mass to become so widely abused is unconscionable; and we will be held accountable who notice such wrongdoings and disobedient acts taking root in our parishes, and say nothing.

And yes, I have written my pastor about “some” of the abuses I’ve observed. 🙂

Pax Christi. <><
 
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deogratias:
Why does it have to be one or the other. Can’t we be thankful for all those things and still object to liturgical abuses?
I agree. Some tend to get a bit carried away and look for abuses all over the place but it does not mean we shouldn’t identify them when we see them. If we take that to the Nth degree do we just thank God that we have a priest in front of us even if he’s dressed as Elvis?
 
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deogratias:
Why does it have to be one or the other. Can’t we be thankful for all those things and still object to liturgical abuses?
I agree, as well.

Two Sundays ago there was a woman behind me who LOUDLY insisted on changing EVERY prayer and Response to a “gender-neutral” replacement. It was annoying and it knocked many of us out of a proper response as the rest of us within her immediate vicinity began stumbling over words because we *knew * the correct version but we were being *blasted * by the apostate version.

Still, I was thankful that she was behind me and I did not have to graciously decline to accept her hand-holding during the “Our God” (I mean the “Our Father.”). 😃
 
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parishminister:
Said another way, people who go to Mass and come out with a laundry list of what was wrong with the liturgy, are committing a litugical abuse of their own, are they not?
I don’t see how. Please explain.
 
What is the point of our coming together for Sunday Mass? What is the reason that Jesus established the Eucharist in the first place?
Does it lessen the grace you receive because the woman behind you uses inclusive language (btw, that annoys me as well)? Does it decrease the value of your praise and thanksgiving to God because your fellow believers have personal conversations during the Consecration? Is the Mass less valid because a renegade priest adds words to the Eucharistic prayer? Are you any less blessed by the honor and privelege (not right) of being present at this gift to the Church because you don’t agree with the music choices? If all you can do when you come out of Mass is list the “abuses” either real or perceived, that inhibits your ability to be Jesus to the world…and isn’t that the purpose of receiving our Lord; body, blood, soul and divinity, in the most holy Eucharist? I am only trying to say, what I have learned, through personal experience (my questions, are in fact, all real instances of my own legalistic behavior in the past) that you can break the spirit of the law by being too focussed (sp?) on the details. Admonish the sinner? absolutely. Correct sacreligious acts? without question. Identify and help resolve real liturgical abuses? no doubt, we must. It just seems to me that some folks go into Mass with the preconceived notion of finding fault…that creates the laundry list mentality mentioned…and that, in my opinion is abusing the purpose of the Liturgy.

Sorry so long, I really tried to keep it brief.

Peace…
 
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deogratias:
Why does it have to be one or the other. Can’t we be thankful for all those things and still object to liturgical abuses?
This is true, we can and we should.

If one is suggesting, however, that for the assembly to hold one another’s hands during the Our Father is a liturgical abuse, this suggestion should not be left unchallenged.

The opinion that the assembly should not hold one another’s hands during the Our Father is not uncommon. Most explanations I have seen in defense of this opinion are based on the fact that the Missal does not direct the faithful to hold hands at this part of the Mass.

This is absolutely true. However, the missal also does not say not to hold hands at this part of the Mass. Neither does the Missal address the question of whether or not the assembly should assume the orans posture, should fold their hands (with fingers interlaced or straight up), should rest their hands on the pew in front, should hold their hands down at their sides, should hold a missal or hymnal in their hands or assume any other particular posture (except that the assembly should be standing at this time.) Also, I am not aware of any “default” hand posture defined in the instructions of the Mass that the assembly should assume when no other particular hand posture is specified. It is possible that I may be mistaken in this matter, but if so I am sure that someone else here will be able to point out the appropriate references in the Missal.

So if the issue isn’t addressed at all, is it forbidden or permitted? There is an old joke that says under communism everything that isn’t expressly permitted is forbidden, and that under democracy everything that isn’t expressly forbidden is permitted. The Church is not a democracy, but in this matter I think the Church is much closer to a democracy than to communism. There are many areas in which individual Catholics enjoy legitimate freedom of choice, and it seems that instead of being an abuse, the decision of what to do with ones hands during the Our Father may be one such area of legitimate freedom. Those who do not wish to hold hands themselves should not be compelled to do so even if others want to hold their hands, but neither should they be busybodies attempting to abrogate the legitimate freedoms of others who wish to do so among themselves.

The same likewise applies to those Faithful among the assembly who choose to (or not to) fold their hands, assume the orans, rest their hands on the pew in front, hold a missal or hymnal, etc.

Yours in Christ,

Joseph Bilodeau.
 
From the GIRM:

Movements and Posture
  1. The gestures and posture of the priest, the deacon, and the ministers, as well as those of the people, ought to contribute to making the entire celebration resplendent with beauty and noble simplicity, so that the true and full meaning of the different parts of the celebration is evident and that the participation of all is fostered. Therefore, attention should be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.
A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.
 
I don’t worry about holding hands. If you want to, go ahead. If you don’t want to, don’t. You won’t get a dirty look out of me either way.
 
Amen to you who started this post!!! I swear I almost did the same one! I will say this-go ahead and cry about people holding hands, but I better see each and every one of you picketing abortion clinics and writing letters to senators about Gay marriage!! WE GOT BIGGER FISH TO FRY!!!
 
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deogratias:
Why does it have to be one or the other. Can’t we be thankful for all those things and still object to liturgical abuses?
Yeah! I already miss complaining about hand holding. Let’s talk about it again!

Everyone holds hands at my church. Sometimes they grab my hands in the middle of the ‘Our Father’. It causes me to lose my concentration.
 
Note: I had to abridge this quote to get my post under 4000 characters. Please refer to the original.
…rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.
A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.
Except, perhaps, when it fosters and expresses the intention and spiritual attitude of some worshipers to compel other worshipers to conform to the first worshipers’ standards of behavior. But this instruction still doesn’t address the question of whose intention and spiritual attitude is correctly expressed by what posture.

This instruction directs us that a common posture is a sign of unity, with which I fully agree, but the posture to be assumed still isn’t defined except, as noted previously, that the Faithful should stand to pray the Our Father. This instruction could as readily be cited by those who would demand that the entire assembly hold hands or assume the orans as a sign of unity as by those who would prefer not.

It should also be kept in mind , though, that even though unity Liturgical and Sacramental actions are generally desirable, the faithful still do indeed enjoy certain freedoms in these regards, even if they might arrive at decisions regarding these in what might be regarded as private inclinations or arbitrary choices. A good example of this is the various manners in which the the Faithful may receive Communion.

At this time, in churches in the United States at least, communicants may receive either in the hand or on the tongue. At Masses where the Precious Blood is offered, communicants may elect to receive from the Chalice or they may decline and receive only the Host. Communicants may base their decisions on how to receive the Blessed Sacrament on whatever criteria they prefer, personal piety, health concerns, whatever. While it would probably be presumptous to classify thoughtful decisions as arbitrary, it would probably not be inaccurate to describe them as private inclinations. But regardless of how the communicant makes his decision, he still enjoys certain freedoms which should not be withheld in the name of unity. For example, if one Communicant wishes to recieve the Host on his tongue and decline the Chalice at a Mass where every other Communicant received in the hand and received from the Chalice, that one Communicant should not be refused on the grounds that he is being disunitive. What he is doing is exercising a legitimate freedom.

Sadly, though, I have heard of a situation in which something very like this is alleged to have happened (in which a communicant who wished to receive on the tongue was refused and told either to receive in the hand or leave without receiving.) As I was not present personally, I don’t know all the circumstances. I recognize the possibility, though, and if a Catholic was to be refused a right which is as clearly defined as the right to receive the host on the tongue, then it surprises me that much less that Catholics might be discouraged or forbidden from a pious practice whose illicitness has not yet been established.

The question still remains: If the issue is not addressed at all, is it permitted or forbidden? Again, please keep in mind that no hand posture is mentioned in the above instruction. Not hand holding, not hand folding. Not pew-back grasping, not hymnal clasping. Not hands raised in the orans (except for the celebrant), not hands dangling toward the floor. If one of these is verboten, even though none are mentioned in the instruction, does this mean that according to this instruction all are forbidden? If not, why not?
 
Joseph Bilodeau:
But this instruction still doesn’t address the question of whose intention and spiritual attitude is correctly expressed by what posture.
It refers to the Church’s intention and spiritual attitude during the Mass.
This instruction could as readily be cited by those who would demand that the entire assembly hold hands or assume the orans as a sign of unity as by those who would prefer not.
Don’t think so…
A good example of this is the various manners in which the the Faithful may receive Communion.
Yet the options you present are approved in the GIRM. (Hand holding during the Lord’s prayer is not.)
…alleged to have happened (in which a communicant who wished to receive on the tongue was refused and told either to receive in the hand or leave without receiving.)
The Vatican has already condemned this a ‘grave pastoral abuse,’ and wants it reported wherever it occurs. (The Blessed Sacrament can only be withheld if the “communicant” is giving great public scandal ~ such as a pro-abort politician.)
The question still remains: If the issue is not addressed at all, is it permitted or forbidden?
We are instructed not to add anything or delete anything from the GIRM. Adding in a very specific gesture at the same point of the Mass at each and every Mass is, in a sense, “inventing our own rubrics,” which is forbidden.
Not pew-back grasping, not hymnal clasping.
These are not liturgical gestures, and are not imposed upon our neighbor. If someone needs to brace himself on the back of the pew ahead of him, that’s not the same as interjecting a new gesture during a specific point of the Mass. (Unless, of course, he insists on everyone else in his pew grasping the back of the pew at the same prayer at every Mass!)
And holding the hymnal?
Come on, now, you’re grasping at straws to defend hand holding. :whacky:
The hymnals are there for us to pick up and read the lyrics.
Pax Christi. <><
 
As stated in Vatican II’s )Instruction on the Orderly Carrying out of the Constitution on the Liturgy (Liturgicae Instaurationes:

“The effectiveness of liturgy does not lie in experimenting with rites and altering them over and over, nor in a continuous reductionism, but solely in entering more deeply into the word of God and the mystery being celebrated. It is the presence of these two that authenticates the Church’s rites, not what some priest decides, indulging his own preferences.” "Keep in mind, then, that the private recasting of ritual introduced by an individual priest insults the dignity of the believer and lays the way open to individual and idiosyncratic forms in celebrations that are in fact the property of the whole Church."****

The Mass is the property of the whole Church, and the Magisterium guides its prayers, postures, gestures, and even music.

When we are not acting in accord with the Magisterial guidelines for Her Mass, we are, in essence, re-creating “our own” Mass, and in a real sense, vandalizing Her property.

We are not to add to or delete from anything in the GIRM.

Pax Christi. <><
 
Thanks Panis - I was just about to point those who seem to think the abuses don’t matter and that by just ignoring them everything will be okay to Redemptionis Sacramentum where indeed we are to charged to report such abuses to our Bishops and if no response, even to the Holy See.

Also if it is all up to me to just go go to Church and ignore all the abuses, doesn’t that put it back on an “I” and “me” state of mind which is contrary to this “sense of community” the same people seem to be frequently addressing.

Why go to a Catholic Church if it is not practicing Catholic doctrine and liturgy would be more the question I would ask.
 
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