Instigating martyrdom

[dronald]

Is it right or wrong to seek out martyrdom if safety is also an option? For example, I live in Canada but if I go to Saudi to preach there with the intent of being martyrd have I sinned or have I done a good thing?

I think that if one could get away or be martyrd but choose to be martyrd then they have done a just thing. But if one has absolutely no chance of being martyrd unless they seek it out, is such right or wrong?

 

[underacloud]

For example, I live in Canada but if I go to Saudi to preach there with the intent of being martyrd have I sinned or have I done a good thing?

Sorry…um…what?

Wouldn’t your intent be to preach the gospel of Christ?

Instead, you say your intent is martyrdom. You have things back-to-front. Martyrdom is an acceptable risk in preaching the good news, but it is not an end to seek out. How can you preach once you’re dead? I don’t know of any of the great martyrs of the Church who sought out such an end. They always sought to preach the gospel.

 

[dronald]

Sorry…um…what?

Wouldn’t your intent be to preach the gospel of Christ?

Instead, you say your intent is martyrdom. You have things back-to-front. Martyrdom is an acceptable risk in preaching the good news, but it is not an end to seek out. How can you preach once you’re dead? I don’t know of any of the great martyrs of the Church who sought out such an end. They always sought to preach the gospel.

Just to be clear, I’m speaking hypothetically. I’m not actually planning this, lol.

What I’m asking is if someone really just wants to die for the sake of Christ by preaching the Gospel. As in, they would rather be murdered for preaching Christ than to go home safely after preaching Christ. Would such be okay or would God prefer that you stay alive as long as possible in order to keep preaching?

For instance, look at Paul’s dilemma:

Philippians 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

22 If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell.

23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.

24 But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account.

25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all, for your progress and joy in the faith,

26 so that in me you may have ample cause to glory in Christ Jesus, because of my coming to you again

So what’s better? To die for Christ or continue living and preaching?

 

[GEddie]

We are not to seek out death; human life is a good in itself. We will lose it soon enough.

There is more preaching of Christ to be done in decades alive, than in a one-time rush to the head block.

( And those you might reach in your decades alive will be more motivated to share your faith than those watching you being led to the head block.)

In the Muslim conquest of Spain in the 700s, numerous Spanish Christians did as you suggest, and were killed. The Church ended up warning that to seek out death in this way was NOT truly martyrdom.

ICXC NIKA

 

[bzkoss236]

I don’t think the issue is necessarily the martyrdom, but the seeking of your own death, which is essentially suicide. If your intent is to die, then I don’t think you would be a martyr, but a victim of assisted suicide. Suicide is a sin. A martyr does not seek to die, they seek to preach the Gospel, then those against the Faith try to force them to deny their Faith. And when they don’t, they are killed.

 

[underacloud]

What I’m asking is if someone really just wants to die for the sake of Christ by preaching the Gospel. As in, they would rather be murdered for preaching Christ than to go home safely after preaching Christ. Would such be okay or would God prefer that you stay alive as long as possible in order to keep preaching?

Certainly there are saints who wanted martrydom and prayed for it, but they didn;t do silly things just to get themselves killed.

Accepting martyrdom as a risk, as well as potentially a reward, is different from seeking it.

24 But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account.

…

So what’s better? To die for Christ or continue living and preaching?

Doesn’t St Paul’s quote here address this? Yes, to die for Christ is great. But if His will for us is to preach the gospel, then that is what we do.

St Paul was imprisoned many times and his life in danger many times, but he actually relied on his Roman citizenship to get out of many situations and utilised the protection that this citizenship afforded him.

 

[Cathoholic]

Martyrdom and Desire

Martyrdom is a great gift not granted to anyone wanting it.

St. Ignatius of Antioch wished for this and asked his fellow Catholics in his letter to the Romans (not ordered but implored them) not to impede his evident upcoming martyrdom.

**St. Ignatius of Antioch . . . **

I write to the Churches, and impress on them all, that I shall willingly die for God, unless you hinder me. I beseech of you not to show an unseasonable good-will towards me. Allow me to become food for the wild beasts, through whose instrumentality it will be granted me to attain to God. I am the wheat of God, and let me be ground by the teeth of the wild beasts, that I may be found the pure bread of Christ. Rather entice the wild beasts, that they may become my tomb, and may leave nothing of my body; so that when I have fallen asleep [in death], I may be no trouble to any one. Then shall I truly be a disciple of Christ, when the world shall not see so much as my body. Entreat Christ for me, that by these instruments I may be found a sacrifice [to God]. I do not, as Peter and Paul, issue commandments unto you. They were apostles; I am but a condemned man: they were free, while I am, even until now, a servant. But when I suffer, I shall be the freed-man of Jesus, and shall rise again emancipated in Him. And now, being a prisoner, I learn not to desire anything worldly or vain.

Can read it here – see Chapter 4.

St. Anthony of Padua (when he was still a Congregation of Canons Regular of St. Augustine) and some passing-through Franciscans used to sit up in the evening and talk of martyrdom together according to a book I had read on St. Anthony’s life. Then these Franciscans left for Morocco to preach the Gospel. These men knew they were going to end up martyred or convert a significant portion of Morocco. They later “came back” this way (as seen in this EWTN article) . . . .

. . . . Already at the age of fifteen years, he (St. Anthony) had entered the Congregation of Canons Regular of St. Augustine and devoted himself with great earnestness both to study and to the practice of piety in the Monastery at Coimbra (Portugal).

About that time some of the first members of the Order of Friars Minor, which St. Francis has founded in 1206 A. D. came to Coimbra. They begged from the Canons Regular a small and very poor place, from which by their evangelical poverty and simplicity they edified everyone in the region. Then in 1219 A. D. some of these friars, moved by divine inspiration, went as missionaries to preach the Gospel of Christ to the inhabitants of Morocco. There they were brutally martyred for the Faith. Some Christian merchants succeeded in recovering their remains; and so brought their relics in triumph back to Coimbra.

The relics of St. Bernard and companions, the first martyrs of the Franciscan Order, seized St. Anthony with an intense desire to suffer martyrdom in a like manner. So moved by their heroic example he repeatedly begged and petitioned his superiors to be given leave to join the Franciscan Order. In the quiet little Franciscan convent at Coimbra he received a friendly reception, and in the same year his earnest wish to be sent to the missions in Africa was fulfilled.

St. Anthony’s Arrival in Italy

But God had decreed otherwise. And so, St. Anthony scarcely set foot on African soil when he was seized with a grievous illness. Even after recovering from it, he was so weak that, resigning himself to the will of God, he boarded a boat back to Portugal. Unexpectedly a storm came upon them and drove the ship to the east where it found refuge on coast of Sicily. St. Anthony was greeted and given shelter by the Franciscans of that island, and thus came to be sent to Assisi, where the general chapter of the Order was held in May, 1221 A. D. . . .

See the whole EWTN article here.

Free public domain books on the life of Saint Anthony here and here. I did not read these public domain books but I just got done perusing them and wish I had read them.

I cannot answer your question the way you’d like but I hope this at least gives you insight for meditation.

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[thistle]

Is it right or wrong to seek out martyrdom if safety is also an option? For example, I live in Canada but if I go to Saudi to preach there with the intent of being martyrd have I sinned or have I done a good thing?

I think that if one could get away or be martyrd but choose to be martyrd then they have done a just thing. But if one has absolutely no chance of being martyrd unless they seek it out, is such right or wrong?

I would not say what you are asking would qualify as being a martyr. You would not be going there to not renounce you faith. You would be going there simply looking to die. That is not a martyr.

MARTYR. A person who chooses to suffer, even to die, rather than renounce his or her faith or Christian principles. After the example of Christ one does not resist one’s persecutors when they use violence out of hatred or malice against Christ, or his Church, or some revealed truth of the Catholic religion. (Etym. Greek martyros, witness, martyr.)

Also, apart from the above, you know in advance that Saudi Law does not allow preaching of any religions other than Islam so you would not even be allowed into the country in the first place.

 

[Starrsmother]

Is it right or wrong to seek out martyrdom if safety is also an option? For example, I live in Canada but if I go to Saudi to preach there with the intent of being martyrd have I sinned or have I done a good thing?

I think that if one could get away or be martyrd but choose to be martyrd then they have done a just thing. But if one has absolutely no chance of being martyrd unless they seek it out, is such right or wrong?

This is a very interesting subject. Do you remember hearing the story of Father Emil Kapaun who, during the Korean war was basically martyred in a Korean POW camp? He was recently awarded the Medal of Honor posthumously. I really feel like if ever there was anyone in modern times that should be declared a saint by the church it’s him. He not only carried a wounded man to the camp who would otherwise have undoubtedly fallen by the wayside and been shot by the Koreans, but he dedicated the rest of his life in that camp to caring for both the spiritual and physical needs of all his fellow captives regardless of religion. When he became ill himself, the Koreans hauled him off to solitary confinement where he ultimately died–but as they carried him away he said “Father, forgive them–they know not what they do.”

However, the simple fact is that according to the men who served and were captured with him and remain alive, he would never have been taken captive except that he insisted on not running with those who had escaped captivity. Instead, he deliberately made the choice to go with those who were captured–fully aware he could escape but choosing not to do so. Apparently, the Korean POW camps were infamous for torture and murder and not too many survived. Father Emil had to know all of this just as well as he knew that he had every chance to avoid capture but chose not to do so.

I have wondered the same thing as the person who began this thread. Father Emil is undoubtedly a great hero. Was he right though to choose to stay and die and be there to care for the captured–or should he have left when he had the chance and avoided capture? We could play this through again if we substituted Father Damian and the lepers in Hawaii.
I know what I think–but would love others to consider and discuss this and see what some of you think would be the right choice. Life or death–which would we hope we would choose in either of these situations? And which option is right? Or possibly both options are right–one just requires a lot more bravery than the other, which some have more or less of than the next person. What does everyone think?:angel1:

 

[Neofight]

Great food for thought.

If the goal is to preach the gospel and the proclaimer is killed he would be a martyr…however if martyrdom and not the proclamation is the primary intent, and the proclamation is the means, it may not be an act of martyrdom, but rather a thinly veiled act of suicide that God may see through…ironically leaving the salvation of the soul of this person in jeopardy rather than in certainty.

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

Sorry…um…what?

Wouldn’t your intent be to preach the gospel of Christ?

Instead, you say your intent is martyrdom. You have things back-to-front. Martyrdom is an acceptable risk in preaching the good news, but it is not an end to seek out. How can you preach once you’re dead? I don’t know of any of the great martyrs of the Church who sought out such an end. They always sought to preach the gospel.

Saint Anthony of Padua and Saint Dominic De Guzman both actively sought out martyrdom. Saint Anthony was actually on his way to the middle east to preach and (Hopefully) get martyred when instead his ship wrecked in a storm and he landed in Italy. When both tried to get martyred, something always happened that made them safe, and they (From my understanding) learned that actively seeking out martyrdom was wrong. The Crown of Martyrdom is a beautiful thing, but we shouldn’t seek it out, much like Jesus appearing to you is beautiful, but you shouldn’t seek it out. It’s a gift for a select few, not something we should all strive for.

 

[rcwitness]

The best and most noble thing to do is God’s Will.

Peter was anxious to be killed with Jesus, but that was not God’s will, nor was he worthy of that. With God’s help, he lived and participated in laying the foundation of the Church, then when it was God’s time to bring him into martyrdom, he was given the strength.

I agree that many Saint’s shared your passion to be one of the Lord’s lambs. Wasn’t it St Ignatius who was so passionate about martyrdom? But our desire should be to do God’s Will no matter what kind of death we are given.

Becoming a missionary in a place where we know is a risk for our lives is very admirable, and obedient to Jesus. But our life should be taken as precious and able to live for Him. If in living for Him, we are put to death, that is glory to God in the highest.

 

[henpecked]

so you are saying you want to take on as much risk as possible to die, i.e., pick the heartland of Islam and go preach the Gospel there and possibly even make yourself standout to be seen, and arrested and sounds like maybe captured and killed by an ISIS like group?

Murphy’s Law of Evangelizing says you will be arrested and thrown in jail forever but not martyred. You will probably make the news as Captured Canadian captured, family pleas for Canadian government intervention…

you want excitement, try North Korea.

 

[ready]

I believe that I have read that we are not supposed to seek out martyrdom. God bless you.

 

[simple_soul]

Maybe it’s just me but I would think that “seeking out martyrdom” and “instigating martyrdom” are not quite the same thing.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

So you want to kill yourself for God.

Do you honestly think that’s really a bright idea?

 

[schaeffer]

As far as the priest in the Korean war camp and the priest who worked with lepers, it appears they committed themselves to doing the work of Christ knowing it put them in grave harm, but also knowing that if God saw fit, they would not come to harm. They were about doing the work of Christ.

To seek martyrdom for martyrdoms sake…could be an act of pride, could be the choice of someone mentally unstable, could be someone called by God to set an example of obidience and faith to others. I don’t think someone on the outside could know unless it was confided to them.

I have a family member who said they wanted to find a place where they could be reasonably sure that to mission there would lead to martyrdom. They wanted to be a martyr, seeing as that would assure them that they would go to heaven. I do not think this was an act of pride, as much as an act of fear that that was the ONLY way they could achieve heaven, perhaps a crisis of faith. To the rest of the family, this seemed to be not an act of obedience, but something the person came up with themselves, in a sense, to bargain with God or force God to hold true to some promise…if one is martyred, one must be given heaven.

But even though he spoke freely to some of us about it, we still cannot ultimately know his mind or heart.

 

[Loly_Maria]

I would say that we should never do something for the sake of being martyred, but if we do a good thing and it results in martyrdom then that is very brave.

 

[Paleocon]

Is it right or wrong to seek out martyrdom if safety is also an option? For example, I live in Canada but if I go to Saudi to preach there with the intent of being martyrd have I sinned or have I done a good thing?

I think that if one could get away or be martyrd but choose to be martyrd then they have done a just thing. But if one has absolutely no chance of being martyrd unless they seek it out, is such right or wrong?

Such would not be sinful or “invalidate” the martyrdom, but it would nonetheless be ill advised.

 

[ready]

Maybe it’s just me but I would think that “seeking out martyrdom” and “instigating martyrdom” are not quite the same thing.

How do you define “instigating martyrdom”? I still see it as seeking out a martyrs death for oneself.