Intellectual reasons

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ontheway1

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In a recent talk to a group of young Catholics in Chicago, bishop Barron pointed out that many young people are leaving the church for intellectual reasons. https://cruxnow.com/church-in-the-usa/2018/01/04/bishop-barron-dont-water-christianity/
He is warning the church not to water down the Christian message because this forces the young to abandon Catholicism.

In contrast to this, a number of Protestant theologians and intellectuals have switched to Catholicism after studying all aspects of Catholic faith and tradition in which they have found compelling evidence for the truth of Catholicism.

Should the church take better care of our young and make the message more “intellectual”? It is the young, after all, who are the future of our church.
 
Yes, yes, yes, a thousand times, yes! I couldn’t possibly agree more with the bishop. And his Word on Fire ministry is a godsend in these respects.
 
I have seen Protestants swim the Tiber, and I have seen just as many Catholics join Wittenburg or Geneva. I don’t know what Bishop Barron considers as “watering down” the Christian message in the context of making it more intellectually appealing. Typically when I hear the term “watering down” it refers to preaching an antinomian lifestyle that ignores the law, but teaches the gospel. I don’t think the Church needs to add in philosophy to make the faith more intellectually engaging. Oftentimes, in our rush to embrace the philosophy of the day we end up being unfaithful to what Christianity actually teaches. I think what we need to do is engage the philosophy of the day (know what is being embraced, understand the epistemological issues of the day) so that we can engage the culture, illustrate where those philosophies may be in line with Christianity or where they depart from it, and proclaim Christ crucified subjectively for YOU (the audience you are addressing).
 
ontheway1 said:
Should the church take better care of our young and make the message more “intellectual”? It is the young, after all, who are the future of our church.
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Yes, because the world is increasingly and more noisily materialist and reductionist. Reducing everything to reason.
And ironically at the same time the secular world is literally insane, or “not well” in it’s thinking.

The Church needs to get it’s philosophical and intellectual tradition out and present it to our young people.
And that takes some serious catechesis…
 
By “watering down,” the bishop is referring to his own education/experience becoming a priest in the generation following the Council. He asserts that in the wake of Vat 2, the Catholic Church dumbed-down the education of the Catholic faith.

And he makes the further point that in today’s times, that’s not going to fly. Scientism is rampant in the wider culture, so is the “none” affiliation with religion. A smart presentation of the faith is needed.
 
Magnanimity said:
By “watering down,” the bishop is referring to his own education/experience becoming a priest in the generation following the Council. He asserts that in the wake of Vat 2, the Catholic Church dumbed-down the education of the Catholic faith.

And he makes the further point that in today’s times, that’s not going to fly. Scientism is rampant in the wider culture, so is the “none” affiliation with religion. A smart presentation of the faith is needed.
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Exactly! Bishop Barron has also said that a few good lessons in apologetics can be very helpful to young people. Young people are not born skeptics, but it is easy to shake their faith if they are confronted by a hostile culture and have no means of defending themselves.
 
ontheway1 said:
Should the church take better care of our young and make the message more “intellectual”? It is the young, after all, who are the future of our church.
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YES YES YES YES YES.

The children live in a world of scientism; of ‘Bill Nye the Science guy’ being seen as the voice of reason. A world where religious views that have been diluted are easily cast aside. A world of aggressive atheism.

The only way to counter this that I can think of is to introduce them to the Church intellectual tradition.
 
Peter Kreeft, a convert to Catholicism and prof. of Philosophy at Boston College has authored over 40 books on faith, Catholicism, etc. He does the “intellectual” heavy lifting without sounding too specialized. His prose is very readable and often entertaining. I can recommend him to our kids, if they still read books. If not, many of his brilliant lectures are on you tube. Highly recommended.
 
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I respect that not everyone is interested in nor find the intellectual aspects of the faith compelling. I also appreciate that knowing apologetics and the intellectual and theological aspects aren’t the same as having a deep prayer life, doing charitable works, or having a deep love of God and man.

But, in a world where scientism is ingrained in the pop culture… in a world with so many competing alternatives to Catholic Christianity, some with a much more plain text and, without deep engagement, seemingly “obvious” take than Catholicism presents… well… I think many people do go astray because they feel the faith is anti-intellectual, or that they don’ understand why Catholics believe and do what they do. They are bombarded with arguments against their faith, but aren’t equipped with the tools they need to counter them.

Better basic apologetics and theology, without everyone needing to be a scholar, would help. So long as we don’t neglect prayer and charity.
 
Wesrock said:
I respect that not everyone is interested in nor find the intellectual aspects of the faith compelling.
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Not only this, but many of the “intellectual” aspects of Christianity are quite complex, involving a knowledge of ancient Jewish practices, linguistic Semitisms, typology; and 2000 year old Palistinian, Greek and Roman cultures. That’s just for starters. Throw in biblical writing styles, Christology, history of the Church, the CCC, thousands of papal writings, and now your getting somewhere. Some of these things can be taught to teens in order to show them that Christianity can be intellectual, but where would they learn all this intellectual stuff. Most teens don’t go to Catholic schools.

I can’t really get behind Bishop Barron when he says that if a child can memorize the plot of Star Wars then they can learn all about our rich faith. That’s just a bad comparison. For children, our Faith has to start with the basics of compassion, mercy, patience, humility. Those are foundations which need to be focused on from childhood to high school.

Anyone on the internet can see that compassion, mercy and humility are lacking in the intellectual spheres whether they be Catholic, Nihilistic, or Scientific spheres. The Church does not need to try to out intellectualize the rest of the world in order to draw in young people. The richness of the Church and Christology are there waiting for them to discover whenever they decide to seek it, or should I say, whenever God calls them to seek it.
 
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ontheway1 said:
In a recent talk to a group of young Catholics in Chicago, bishop Barron pointed out that many young people are leaving the church for intellectual reasons. https://cruxnow.com/church-in-the-usa/2018/01/04/bishop-barron-dont-water-christianity/
He is warning the church not to water down the Christian message because this forces the young to abandon Catholicism.

In contrast to this, a number of Protestant theologians and intellectuals have switched to Catholicism after studying all aspects of Catholic faith and tradition in which they have found compelling evidence for the truth of Catholicism.

Should the church take better care of our young and make the message more “intellectual”? It is the young, after all, who are the future of our church.
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The revealed truth cannot be expressed intellectually in completeness.
 
I recall back in the years just prior to Vatican II, taking a freshman course in theology at a Catholic college in which F.J. Sheed’s book “Theology for Beginners” was the basic text. I thought that well, finally I can see how Catholicism all holds together. That, plus a course in the Philosophy of Being, helped maked intellectual sense of the Faith. I had the sense that the Church was on the verge of an intellectual and literary renaissance.

Wrong. Shortly afte the ending of the Council, catechesis took a nosedive into less than mediocrity, philosophy was deemphasized, and the intellectual tradition was neglected.

That has now changed. We have numerous gifted and popular apolgists and Catholic intellectuals. It is time for a turnaround.
 
Honestly, I think a key issue is declining faith in the Resurrection of our Lord. St. Paul warned us that “if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.”

Every single Catholic youth group across the country should be exposed to this documentary:
The Holy Winding Sheet: Exploring The Shroud of Turin

Also, we need to restore mystery and solemnity to the celebration of Holy Mass. Lex orandi, lex credendi!
 
1Lord1Faith said:
I can’t really get behind Bishop Barron when he says that if a child can memorize the plot of Star Wars then they can learn all about our rich faith. That’s just a bad comparison. For children, our Faith has to start with the basics of compassion, mercy, patience, humility. Those are foundations which need to be focused on from childhood to high school.
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I half-agree with you, and half-agree with everyone else.

Children need to be exposed to a balanced Catholic life as they grow.

When it comes to helping parents, we are only just now getting more information to pass on to our children. We need to have discipleship for everyone! We need challenging intellectualism, and we need inviting liturgy and celebrations, and we need a vibrant charity.

It’s not either/or. Our faith should enter every aspect of our lives.
 
Lex orandi, lex credendi is a good point. If we pray as if it doesn’t mean much, so will be our belief.
 
We have numerous gifted and popular apolgists and Catholic intellectuals. It is time for a turnaround.
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Do you think despite future and ongoing challenges, there is much hope and perhaps the Church will have a sort of renaissance in regards to things like catechesis and formation, hopefully for the better? Do you foresee a revitalization in the intellectual tradition and richness in the coming years and ultimately the Church will come out stronger? That said, I am not informed but from what I understand the time since the Council, well it doesn’t seem like it was the best of times, that said, didn’t the Council emphasize themes and messages that needed to underscored and thus the Council shouldn’t necessarily be abandoned completely especially if it meant well? Granted I don’t really know much but wasn’t there a reason for the Council and it had legitimate points as well?
 
Yes, I think the Church is primed for a revitalization. It has already started. The number of new apologists, programs, Catholic media, including radio, TV, internet, magazines, is much better now than pre-Vatican II.

The Council cannot be blamed for the catechetical mediocrity that followed, nor can it be blamed for some of the bizarre liturgical experimentation that went on. None of the Council Fathers said “Hey, lets dumb things down.” I recall having this discussion with several priests. They said that following most ecumenical councils there has been a pendulum reaction, first swinging wildly one way, then the other, eventually correcting itself. Things do settle down.
 
RCIAGraduate said:
from what I understand the time since the Council, well it doesn’t seem like it was the best of times, that said, didn’t the Council emphasize themes and messages that needed to underscored and thus the Council shouldn’t necessarily be abandoned completely especially if it meant well?
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VII brought much needed renewal to the Church. The entire Council, it’s documents and it’s legacy are a blessing to the Church. The renewal that the Council brought is still unfolding today. We are all privileged to witness it.

Things aren’t perfect, but VII isn’t to blame.
 
This appears to me to be one of those either/or problems that the Church in her wisdom frequently answers with: both/and.

And it doesn’t appear to me that Bishop Barron disagrees. I don’t see where he says we should cease committing corporal acts of mercy or cultivating a deep spiritual life at the expense of heightened intellectualism, he’s just reminding us not to forget it!
Bishop Barron:
While indeed “our whole life should be a kind of preaching,” Barron said, the statement attributed to St. Francis can become a problem when it is “used as a justification for a kind of pastoral reductionism,” for example, the idea that “what it all really comes down to is taking care of the poor.”

While caring for the poor is important, Barron said, this work “in and of itself can never be evangelically sufficient.”
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