A
- Status
S
sidbrown
Guest
It seems a bit odd to bring in quantum field theory when you are speaking of a spiritual soul, because quantum field theory is about physical matter. And anyway, according to Geoffrey Chew quantum field theory is bankrupt and the essential quantity to consider is the S-matrix built around a scaffolding of Feynman diagrams. Further there is the problem of incorporating general relativity into the QFT picture. To sum up, quantum field theory, being a theory of elementary particles, is not appropriate here, nor is it the latest up to date theory that anyone would want to talk about. Everyone is talking about superstrings these days.
M
Moonstruck888
Guest
Superstring Theory is unprovable bunkum.
I am merely trying to assess the level of knowledge that people who believe in this “soul” field, or whatever it is actually have on it.
They have none. No one can give me one quantifiable piece of data on the soul.
R
reggieM
Guest
The argument is that the mind/soul is immaterial. We can observe effects of the soul in the power of the brain, which transcends the physical capability of the brain.
To now ask for quantifiable data on the soul doesn’t make sense in this context. If it is true that the soul is an immaterial entity, then it cannot be quantifiable since it has no material quantities.
Again, we observe that the intellect is capable of generating a potentially infinite number and kind of thoughts. The brain has a finite physical-capacity for referencing that infinite number. So, the mind/intellect must be immaterial or unquantifiable.
Or we could look at the question of storage and I’ll reference your previous comments:
That’s not that bad an example. But there’s no reason to limit it to a year.
You have a hard disk and you’ve continually loaded films on it every second of every day for your entire life. You don’t know if it is 10% full or 1% full.
That is evidence. You can make the factual statement: “It has not yet been filled”.
Now, “should I assume that it will never be filled”?
Two points follow:
- You have a magical hard disk which is filled that much but you “don’t know the capacity”. By now, it’s more than reasonable to assume that “this is not an ordinary hard disk”. Where did it come from? How could it have as much capacity as it does?
If you have no answers to these questions, it opens up far more possibilities.
We have to question the science which is incapable of assessing the storage capacity of a hard disk. Is that science adequate to the task? - It’s not that you have to assume that it is infinite, necessarily, but you have to assert:
“It is possible that it will never be filled”.
It has never yet been filled. You don’t know if it is even 1% full.
Therefore, it is possible that it’s an infinite capacity. That possibility cannot be ruled out.
Hypothesis: the mind has an infinite storage capacity.
Test: Observe data entering the mind and retrieved over lifespans - no limits found
How to falsify: Observe limit to amount of data the mind can process or store
Current status: Hypothesis not falsified
Conclusion: At present, the hypothesis that the mind has an infinite capacity is a reasonable conclusion based on the data.
M
Moonstruck888
Guest
Prove that it is not the brain that generates the power. Prove it or admit that you cannot prove it.
Qualitative is poor quantatative. If you cannot find quantifiable data on what the soul is then you hypothesis is falsified straight out of the gate.
We observe nothing of the kind. You can’t even tell me what the intellect or the soul are, let alone whether they can do infinite anything. First, define in verifiable terms what intellect is and what, in verifiable terms the soul is, and then we’ll talk about their capacity.
I don’t know what the intellect or the soul are, so unless you can explain to me in verfiable / falsifiable terms, I’m afraid I have to conclude that you don’t know either and that this conversation serves no purpose.
There is no reason whatsoever to assume the brain is “magical” whatever that may mean. The brain is physical.
It is possible that the Universe has the topology of the Hockenheim racing track. It is possible that there’s a Pink Unicorn munching grass on my back lawn. It’s possible that there’s a Gibson Les Paul Custom sitting at the bottom of Valles Marineris.
Possiblilities do not qualify as evidence, solid or otherwise.
Nor can it be ruled in.
Wrong.
The only conclusion that can be drawn from this that is remotely realistic is that we do not have enough data for a meaningful answer and must suspend judgement.
S
sidbrown
Guest
Goeffrey Chew has said the same thing about quantum field theory. So it does not make sense to invoke either theory when talking about the human soul.
M
Moonstruck888
Guest
Quantum Theory is supported by evidence… Superstring Theory is not.
R
reggieM
Guest
If you cannot find quantifiable data on what the soul is then you hypothesis is falsified straight out of the gate.
What kind of quantifiable data would you expect to find on an immaterial entity?
If you’re saying that you can’t discuss what the intellect, mind or cognition is because you don’t know – then I can accept that. This is a topic in which you cannot form an opinion.
As above, this exempts you from this kind of discussion. There are enough philosophical and scientific papers that explore the capability and origin of the intellect, so I’ll guess that somebody knows what those powers are.
On what basis?
As above, on what basis do you think it’s possible?
I can accept that you don’t think you can make a meaningful contribution to the topic.
M
Moonstruck888
Guest
S
sidbrown
Guest
Do you know the difference between Quantum theory and Quantum field theory? Before you were talking about quantum fields, now you are talking about quantum theory which in physics nomenclature is called quantum mechanics.
Do you know the difference between first and second quantisation schemes and how they relate to the theory?
R
reggieM
Guest
A
awatkins69
Guest
Precisely.
M
Moonstruck888
Guest
Yes, I do know the difference. I’m merely trying to keep the physics parlance simplistic because most of the people who use this forum are not physicists.
The Standard Model would be an example of a relativistic Quantum Field Theory.
Yes I do. What the hell does that have to do with how the human brain interacts with the immortal soul?
Or are you merely prevaricating like everyone else on this thread?
Now will you answer my question. What quantifiable data can you give me on the interaction between the human body and the soul?
S
sidbrown
Guest
You have answered your own question.
M
Moonstruck888
Guest
Rubbish. I asked if it was a quantum field that joined the human body to the human soul.
The second question that you have quoted was in response to this:
Which is totally unrelated to this:
You asked me for specific details regarding quantum fields, knowing that I would call you out on prevaricating. I admit I should have spotted your ploy and not risen to the bait. That was a silly lapse of concentration on my part.
You now seek to trick me like an oily lawyer, presenting this ridiculous straw man argument.
You have not answered my question, you are having to resort to being deceitful and dishonourable because you are backed into a corner and don’t want to lose face by admiting that you can’t answer my question because it doesn’t have an answer.
There is no soul. There are no supernatural beings. Thought is an emergent phenomenon of electrochemical activity in the brain. You know it and I know it. Why won’t you just admit it?
S
sidbrown
Guest
Here is the question:
Here is my answer:
I was going to give this answer, but you gave it first. That would be my answer to your question.
Now you point out that you gave that answer to the question: “Do you know the difference between first and second quantisation schemes and how they relate to the theory?” which is related since the second quantization schemes are used to quantize the fields in quantum field theory, which was the topic of your original question.
M
Moonstruck888
Guest
No, it was not the topic of my original question.
My original question was what kind of field connects the human body to the human soul, is it a quantum field? If not what is it, how does it propagate and through what medium?
Now,here’s what you have done?
Question: Do you use a car to get to work?
Your response: Do you understand the connection between the camshaft and rocker arms?
My response: What does that have to do with whether or not you use a car to get to work?
Your reponse: Exactly!
Now, how about you just answer the question without trying to wriggle out of it?
S
sidbrown
Guest
I have given you the answer already and rather than respond, you are engaging in ad hominem attacks.
R
reggieM
Guest
I agree on both points.
This individual already made it clear that he doesn’t want to discuss the topic.
J
JDaniel
Guest
Let’s take a look and see. First, with regard to storage, the human brain accepts and stores billions and billions, as Sagan used to say, of extremely sizable chunks of data. From the time of our births, and perhaps even before, our brains have been storing so much data that no super computer could ever compete. Why, because they are physical.
Think about it. Every nano-second of every waking day, ours brains are snapping and storing snapshots of incredible complexity. All stored in our relatively small foot-print brains.
You might want to use a bit of caution here. Remember, there is no such thing as an actual infinity. You might want to say, “potentially infinite.”
Again.
I think the brain has the capacity for a potential infinity of exigencies. We can always add one more. Nothing else known to man has this capacity.
I would make that surmise.
Well, it certainly has not considered the real “you” inside of our bodies. Remember gnothi seaton (sp). Know thyself. If everyone of us would make an effort to really get to know ourselves, we would understand that there is an entity within each of us, so to speak, that is not an emergence from matter. Matter only had an appetite for it. That “thing” is the soul. The existence of a soul is proof of God. For one thing, because new souls are being created every moment, at millions of times per second - and, I know I’m not doing it!
God bless,
jd
- Status