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Horacio
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The guitar can be a most “elegant” musical instrument.
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M-Dent
Guest
Thank you.
Associating something with the sacred, long standing use and culture are determining factors.
In the 100+ years the current Church (in the parish my family belongs) has been standing no instrument has been used outside the organ. We have a wonderful 3 manual organ that’s rightly considered “part” of this beautiful huge Church. So in this environment - outside of the human voice - no other instrument is considered. I seriously doubt one ever will.
A parish somewhere in the African continent may make the same statement regarding a percussion instrument. There are deep reasons for this.
As opposed to say…one who wants to introduce a banjo and jug in the Liturgy because some music director loves bluegrass - which would be an example of a superficial understanding of both the use of musical instruments and the Liturgy itself.
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pnewton
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If I used name-calling to criticize either chant, Latin or classic hymns; if I said that the sound of an organ in Mass kills me, would anyone take this as a serious argument? Would I not rather be showing a rather extreme intolerance of all things I do not like? It is good to remember the Golden Rule as expressed by St. Paul that we should each rather strive for the good of others more than ourselves, especially at Mass.
It is just difficult for me to take those that are deadly extreme about their musical opinions seriously.
It is just difficult for me to take those that are deadly extreme about their musical opinions seriously.
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pnewton
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What? I can’t use my bluegrass Mass setting?
I see what your point is and I think it is valid. It is one thing to have an adaptation of the culture, where the music is just a part of a people. It is quite another to have an adaptation for a person, you wants to experiment. I think the lesson of the organ is important. By that I mean, the organ is close to the human voice in sound and supports the singing. I think an organist that attempts to overpower the singing is similar to the electric guitar soloist. Or the drum that does more than just keep the rhythm going. (I personally do not like drums, though).
I would say everyone that plays an instrument always needs to “mind their place”. They are a facilitator, not a leader. Whether they are doing a “good” job or bad, is better judged by whether people sing or not (or in a Catholic Church, whether more sing), not by how beautifully they play. Playing well is only the means. Congregational singing is the end. That’s my opinion.
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Sarabande
Guest
I agree with you on this, but I do think that if an instrument can be “rendered” to be made “apt” for liturgical use as suggested by the Church, then I don’t see a problem with it. A lot of people bash the guitar for use in liturgy. A part of me understands this as for many masses I’ve attended which employed the guitar, it has been used in ways which the player did not try to “render” it appropriate for liturgy. That said, I have worked with a couple guitarists who enlightened my mind with the ability of making it “apt” for liturgy. They proved to me that it can be done. Granted, they were very talented classical guitar musicians, but I would say that is the case for any instrument being played, whether it’s the organ, the voice, piano, etc. One can make the organ sound like a merry-go-round instrument or can make it sound so sublime or magestic, that it does sound like it is the voice of God… the voice of the cosmos, which was one of the reasons why the organ was initially used for liturgy.
I like the idea of one of the posters of experimenting in trying to incorporate the guitar to augment the organ. Doing that would connect us to our early Church music fathers (and mothers) who experimented with composition and instruments to see how well it would work within liturgy. If we didn’t have composers doing that for polyphony, for instance, we may have never had sacred polyphony at mass.
This is an example of one of the pieces I had to cantor with a classical guitarist for a wedding at a church where the organ was out of commission. The guitarist I worked with was a relative of the couple and was just as talented as Christopher Parkening (one of my favorite classical guitarists). The only thing is that I don’t think this style of playing is great for huge congregations, although I think it is appropriate rendering especially when accompanying smaller congregations or cantors. Not every place has or can afford an organ, or can find or afford an organist. If you can have a talented musician help out at mass and plays that instrument reverently and appropriately, making it “apt” for mass, I think that is fine. Oh… and this is coming from someone who believes that the organ and voice are the ideal for mass.
youtube.com/watch?v=0iX8tsA0N7E
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27lw
Guest
For those who have posted about the Matachines, that is fascinating. But I wonder, do they do their thing actually during Mass? Currently, and I wonder if so, did they do so before the 1960s (actually during the Mass, not a procession or something before / after)?
Also, for all those posting, “to each his own”, etc. The Church actually does have guidelines, it’s really not just a matter of personal taste.
For those folks who think that they have “long-standing usage” of guitars, percussion, etc. 30-40 years doesn’t really seem like long-standing in the eyes of a 2000-year-old Church. But that’s just my opinion - - I suppose, I just long for the Church to follow its own guidelines (organ pride of place, Gregorian Chant the official music of the liturgy).
Also, for all those posting, “to each his own”, etc. The Church actually does have guidelines, it’s really not just a matter of personal taste.
For those folks who think that they have “long-standing usage” of guitars, percussion, etc. 30-40 years doesn’t really seem like long-standing in the eyes of a 2000-year-old Church. But that’s just my opinion - - I suppose, I just long for the Church to follow its own guidelines (organ pride of place, Gregorian Chant the official music of the liturgy).
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Sarabande
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I personally think that if more specific wording was used, stating what actually is and is not permitted, it would help prevent headaches. When something like the phrase “long-standing usage” is used, it can be interpreted in various different ways. If they Church clarified this phrase by stating what “long-standing usage” is or what they mean by the “customs” in a specific area it would help those who plan the liturgy or take part in the liturgy, make better informed decisions on what to use during the liturgy. For instance, some parishes which are as milky-white, European descent as they can be, might have a music director who thinks it would be neat to employee African rhythm instruments into their music liturgy. They use the reasoning that these instruments have long standing usage in liturgies in certain regions of Africa, so it’s “ok” to use them at their parish. But if a certain culture has not used these kinds of instruments, ever, at mass how is that “long-standing usage”?
Now that we have better access to things, perhaps it would be helpful if the Church gave listening examples of what She considers appropriate rendering of instruments at mass for specific regions. She could even do this for compositions. Have page on the Church’s website dedicated solely to liturgical musicians who have questions about what is and is not permitted. Just cut and dried, black and white answers, rather than the ambiguous ones so many of my colleagues complain about. I think you’d have less arguing, debating, power struggles, etc. Then, at least you know who truly is doing it correctly and who is not.
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pnewton
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I believe the reason that this is not going to happen is that the Catholic Church is just too big for specifics. We are a mission to the whole world and we have subsidiarity for the very purpose of allowing the local ordinary and crew to decide how best to fulfill that mission. We tend to think of America as a subset of European Catholicism, but the reality is far from that, if even Europe could be said to have a one size fits all culture.
While I love classical guitar, I would rather have one guy on an autoharp strumming quarter notes just to keep pitch and rhythm than classic guitar solos. The latter sounds better, but is more about human achievement than the purpose of instruments. I have twice heard a classic guitar at Mass and both times it was played very well and very low key. On the other hand I have been to a couple of places where the organ so overpowered the singing that one could hardly make out the singing. In the end, I guess I am just a believer in teaching principles rather than rules. Yes, it confuses some, but I think it is usually a problem only when someone has a strong opinion about what they like, or what they think is right for music. In such a case, I think music is scarcely the most important problem, but a symptom of a problem. My solution is always simple. Take the baton, metaphorically.
I keep thinking as often as I have said this that someday someone with a really strong opinion will take me up on this just to make a point. This is my Brer Rabbit gambit. So, the weather is nice here. Anyone want to move to an obscure corner of the SE Texas?
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clem456
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27lw
Guest
Thanks Clem, for the clear explanation. I’m a long way from Matachine country, I suspect, and had never heard of this tradition.
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clem456
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I am in the Midwest. The Hispanic community is helping to reinvigorate the parish. They bring an ardent devotion that had been lost.
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Evan
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I experienced something like that at the last feast of our Lady of Guadaloupe. It was so powerful!! I’ll never forget. Those drums were appropriate and proper for that liturgical setting.
Remember Psalm 150
Praise the Lord!
Praise God in his sanctuary;
…praise him in his mighty heavens![a]
Praise him for his mighty deeds;
…praise him according to his excellent greatness!
**Praise him with trumpet sound;
…praise him with lute and harp!
Praise him with tambourine and dance;
…praise him with strings and pipe!
Praise him with sounding cymbals;
…praise him with loud clashing cymbals!
**Let everything that has breath praise the Lord!
…Praise the Lord!
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Sarabande
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That’s a good point. It’s why I do think specifics should be along the lines of area and culture, but we don’t even have that. Where I live we still have a lot of ethnic parishes - Italian, Irish, Polish, Ukranian, German, Hispanic, African-American, etc. The practices of each of these ethnic parishes, including the usage of music is slightly different or really different depending on the ethnicity of the parish. I would agree with you that having the local ordinary figure out what works best for each, but I still think a guidelines of specifics is important. Now, where have more of a conglomeration of Catholics of various ethnicities and not really a “culture” is where it can become a little easier… or little more difficult, depending on how you look at it. Would it be liturgically appropriate to bring the music, instruments and practices of Filipino Catholics within an African-American parish, a European-Caucasion parish or a typical melting pot parish, which has no real connection with that particular culture or practices. None of that music and instrumentation are of “long-standing” usage within those particular communities, even if they may be for Filipino Catholics. I think for that kind of example , it would be easier to have the specifics laid out so that a music director or pastor can’t just make a decision like that.
This where I disagree slightly. For the particular example I gave with the wedding, the guests/congregation actually had no problem singing the “Jesu, Joy of Man’s Desiring” along with the classical guitar playing, that was very similar to the recording I posted. It was a small group, though, about 150 or so guests, so that kind of playing works well for more intimate congregations. For a larger group, it more than likely would not work well. You need something with more “beef” to support a larger congregation. So, I believe that just because something sounds better, doesn’t automatically make it more about human achievement, especially if the congregation is singing well.
Oh, yes, I agree with this. That is something that can be easily rectified, though. That said, it also depends on the congregation. Because I freelance, along with my regular church jobs, I have the opportunity to see what goes on in many different parishes. Some parishes thrive on overpowering organ playing. The sing so much better, blowing the rooftops off, than when the organist plays in a more subdued manner. Then there are others where people will just stop singing when an organ plays with the gusto that other parishes love. In addition, I’ve also found that organists who have had a lot of their experience in more mainstream, Protestant churches, tend to play the organs louder. Having also freelanced for those services, I believe it is because the organ has to support the passion in which our Protestant brothers and sisters put into their singing. They are just better at singing and think something is wrong when the organist isn’t “pulling out all the stops”. It is a learning curve for some organists who go from a Protestant church to a Catholic one and having to learn that not all Catholic parishes appreciate the “boom” of the organ. lol!
I think you are doing a great job where you are, pnewton, and completely understand your reasoning. I’m a practical person and I know from the literally 100+ parishes I’ve ever cantored in along with the 100+ church musician colleagues I’ve worked with, every parish have so many dynamics, which can make it easy or hard. Ok, off to singing work!!In the end, I guess I am just a believer in teaching principles rather than rules. Yes, it confuses some, but I think it is usually a problem only when someone has a strong opinion about what they like, or what they think is right for music. In such a case, I think music is scarcely the most important problem, but a symptom of a problem. My solution is always simple. Take the baton, metaphorically.
I keep thinking as often as I have said this that someday someone with a really strong opinion will take me up on this just to make a point. This is my Brer Rabbit gambit. So, the weather is nice here. Anyone want to move to an obscure corner of the SE Texas?
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pnewton
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I have yet to get used to this Catholic thing of not singing. My parish is heavily Hispanic and they mostly sing. However, I have been places where I was one of the minority singing, to say nothing of actually* singing*, if you know what I mean.. Then there are others where people will just stop singing when an organ plays with the gusto that other parishes love. In addition, I’ve also found that organists who have had a lot of their experience in more mainstream, Protestant churches, tend to play the organs louder. Having also freelanced for those services, I believe it is because the organ has to support the passion in which our Protestant brothers and sisters put into their singing.
I once heard someone say that since Protestants do not have the Eucharist, their adoration of God must take a different path for that reason alone. I can see where this might be true. There is an emotional content to most Protestant praise music. Personally, even back then, I preferred the intellectual content of the great old hymns.
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Cat
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I usually agree with you, pnewton, but I must disagree this time.
Two years ago, I started organ lessons with a master organist who has 50 years of experience playing organ in the Catholic and Lutheran churches. He writes examinations for the AGO, and teaches at workshops around the world. He spent some years in France, and has played at Notre Dame (in France, not Indiana).
Here is a description of the technique for accompanying congregational singing that he has taught me.
The registrations are set for each verse according to the words of each verse. A verse about the might and power of the Lord God Almighty requires not only the principals, but also the brass. A verse about the joys of heaven might make use of flutes and strings. Each verse is different.
And all the accompaniment is powerful, which also usually means loud. Not always; the soft hymns are ethereally beautiful and winsome. But always, ALWAYS, the organ leads the people and tells them what kind of hymn they are singing and how they should be singing it.
This is so different than the piano (my instrument of expertise), which accompanies the people, but usually doesn’t lead.
I absolutely LOVE attending a service (usually Lutheran) where my teacher, or another organist of equal ability, plays the hymns on the organ!!!
The accompaniment usually includes an introduction that is not just the last few measures of the hymn, but is actually a small “solo”, including improvisations, melismas, and fanfares, all leading up to that tension-filled 7th chord that tells the congregation, “OK, everyone, take a deep breath, it’s time to SING!”
The congregation sings the first verse, and between each verse, there is often an improvisation, utilizing the basic melody of the hymn. Often there is a modulation up to a brighter key.
During the final verse (depending on the hymn), as many stops are out as possible, and the organ is loud and magnificent, often to the point where the very pews and floor vibrates and the congregation can FEEL the music in their bellies. (Remember, in the olden days, the stomach was considered the “center of emotions” of a human being.)
From what I have seen, this kind of magnificent organ accompaniment does not overpower the singing at all, but instead, encourages even an elderly and recalcitrant congregation to sing the hymns and liturgical responses with all their very hearts and souls! The joy of the hymn is obvious on the faces and in the body language of the singers, who stand at attention, holding their hymnals open and high, and singing with gusto and strength.
It’s almost like a duet–when the organ plays well, with strength, the people sing well, with strength.
I have to say it–I miss this kind of singing in most Catholic parishes, although I HAVE heard it. When I attended Mass last summer at the Shrine of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Wisconsin, the organist played just like my teacher, and the congregation sang with strength–you could see it in their body language! No one was standing there with a closed mouth and eyes! No shy “Catholic singing” from these people!
And a few weeks ago, I heard that strong singing in New York City at St. Patrick’s Cathedral, where the organist was amazing! Keep in mind that many of the people in the Masses at St. Pat’s are not English-speaking. But we all sang with joy as the organ powerfully led us in the singing. Because of the construction, we couldn’t see the cantor at all, but we didn’t need a song “leader.” The organ led us, and supported us.
BTW, I can’t play well enough to provide this kind of accompaniment on the organ yet for Masses, but it’s the way I learned to play the piano for congregational singing. Many of the people in my parish tell me that they love when I play for Masses because everyone sings! I support them by playing loudly enough that they have the courage to sing out–they know that the piano will be there for them. I do hope that within a year or so, I will have more skill at playing organ for congregation singing. It’s easier for me to play Bach on the organ than accompany singers.
I think what we all need to keep in mind is that there is a reason that the organ is called the “king of instruments.” An organ, especially a pipe organ, is not wimpy or soft or quiet (although it can be). It’s magnificent. IMO, it is ridiculous to “hold a pipe organ back” during any aspect of the Mass, especially the congregational singing. A well-played, creative (improvisations, fanfares, constantly-changing registrations, etc.) powerful, organ accompaniment will produce well-done, joyful, and strong singing from the congregation. I think an organist who plays weakly so that they won’t overpower the singing will learn, to their dismay, that weak playing produces weak singing.
Perhaps other organists/pianists can comment on this post.
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Cat
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I wish I did “know the organ” better.
Sometimes I get the feeling that Catholics, at least on CAF, don’t really know what they want when they talk about “pipe organ” music.
I hear the Catholics on CAF complaining about “Protestant” music, and yet, surely it was the Protestants, mainly the Lutherans, who developed the kind of magnificent organ accompaniments, preludes, and postludes, that I described in my post. Bach, after all, was a Protestant!
So isn’t much of what we think of as really good pipe organ music really “Protestant” music, and therefore, no more worthy of the Mass than “Protestant” contemporary music?
I truly don’t get this. I think many Catholics are not sure what they want when it comes to music. They want chant, but no one is stepping up to learn it or teach it well. They want the organ, but they enroll their children in football rather than piano/organ lessons. They don’t want hymns and they don’t want contemporary music, so they extol the beauties of a music-less Mass, which is NOT at all what Holy Mother Church has proclaimed as the ideal Mass! I thought that the “ideal” for the Mass was a completely sung Mass–all music! Why are we pulling away from that?Could it be that we just want “less” Mass–a half-hour rather than an hour?
It’s almost like we want a magnificent Mass only when we do that once-in-a-lifetime pilgrimage tour of Rome–THEN we want chant and organ and the whole thing.
But not in our local parishes. We won’t pay for it. We won’t sing when the musicians play. We don’t like anything that the musicians do. We don’t believe in instruments other than the organ, but we don’t learn how to play and we don’t put our children and grandchildren into organ lessons. We won’t bother to learn chant or search for musicians who do know chant and are willing to teach it. Again, we won’t pay for any of it.
I know this is a rather bleak view of music in the Mass. I apologize. It’s the way I’m seeing things, at least here on CAF.
A few weeks ago, in our parish, there were no musicians for a Mass (my husband was ushering I was working). Of course, many of the people were thinking, “Woo hoo, now we’ll be done sooner!” But the priest surprised everyone by saying, “No musicians. Great! Now I can preach a longer homily!” And he did! Ha ha! (It was a very good homily, according to my husband.)
Is THAT what we want?
But…the Evangelical Protestants have longer homilies (sermons) and STILL have great music and lots of it in their worship services.
Are Catholics really so lazy spiritually? Do we really hate being in the House of God that much? If Evangelical Protestants are truly in danger of hell because of not being Catholic, then why are they so eager to spend so much time worshipping God and learning about him, while Catholics chafe because we sing more then two verses of a hymn?
Perhaps I am confused as to the timeline of organ music in churches. I’ll ask my teacher this week for a short outline of organ literature and the development of liturgical organ music in Christian churches. He’ll know.
Also, there is a lot of opining here on CAF about the lack of organ music in the parish Masses, but surely we all know that most parishes can’t afford to have the caliber of organ music that is routinely done at a National Shrine or a St. Patrick’s Cathedral (labelled as “the World’s Cathedral” when we were in New York–cool!).
It’s just too expensive for most local parishes. The organist who routinely plays a Bach prelude and a Vierne Postlude, and does intros and improvs during the hymns has to put in a lot of practice, and has to be paid well enough to make a living. Usually that kind of organist is also on the faculty of a university, which makes it possible for the diocese to pay him/her less.
If a parish is in a big city that attracts tourists, or is in an area with a large university with a thriving organ program, then that kind of music will no doubt be possible. My suggestion is that Catholics who crave the kind of magnificent organ music that I described, and don’t have any chance of ever getting it in their own local parish, should seriously consider a move to a city with a parish that offers that kind of music. IMO, a move would be better than spending the rest of your earthly life miserable and frustrated over your “banal and inane” parish guitar music. Suffering through music can really hurt the soul and shrink up the heart until it becomes hard to praise God and love man.
OTOH, I think a more realistic approach for most of us is to learn to appreciate any music in Mass sincerely offered by a devout Catholic musician, even the “banal inane” guitar music.
I hope this post gives us all something to think about.
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27lw
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I think it is certainly possible to have less-expensive music that is not banal. You are right, good organists / choir directors are expensive. I think part of it is the fact that the a lot of music is on a downward spiral: the music is bad, people leave, less money in the envelopes, less money in general. I realize people leaving the Church (or a particular parish) is more complex than just the music, but I am sure that it contributes. I wonder what would happen if high-quality musicians were hired, and a commitment was made to high quality music? Maybe more parishioners would follow…
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Cat
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By jove, I think you’ve got it!
You ask how much “bad music” contributes to people leaving any given church. After 47 years in the Protestant church, I can tell you that in the United States, music is often a MAJOR issue, and I’m sure that it is often an issue for Catholics, too.
In the United States, music is not just something we listen to. It’s something that we are.
Throughout the Laura Ingalls Wilder “Little House” books, the common thread is “Pa’s fiddle” music. In fact, at the Laura Ingalls Wilder museum in Mansfield, Missouri, the most revered item is “Pa’s fiddle.”
I realize that to those for whom religion is “Jesus,” it’s utterly incomprehensible that mere music can cause other people to flee the house of their Savior and Lord, Who gave Himself for them on the cruel cross of Calvary. People with faith in Jesus find this behavior unacceptable. I’ve often read comments by these people on CAF to the effect of, “Well, if music is more important to people than Jesus, then they may as well leave.”
Really? REALLY?? Now think about that. And then go read James 5: 19 and 20.
Hey, I agree with those faith-filled folks–if we have to choose between Jesus and our music, we had better choose JESUS! Frankly, I would go to the place where Jesus is Truly Present if I had to listen for the rest of my life to the worst music in the history of the world (which, IMO, is probably chant–sorry, traditional-leaning Catholics!)
I can’t imagine why any Catholic would walk away from Jesus in the Eucharist just because they want to hear better music!
BUT…many people don’t have a deep faith and understanding of Jesus, and we simply have to realize that and accept these people where they are and not be all highty-tighty-mighty and condemn them to hell because they like music better than Jesus. But for the grace of God, we might be as they are.
If they don’t have faith and need the music to be able to get to the place where they have faith, then we should give them music! What’s the alternative? They walk away from the Catholic Church. **Are we willing to watch people walk away from the Catholic Church and the saving Presence of Jesus Christ because we are unwilling to make a commitment to high-quality music and hire high-quality musicians?
**
I personally think that Jesus will hold us accountable if our actions are part of the reason why people leave the Church. Considering that Holy Mother Church has not expressly forbidden any style of music (other than blatantly secular music) and allows bishops to use their Holy Spirit-given discernment to decree which musical styles and instruments are allowed in their diocese, it would seem that parishes have all kinds of options to have high-quality music that will keep people coming through the doors and coming to Jesus.
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