Instead of worrying about holding hands

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

I only have time to address a few of these right now.
Panis Angelicas:

Quote:
This instruction could as readily be cited by those who would demand that the entire assembly hold hands or assume the orans as a sign of unity as by those who would prefer not.
Don’t think so…

It is not necessary for you to think so. I was not expressing an opinion, I was reporting observations I have made. Let me restate them:

I have heard people advocate that no one at Mass should hold others’ hands or assume the orans at the Our Father (except the celebrant), and:

I have heard other people advocate that everyone at Mass should assume the orans at the Our Father, and:

I have heard still other people advocate that everyone at Mass, or at least everyone in the assembly should hold hands at the Our Father.

In all of these cases the reason given was that this comon posture would be an expression of unity.

Quote:
Not pew-back grasping, not hymnal clasping.
These are not liturgical gestures, and are not imposed upon our neighbor. If someone needs to brace himself on the back of the pew ahead of him, that’s not the same as interjecting a new gesture during a specific point of the Mass. [/qoute]

I agree. I do find it interesting, though, that many who may rightly object to having their neighbors’ pious practices imposed upon themselves often have no compunctions about imposing their own pious practices or lack thereof upon their neignbors.

Come on, now, you’re grasping at straws to defend hand holding. :whacky:

I beg your pardon, but is a “Whacky” smiley really necessary? I am trying to conduct a civil discussion, addressing other participants courteously, and I would appreciate the same in return.

Leaving that aside, though, you miss my point. I am not defending hand holding. The burden of proof in that argument is on those who advocate against it. They have yet to demonstrate a conclusive argument showing that it is forbidden; lack of a specific positive statement saying it is allowed is not sufficient. I am not aware of any positive statements in the Missal stating that blessing one’s self with holy water before and after Mass, genuflecting when entering or leaving one’s pew at Mass, or many other pious practices are specifically allowed either. Should we construe such lack as an indication that these are forbidden liturgical innovations as well? (If there are positive references to these in the Missal I am sure someone here will correct me.) My personal opinion is against hand holding. I think that it may suggest that the primary sign of our unity is the Our Father rather than the Eucharist. But my opinion isn’t the issue here.

What, or rather who, I am defending are the targets of self appointed liturgical police who enjoy harrassing other worshipers who deviate from whatever standards they select. It doesn’t matter whether these dreaded nonconformists are those who do hold hands during the Our Father in an assembly who mostly do not, those who do not hold hands in an assembly who mostly do, or the old ladies who pray the rosary during Mass instead of “actively participating in all the parts of the Mass.” I have heard all of these criticized at some time, sometimes behind their backs, sometimes in their faces. I don’t think any of these groups should have to tolerate such bullying, especialy at Mass.

 

[condan]

Panis Angelicas:

I feel no bitterness in my heart toward those who hold hands, and cast no aspertions against them. In fact, I couldn’t tell you who does hold hands and who does not.

However, it does distract and distress me that the Sacred Liturgy is being “dumbed down,” with illegal and illicit practices and gestures being interjected, or rubrics being ignored, because these things are important!

Do I worry about the hand holders? Not in the least. But I do worry about the ignorance: Why are we not being formed as Catholics to know and love the Sacred Liturgy, and to participate as the Magisterium instructs?

I desire to be a part of the Universal Roman Catholic Church, not some dissenting, do-it-my-way, sloppy and dare I say perhaps even less sacred form of worship.

As a Roman Catholic, it is my right to attend a Mass correctly, licitly, and validly celebrated.

To live in a country where we can freely worship, and yet allow the Mass to become so widely abused is unconscionable; and we will be held accountable who notice such wrongdoings and disobedient acts taking root in our parishes, and say nothing.

And yes, I have written my pastor about “some” of the abuses I’ve observed.

Pax Christi. <><

Amen! Amen! Amen!

I do,however, resent those people who hit me on the arm or shoulder or otherwise nudge me to get my attention so they can grab my hand. I resent that are trying to foist their form of worship, which is not licit, on me. I further resent them doing the same to my children, thereby undermining what I have taught them. I also resent the dirty looks and cold shoulder I get from these same people after Mass.

We were given something beautiful in the Mass. It has lasted for nearly 2000 years. Why change it? Isn’t it perfect the way it is or did God make a mistake that he needs our generation to fix?

 

[javelin]

Thank you, Joseph Bilodeau, for your clear and straightforward comments. I agree with you 100%!!!
Joseph Bilodeau:

I do find it interesting, though, that many who may rightly object to having their neighbors’ pious practices imposed upon themselves often have no compunctions about imposing their own pious practices or lack thereof upon their neignbors.

…

I am not defending hand holding. The burden of proof in that argument is on those who advocate against it. They have yet to demonstrate a conclusive argument showing that it is forbidden; lack of a specific positive statement saying it is allowed is not sufficient.

…

I don’t think any of these groups should have to tolerate such bullying, especialy at Mass.

Amen to these points especially!!!

No one has given any real evidence to the harm that hand-holding during the Lord’s Prayer supposedly causes. The only legitimate complaint has been against the compulsion to hold hands or the bad reactions when one declines, and I don’t see that anyone has contended that those practices should be indoctrinated. While valid concerns, these can be dealt with by the parish, and don’t constitute sound spiritual or liturgical reasoning for denying everyone the opportunity to hold their brother’s hand during a prayer at Mass, if they want to.

Again, thank you Joseph for holding a brilliant light to this discussion.

javelin

 

[georgeaquinas]

Panis Angelicas:

We are instructed not to add anything or delete anything from the GIRM.

Does the GIRM say that we all should wear clothes to Mass? If not, I am going buck naked!

 

[deogratias]

Well if you are an EMCH it does say you should dress modestly and neatly - I don’t think buck naked would be acceptable.

Seriously the fullness of what the Church teaches is not in the GIRM and the Church does teach modesty, virtue, chastity in all of life, not just at Mass - so your apples from the Garden of Eden cannot compare with the oranges of liturgy

 

[Fidelis]

Aside from the fact that it is not called for in the rubrics, there are many reasons why people object ot holding hands during the Our Father. One is that a person who does not wish to hold hands in a congregation of people who have come to fully expect everyone to hold hands, is forced to take a perceptively negative action, i.e. actively declining to hold hands. This marks that person out as an unfriendly boor when, ironically, all they are doing is declining to participate in an act that is not even required!

People dislike holding hands with strangers for a variety of reasons. For many people, hand-holding is a very personal action shared with those who are very close–spouses, lovers, parents and children. To be forced to participate or appear hopelessly churlish is unfair and embarrassing to them. What about the objection “At Mass we are all supposed to be one big family anyway; we should be able to show the love we are supposed to feel.” Well, that is the purpose of “the kiss of peace” before Holy Communion. In some cultures, a fraternal gesture is literally a kiss. In the Orient, it is a polite bow. In our culture, it is a friendly shaking of hands. To go from a more intimate expression of love (holding hands) to a less intimate (a handshake) does not make any sense. If someone wants to hold hands with their spouse or kids during the Our Father, more power to them. When the entire congregation automatically goes into the stretch across the pews mode at the invitation to pray, it becomes intrusive and presumptive.

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

Joseph Bilodeau:

I was not expressing an opinion, I was reporting observations I have made. Let me restate them:
…In all of these cases the reason given was that this comon posture would be an expression of unity.

These are still opinions, even if not your own. The rubrics do not call for a hand-holding position or gesture, (and never have! Hand-holding is an innovation) and we are not to arbitrarily add things to the Mass, including gestures. If you take the time to read even just the forward of Inaestiambile Donum, you will find this:
The faithful have a right to a true Liturgy, which means the
Liturgy desired and laid down by the Church, which has in fact indicated where adaptations may be made as called for by pastoral requirements in different places or by different groups of people.
Undue experimentation, changes and creativity bewilder the faithful…
**The Second Vatican Council’s admonition in this regard must be remembered: “No person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove or change anything in
the Liturgy on his own authority.” **
And Paul VI of venerable memory stated that: "Anyone who takes advantage of the reform to
indulge in arbitrary experiments is wasting energy and offending the ecclesial sense."

many who may rightly object to having their neighbors’ pious practices imposed upon themselves often have no compunctions about imposing their own pious practices or lack thereof upon their neignbors.

Such as???

I am not defending hand holding. The burden of proof in that argument is on those who advocate against it.

I disagree. The burden of proof should be upon those who have introduced or adopted the new gesture. If it meets with Church approval, they should have no problem demonstrating historical or documented proof of such approval of this gesture during the Mass. Otherwise, as my quote from Inaestimabile Donum above states, they are “offending the ecclesial sense.”

lack of a specific positive statement saying it is allowed is not sufficient.

The GIRM is all positive statements about what is to be done, not what isn’t. Again, if the Church has to think up all the potential ways someone can mess up Her Mass, and compile a list of “don’ts” then when would she have time for anything else? Instead, She lists the proper manner for doing things, along with the admonition not to add or delete anything arbitrarily. Too bad some folks just can’t obey, even in the simplest matters.:nope:

I have heard all of these criticized at some time, sometimes behind their backs, sometimes in their faces. I don’t think any of these groups should have to tolerate such bullying, especialy at Mass.

You’ve not given a single example of such people being bullied. Please elaborate. Correction is not bullying, clarification is not bullying, discussion is not bullying, and refusing to engage in the unwanted, unwarranted gesture is not bullying.

Bullying is threatening. How do we threaten? None of us has “targetted” a fellow worshipper in these threads.

We’ve targetted a particular **gesture, **which is inappropriate, innovative, distracting, disruptive, and above all ~ invasive.

Pax Christi. <><

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

I tried to break down your remarks to the very meat of the matter above, and the incidental remarks here.

I beg your pardon, but is a “Whacky” smiley really necessary?

Mea culpa.
I’m sorry, but suggesting that holding a hymnal or bracing against the back of a pew is a liturgical gesture not found in the rubrics is (imho) :whacky: . No offense intended.

I am not aware of any positive statements in the Missal stating that blessing one’s self with holy water before and after Mass, genuflecting when entering or leaving one’s pew at Mass, or many other pious practices are specifically allowed either.

Pardon my indulgence, but :whacky: you’re doing it again.
Pious practices performed by the faithful prior to the beginning of the Mass are not listed in the Missal.
The GIRM instructs on the rubrics of the Mass, from beginning to end.
Blessing ourselves with holy water and genuflecting to the tabernacle before entering our pew occur before Mass begins.
You might want to check out stpatrick-stlawrence.org/why_do_we_do_that.htm
to better understand the Church’s instructions and traditions regarding the faithful’s gestures and practices before Mass.

What, or rather who, I am defending are the targets of self appointed liturgical police who enjoy harrassing other worshipers who deviate from whatever standards they select.

:bigyikes: Oops, soooory. I thought you were:

trying to conduct a civil discussion, addressing other participants courteously

And since you…

would appreciate the same in return

Are you the self-appointed defender of worshippers who deviate from whatever standards they select?

these dreaded nonconformists

dreaded non-conformists? Let’s call them what they really are: liturgical gesture inventers! And ya know what?
I don’t dread them.
I just deplore the ignorance and the disobedience.
It is indefensible.
Our Church has given us a beautiful Mass.
Too bad some people think they can do better than the Church Herself!

**“The faithful have a right to a true Liturgy, which is a liturgy desired and laid down by the Church.” **
Holy Mother Church has laid down a recipe for a perfect Mass.
Adding uncalled-for ingredients spoils the flavor. :nope:
Don’t mess with Mamma’s recipe! :tsktsk:

Pax Christi. <><

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

georgeaquinas:

Does the GIRM say that we all should wear clothes to Mass? If not, I am going buck naked!

Ummm. Yeah.
Maybe it’ll catch on, like holding hands!

 

[Mandi]

Panis Angelicas:

Why are we not being formed as Catholics to know and love the Sacred Liturgy, and to participate as the Magisterium instructs?

Good Question! I graduated out of a small rural Catholic School. My graduating class consisted of 18 people. I am the only one who attends Mass and follows the laws of The Catholic Church.

However, the class is manage to produce a protestant minister!

 

[BobCatholic]

“Praise God and pass the ammunition” - anonymous Christian soldier.



We have an obligation to fight against evil, small or large.

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

I beg your pardon, but is a “Whacky” smiley really necessary? Mea culpa.
I’m sorry, but suggesting that holding a hymnal or bracing against the back of a pew is a liturgical gesture not found in the rubrics is (imho) :whacky: . No offense intended.[/qoute]

Apology accepted. Your apology would be more credible, though, had you refrained from using more impolite emoticons in this reply.

If you will carefully reread my post, you will please note that I did not suggest that “holding a hymnal or bracing against the back of a pew is a liturgical gesture not found in the rubrics…” What I said was that No particular hand posture was mandated or forbidden in the Missal.

Pious practices performed by the faithful prior to the beginning of the Mass are not listed in the Missal…

My point exactly.

…The GIRM instructs on the rubrics of the Mass, from beginning to end.
Blessing ourselves with holy water and genuflecting to the tabernacle before entering our pew occur before Mass begins.

Are you, therefore, saying that if a person arrives after the begining of Mass and blesses himself with holy water and genuflects before entering his pew (or has to leave Mass early and does the same upon exiting), that he is performing an unauthorized liturgical innovation, since this action is not present in the rubrics and is occuring after Mass has started?

Quote:
What, or rather who, I am defending are the targets of self appointed liturgical police who enjoy harrassing other worshipers who deviate from whatever standards they select.
:bigyikes: Oops, soooory. I thought you were:
Quote:
trying to conduct a civil discussion, addressing other participants courteously

As I presume that all participants in this discussion are gentlemen and gentlewomen until proven otherwise, who would never think of interfering with another’s worship at Mass, you may be assured that my characterization of the liturgical police is not directed at any participant in this discussion.

Are you the self-appointed defender of worshippers who deviate from whatever standards they select?

I do not hold any office with authority in regards to others’ behavior at Mass.

**“The faithful have a right to a true Liturgy, which is a liturgy desired and laid down by the Church.” **

Agreed. My point in this discussion has been that those who object to others performing certain pious practices have failed to demonstrate that the forbidding of these practices has been “laid down by the Church.”

Yours in Christ,

Joseph Bilodeau.

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

“Praise God and pass the ammunition” - anonymous Christian soldier.



We have an obligation to fight against evil, small or large.

Pat Buchanan:
“Lock and load!”
“Peasants with pitchforks…”

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

Joseph Bilodeau:

If you will carefully reread my post, you will please note that I did not suggest that “holding a hymnal or bracing against the back of a pew is a liturgical gesture not found in the rubrics…” What I said was that No particular hand posture was mandated or forbidden in the Missal.

The Missal instructs us to observe certain postures, gestures, prayers and rubrics. Why even bring up a common body posture such as holding the hymnal? We are discussing the incorporation of a new, innovative gesture during a specific part of the Mass; that being holding hands during the Our Father. Your other arguments are irrelevent or seem to be missing the point.

The Church states: "No person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the Liturgy on his own authority. Anyone who takes advantage of the reform to indulge in arbitrary experiements is wasting energy and offending the ecclesial sense."

Are you, therefore, saying that if a person arrives after the begining of Mass and blesses himself with holy water and genuflects before entering his pew (or has to leave Mass early and does the same upon exiting), that he is performing an unauthorized liturgical innovation, since this action is not present in the rubrics and is occuring after Mass has started?

What can I say? There you go again…:whacky:

If this is a true concern of yours, start a new thread on it.
Otherwise, it’s irrelevent to the discussion.

As I presume that all participants in this discussion are gentlemen and gentlewomen until proven otherwise, who would never think of interfering with another’s worship at Mass, you may be assured that my characterization of the liturgical police is not directed at any participant in this discussion.

Then what did you mean when you stated

many who…object to having their neighbors’ pious practices imposed upon themselves often have no compunctions about imposing their own pious practices or lack thereof upon their neignbors.

I asked for examples, but you didn’t respond. What on earth are you talking about?
Are you calling hand-holding at the Our Father during the Mass a “pious practice,” and those who refrain from doing so are imposing a “lack thereof upon their neighbors?”

My point in this discussion has been that those who object to others performing certain pious practices have failed to demonstrate that the forbidding of these practices has been “laid down by the Church.”

The Church has laid down the Liturgy. Period. I have already stated that she shouldn’t have to lay down the “thou shalt nots.” It is Her Liturgy. The Liturgy is the property of the Church. Anyone tampering with the Sacred Liturgy is vandalizing Church property.

Here again are the Church’s words:"The faithful have a right to a true Liturgy, which means the Liturgy desired and laid down by the Church…"

And: "No person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove or change anything in the Liturgy on his own authority."

Um, yup. I’d say the Church is forbidding anything being added to the Liturgy, whether you want to call hand-holding a pious practice or a sign of unity or whatever.

The rubrics for the Liturgy are found in the GIRM, and hand-holding during the Our Father isn’t instructed in the GIRM, and the Church says not to add or change anything, so…Unless someone is completely uninformed, illiterate, or just plain disobedient, they will not hold hands, and will not defend the gesture.

But of course, I am not referring to any of the gentlemen or gentlewomen on this forum.

Pax Christi. <><

 

[BobCatholic]

By playing around with the mass, they are violating our rights!

Interesting how if our civil rights are violated, we would stand up and object furiously, but when our ecclesiastical rights are being violated, yawn-o-rama…

Hmmmm?

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

Why even bring up a common body posture such as holding the hymnal? We are discussing the incorporation of a new, innovative gesture during a specific part of the Mass; that being holding hands during the Our Father. Your other arguments are irrelevent or seem to be missing the point.

The Church states: "No person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the Liturgy on his own authority. Anyone who takes advantage of the reform to indulge in arbitrary experiements is wasting energy and offending the ecclesial sense."

I fully agree with the instruction above, but let me see if I understand your position: some extraliturgical actions are common body postures not covered by the instruction not to change the Liturgy, but others are innovative gestures which are covered. And since the Missal does not address the question of which category certain actions fall into, you are the one who gets to decide which actions waste energy and offend the ecclesial sense and which do not. Pardon me, I do not believe you are really as presumptuous as that, but that is certainly how you are coming across.

Far from missing the point, drawing comparisons is a common method of explaining a point. If this seems irrelevant to you, that is unfortunate as it makes the task of holding a discussion that much more difficult.

What can I say? There you go again…:whacky:

If this is a true concern of yours, start a new thread on it.
Otherwise, it’s irrelevent to the discussion.

And there you go again. Your presistient use of the Whacky emoticon indicates that you are more interested in riduculing my posts than in discussing them.That is unfortunate. I have no interest in starting another thread. May I suggest that If you find my posts irrevelant you are under no obligation to respond to them in this one?

You’ve not given a single example of such people being bullied. Please elaborate. Correction is not bullying, clarification is not bullying, discussion is not bullying, and refusing to engage in the unwanted, unwarranted gesture is not bullying.

Bullying is threatening. How do we threaten? None of us has “targetted” a fellow worshipper in these threads…

Are you calling hand-holding at the Our Father during the Mass a “pious practice,” and those who refrain from doing so are imposing a “lack thereof upon their neighbors?”

Yes, I would say that holding hands as an expression of charity and fraternity could certainly be defined as a pious expression;

No, I would not and did not say that persons exercising their right not to reciprocate such a gesture if offered are imposing a lack of pious practice upon their neighbors, but;

Yes, I would say that persons who go out of their way to prevent other worshipers from holding each others hands should be categorized as an imposing of a lack of a pious practice upon ones neighbor and as bullying.

I would not limit bullying to threatening. I would also include public embarasment or intimidation. I beg your pardon, but I thought I had made it clear that this sort of interfering with other worshipers who are minding their own business was the bullying to which I was referring. Fortunately I have not seen this happen often, but even once is too often. Some years ago an elderly woman reached forward and slapped the hands of a young couple in the pew in front of her, saying quite loudly “this is Church, not a movie theater!” I would categorize this as bullying and imposing her lack of pious practice upon her neighbor. They were not trying to hold that woman’s hands, nor were they exhibiting any impropriety with each other.

I have never suspected or suggested that any participants in this discussion have ever behaved in such a disgraceful manner as this, and I am delighted to hear this confirmed.

Yours in Christ,

Joseph Bilodeau.

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

[/indent]
let me see if I understand your position: some extraliturgical actions are common body postures not covered by the instruction not to change the Liturgy, but others are innovative gestures which are covered. And since the Missal does not address the question of which category certain actions fall into, you are the one who gets to decide which actions waste energy and offend the ecclesial sense and which do not… Yours in Christ,

Joseph Bilodeau.

Well, Joe, it all boils down to this:

I gave you a link to describe why the Church does certain things.

It described the reasons why we bless with holy water and genuflect to the tabernacle.

There are also **Church documents instructing the lay faithful to genuflect to the tabernacle whenever they pass it, unless in procession. ** If you want, I’ll give you the document name and paragraph number, though I can’t pop it off the top of my head.

But the Church does put the holy water fonts at the entrance of the church for a reason: so that the faithful will bless themselves. And the Church does instruct the faithful to genuflect to the tabernacle.

The Church does not instruct the faithful at any point to join in the united gesture of leaning against the pew. No one does this in unison at some particular point of the Mass, to my understanding. No one expects others to do it also.
That point is moot.

Generally, the priest, lector, or choir director will let the faithful know what hymn number is about to be sung, and the faithful are expected to sing. Thus, if they don’t know the lyrics, they would be expected to follow the hymnals which are provided by the Church in the pews for their use.

Now, regarding hand holding…well, I’ve already presented the Church’s statements. And I’m beating a dead horse.

Some people just enjoy arguing for argument’s sake, and I cannot see where your obstinance is bringing about any quality dialogue, nor convincing anyone that the Church actually ok’s hand-holding during the Our Father during Mass.

It’s as plain as the nose on anyone’s face what gestures are permitted, called for, laid down by the Church, etc., and which ones are not. You should be able to figure it out for yourself, Joe, and if not, I doubt that anyone can convince you otherwise.

God bless. <><

 

[javelin]

Again, thank you, Joseph, for your calm responses to the barrage you’ve been intelligently accepting. You are more eloquently able to defend a position that I believe, and I thank you for your efforts, which are given in charity since you don’t even personally believe in hand-holding during the prayer.

I would like to add, however that** no one has yet given any reasons why hand-holding by members of the congregation, by their personal choice, is harmful to God or the Mass.

**The only post really hitting this point was this post by Fidelis
One is that a person who does not wish to hold hands in a congregation of people who have come to fully expect everyone to hold hands, is forced to take a perceptively negative action, i.e. actively declining to hold hands. This marks that person out as an unfriendly boor when, ironically, all they are doing is declining to participate in an act that is not even required!
…
To go from a more intimate expression of love (holding hands) to a less intimate (a handshake) does not make any sense. If someone wants to hold hands with their spouse or kids during the Our Father, more power to them. When the entire congregation automatically goes into the stretch across the pews mode at the invitation to pray, it becomes intrusive and presumptive.
The points seem to be:

1. People should not be forced to hold hands
2. People should not be disdained for declining to hold hands
3. Holding hands trumps the Sign of Peace

While I can understand these concerns (they are valid), they still do not explain why holding hands during the prayer would be an affront to God. No one on any of these posts has even suggested that congragations should require hand-holding. It seems almost univerally accepted that this would not be right (point 1 handled).

In response to point 2, those who act in a disdainful or reproachful way clearly do not understand that others may enter into the prayer more deeply in solitude. I would argue that that can be dealt with quickly by an explanation from the priest, and does not rise to the level of being sufficiently serious that the entire personal practice should be banned. People are still sinners, and will do rude things occasionally do matter what the Church decrees. (point 2 handled)

In response to point 3, I would argue (as I posted earlier) that hand-holding prior to the Sign of Peace actually enhances it, as opposed to overshadowing it. No evidence has been offered (other than anecdotal) that people actually believe the Sign of Peace is stupid *because *they hold hands during the Lord’s Prayer. (point 3 handled)

I’m still trying to think of a good reason why *this specific act *needs to be forbidden. Don’t just say “Nothing can change!!!”, because that doesn’t make sense. Christ instituted a living, apostolic Church precisely because aspects of religion evolve. No, not core doctrine or dogma, but ancilliary practices.

And in keeping with Joseph’s point about the lack of comment in the GIRM on a specific hand position during the Lord’s Prayer, the admonition not to add or remove things from the liturgy could be applied if people were trying to require hand-holding (thereby creating a common rubric), but since no one has suggested requiring the gesture, it is up to the individual to decide what to do with his/her hands. There is no other option other than a specific declaration by the Church to have the hands in a specific position.

I’m still cannot comprehend why God would not want people to hold hands during His prayer.

javelin

 

[mizcebe]

parishminister:

What is the point of our coming together for Sunday Mass? What is the reason that Jesus established the Eucharist in the first place?
Does it lessen the grace you receive because the woman behind you uses inclusive language (btw, that annoys me as well)? Does it decrease the value of your praise and thanksgiving to God because your fellow believers have personal conversations during the Consecration? Is the Mass less valid because a renegade priest adds words to the Eucharistic prayer? Are you any less blessed by the honor and privelege (not right) of being present at this gift to the Church because you don’t agree with the music choices? If all you can do when you come out of Mass is list the “abuses” either real or perceived, that inhibits your ability to be Jesus to the world…and isn’t that the purpose of receiving our Lord; body, blood, soul and divinity, in the most holy Eucharist? I am only trying to say, what I have learned, through personal experience (my questions, are in fact, all real instances of my own legalistic behavior in the past) that you can break the spirit of the law by being too focussed (sp?) on the details. Admonish the sinner? absolutely. Correct sacreligious acts? without question. Identify and help resolve real liturgical abuses? no doubt, we must. It just seems to me that some folks go into Mass with the preconceived notion of finding fault…that creates the laundry list mentality mentioned…and that, in my opinion is abusing the purpose of the Liturgy.
Peace…

I agree and disagree with the points you made. I agree that we should not be going to Mass with the intent of making sure that all the “proper” rules are observed. We should be focused on the magnificent gift we are about to receive and on showing our love and reverence to our Lord.
Unfortunately, it is sometimes difficult to concentrate on those things when those around you are “doing their own thing”. It would be like the Tower of Babel if everyone substituted his own language for that in the missal or engaged his neighbor in conversation!
It is also difficult to fully participate in Mass when you are traveling outside your home parish when so many churches have a different way of celebrating Mass. I just came back from a road trip and had trouble locating the tabernacle in the church I attended. It was hidden behind the rostrum and a large gurgling fountain. The large crucifix behind the altar was taken down for the processional and the priest actually removed it during his homily and waved it around. There was a LOT of socializing going on before Mass and during the announcements. While I am certain that the priest and the parishoners meant no disrespect, it all seemed a bit irreverent. Those things make it more difficult to keep one’s mind focused. Maybe that’s just me. I would really appreciate consistency from one parish to the next and I think that is the purpose of the GIRM.

As far as the hand holding, I think the problem there is the way those who do not wish to participate are sometimes regarded. I admit to feeling a bit intimidated into holding hands even though I would rather not. Now some people are raising their hands in the air at the end of the prayer. I confess to real annoyance at that as I have a torn rotator cuff and it has actually caused me pain! I don’t have a problem with others doing it, but it seems that attitude doesn’t go both ways and I feel obligated to explain to my pewmate why I don’t wish to hold hands. That doesn’t seem right or fair to me.

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

condan:

I do,however, resent those people who hit me on the arm or shoulder or otherwise nudge me to get my attention so they can grab my hand.

Sorry, but this arm-slap is part of their rubrics. We all should do it to each other, right at the beginning of the Our Father, to get the attention of the person sitting next to us. Slap, nudge, grab. It’s the brotherly, neighborly way to pray these days!

I also resent the dirty looks and cold shoulder I get from these same people after Mass.

There seems to be a resentful attitude if you don’t want to worship “their” way.

Isn’t it perfect the way it is or did God make a mistake that he needs our generation to fix?

The Mass, as laid down by the Church, is about as perfect as anything this side of heaven.