Intellectual reasons

  • Thread starter Thread starter ontheway1
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Prior to Vatican 2, we had plenty of mystery and solemnity; we also had well better than 50% in the pews who were there to “fulfill their obligation”, and so were physically present in the Mass while they were piously saying their rosary or engaging in a novena; and others (primarily those who came in late, sat in the back, and left early) “did time”.

I am all for a reverent Mass, and have had the grace of 4 priests over the last 28 years, all of whom were reverent; we also have ahd 24 hour perpetual Adoration for most of that time.

What we need is more catechesis for those who attend, but often have a rather minimal understanding of the Mass. And I refer specifically to Dr. Brant Pitre as one who clearly, but without being pedantic, communicates what you reference. Would that we could get all our parishioners to attend his lectures.
 
This is probably one of the few occasions I can say that I don’t think the liturgy is relevant here. 😮

I myself was one of those (young) intellectual converts to the Church; I read my way into the Church at the ripe old age of 24. Since then I’ve most definitely cultivated a taste for well celebrated, theologically rich liturgy, but all of that came after my conversion, after I came to believe. The question here is: how do we get the youth to even understand that Catholicism is worthwhile to begin with?

Once I came to the realization that Jesus Christ was a real human being, that he is God, that he established a visible Church with a visible head, and that visible head has had successors all the way down to the current day, then the state of the liturgy mattered not one iota in whether I’m going to continue believing in the Church. I could be mad at the people in authority for the disarray the liturgy might be in. I might find myself in a bad predisposition at Mass, but none of that affects my belief in the truths I’ve received.

Even after the worst imaginable “clown Mass” (I understand this is more of a liturgical boogyman than a frequently occurring liturgical abuse, I’m just using it to make a point here) I wouldn’t ever walk away from that experience thinking I should leave the Church since it has no bearing on my intellect and the truths I’ve already received. Where should I go? Even in that clown Mass there are the words of eternal life.

What would tempt me to leave the Church is the suspicion that it isn’t true, and that would still be the case even if every Sunday was filled with loads of incense, polyphony, and Latin. In fact, I’d probably come to see all of that as superstitious nonsense if I had already come to the conclusion that the Church is likely false.

So where do we go from here? We teach why the dogmata of the Faith are sensible and reasonable. Yes this will involve some heavy lifting: a bit of philosophy (especially Thomistic!), a little bit of science, a little bit of history, and a little bit of hard hitting theology will need to be taught. We can lean a bit on experiential knowledge but not too much, otherwise we end up in the same relativistic mess the rest of the world is in (ala “I have my truth and you have yours”). At some point we have to be able to enunciate the truths of the Faith dispassionately if we really believe what we’re saying: that this is the truth, it’s matter-of-fact, it doesn’t care how we feel about it, and it independently exists whether we recognize it or not.
 
Vico said:
The revealed truth cannot be expressed intellectually in completeness.
Click to expand...
That’s not the point. The point is that faith and reason are integrated in a whole person. And when the culture comes at people with “enlightened reasons” to abandon Christianity, there ought to be answers, because good answers exist. And if we can’t articulate them, we are not transmitting the faith in it’s fullness.
 
This tradition has yet to trickle down to the parish level. Maybe the new generation of young priests can launch a revival.
 
ontheway1 said:
This tradition has yet to trickle down to the parish level. Maybe the new generation of young priests can launch a revival.
Click to expand...
I agree. If I had to characterize the general thrust of our catechesis it would be information aimed at generating experiences. Social justice and loving others is emphasized (as it should be) but it doesn’t draw people to stay with Catholicism because there’s just no reason. Literally.

Catechists can talk about Jesus, but when asked why it really matters to believe and have an explicit faith in Christ, there is a blank.

It’s important to have good reasons to continue in the faith. Our young people are told by the world that it doesn’t really matter what you believe, as long as you are nice to others. And that doesn’t work. If you are indifferent about what you believe, you will not find faith (response), you will become indifferent (unresponsive).
 
Last edited:
goout said:
40.png
Vico:
The revealed truth cannot be expressed intellectually in completeness.
Click to expand...
That’s not the point. The point is that faith and reason are integrated in a whole person. And when the culture comes at people with “enlightened reasons” to abandon Christianity, there ought to be answers, because good answers exist. And if we can’t articulate them, we are not transmitting the faith in it’s fullness.
Click to expand...
Yes. You posted “He is warning the church not to water down the Christian message”, so you must mean that that watering down is less “intellectual”.
 
Vico said:
40.png
goout:
40.png
Vico:
The revealed truth cannot be expressed intellectually in completeness.
Click to expand...
That’s not the point. The point is that faith and reason are integrated in a whole person. And when the culture comes at people with “enlightened reasons” to abandon Christianity, there ought to be answers, because good answers exist. And if we can’t articulate them, we are not transmitting the faith in it’s fullness.
Click to expand...
Yes. You posted “He is warning the church not to water down the Christian message”, so you must mean that that watering down is less “intellectual”.
Click to expand...
That wasn’t my post.
 
I think it’s a smart idea for the Church to tackle intellectual/logical difficulties some people have with the faith. It’s why I left as a kid in the early to mid-eighties. The key thing to remember is this:

There is not just one possible reason why people leave a particular faith.

In other words, there is no magic bullet that will keep people from leaving or to help bring them back. There are a lot of factors to consider, and intellectual difficulties are one of them. I read an article last week saying that the key to bringing back people is the EF Mass. Now that could help for some, but it’ll mean nothing to others. So long as the Church works on multiple fronts it has a chance to maintain membership.
 
There is a need to articulate the message of Christ to a young, educated audience. In my own situation, a 20 something young man, college student in STEM field turned atheist. There were several reasons. As he matures, there is a possibility that he will look at Catholicism again. But, the message has to be presented in a language which resonates with him. He is a keen observer and is turned off by our horrible music, ugly architecture and sermons that do not “speak to him”.
Yes, there are multiple factors that go into that decision, but the message is an important one.
 
Mike_from_NJ said:
I think it’s a smart idea for the Church to tackle intellectual/logical difficulties some people have with the faith. It’s why I left as a kid in the early to mid-eighties. The key thing to remember is this:

There is not just one possible reason why people leave a particular faith.

In other words, there is no magic bullet that will keep people from leaving or to help bring them back. There are a lot of factors to consider, and intellectual difficulties are one of them. I read an article last week saying that the key to bringing back people is the EF Mass. Now that could help for some, but it’ll mean nothing to others. So long as the Church works on multiple fronts it has a chance to maintain membership.
Click to expand...
And one of the problems Christianity has generally is fundamentalism has distorted Christ for many people. Many people do not reject the Catholic Church or Christianity, they reject a caricature of it. We can be our own worst enemy (look at the silly evolution threads going constantly with Christians who are just plain ignorant of basic science. That kind of distorted Christianity ain’t gonna win any friends. )
 
Last edited:
You’d appreciate The Thomistic Institute podcast. It features lectures by Dominican priests, professors, and other speakers on topics like faith and reason, science and belief, Church history, and all sorts of theological subjects. They give the talks mostly on college campuses and get a huge turnout from non-Catholics.
 
Yes, Another word for “watering down” would be “dumbing down”. I was trying to be polite. 😄
 
I don’t know…I honestly have mixed feelings.

The intellectual part of Catholicism is a big part of what got me in the door as a convert. It’s powerful…

However, I think of the first part Corinthians 13 which, to paraphrase, basically says if I understand all knowledge and mysteries, but do not have love, I gain nothing. I had a lot of work to do on this part of it all.

If you can the teach intellectual part without excluding others and you can, at the same time, teach compassion, charity, and patience, the intellectual part is great. I think sometimes this is easier said than done though.
 
Last edited:
Yes, it can be a great challenge. I’ve known people whose innate goodness was overwhelmingly apparent and obviously flowed from their Faith, which was not overly intellectual. Someone who is intellectual in religious matters and understands all the theology may be lacking in the presentation of that Faith to others in a practical way. Virtue has to be practiced as well as intellect.

But Catholicism has such a great intellectual tradition that there is no excuse for not handing it on while not neglecting true charity. It would be like trying to teach the love of chemistry while neglecting the periodic table.
 
how do we get the youth to even understand that Catholicism is worthwhile to begin with?
Click to expand...
By finding ways to teach that it is relevant to the teen’s life. This is a relatively new concept, and a difficult one to fulfill because it isn’t a “one size fits all”. Unless a kid can see the relevance to their own life, you lose them. It is the world we live in today.
 
Last edited:
I think that we do need to present the faith in a more intellectual matter. I have always been a huge reader, and the Church’s intellectual tradition is much of the reason I was baptised in 2009 at the age of 21. I think, that, a lot of the “advances” in psychology unfortunately causes many clergy to water down the faith. If all I heard was sappy talks about our feelings, I’d have never become Catholic.
 
A few more thoughts and questions…

-Are the majority of Catholics who leave the church (recently) leaving because of it not being intellectual enough or are they leaving because of the abuse scandals. I mean the drop off in attendance after the recent set of abuse scandals was completely noticeable in my parish.

-The Catholic church’s intellectual teachings are heavy, deep, beautiful, and sometimes complicated. At the same time the basics of Catholicism are simple. Could the intellectual teachings act as a barrier? Are they really necessary for converts?

-Who is going to train Catholics in en masse on the intellectual side of things? Do we make the formation of the priests and deacons longer?

-How do you reach places outside the US with this intellectual understanding, like the Amazon, where there are so few priests per Catholic?
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top