Intelligent Design

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buffalo said:
Fantastic example. Meaning is contextual which further requires a more defined key.
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But the point you are still missing is this: Meaning is contextual ALSO IMPLIES that there is an assumption of meaning.
 
kbachler said:
Sorry, it isn’t shown that natural selection is not a creative process.

You’re thinking: “Mutation occurs → creatures are selected for environmental fit.”

But it isn’t that simple. There is also:

(Existing gene pool) + (environmental change) → yields new environmental fit

And environmental change can be something large or something small, something geographically broad, or something regional.

This can be driven by expressing one gene over another, or one set of protein development over another. There is an interpretive aspect to natural selection, and within interpretation there lies room for “creative expression.”
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NS is a conservative process. This was my post in case you missed it.
Anyone following my posts know my claims. Evo supports denied it. (kbachler, rossum and others)

Well what have we here? An ardent evolutionary biologist agrees with me.

Interview WIth Lynn Margulis
And you don’t believe natural selection is the answer?

This is the problem I have with neo-Darwinists: They teach that what is generating novelty is the accumulation of random mutations in DNA, in a direction set by natural selection. If you want bigger eggs you keep selecting the hens that are laying the bigger eggs, and you get bigger and bigger eggs. But you also get hens with defective feathers and wobbly eggs. Natural selection eliminates and maybe maintains, but it doesn’t create. (just what I claimed)

and…

I was taught over and over again that the accumulation of random mutations led to evolutionary change — led to new species. I believed it until I looked for evidence. … (just what I claimed)

There is no gradualism in the fossil record… ‘Punctuated equilibrium’ was invented to describe the discontinuity. … (just what I claimed)

The critics, including the creationist critics, are right about their criticism. It’s just that they’ve got nothing to offer but intelligent design or ‘God did it.’ They have no alternatives that are scientific. (rossum agrees)

The evolutionary biologists believe the evolutionary pattern is a tree. It’s not. The evolutionary pattern is a web… (just what I claimed)

Now what does IDvolution posit?

Abrupt appearance
Complexity right from the beginning
Life is front loaded with information.
Stasis
With NS gone, show me what mechanism now adds new information.

The origin of biological information and the higher taxonomic categories - PROCEEDINGS OF THE BIOLOGICAL SOCIETY OF WASHINGTON

…Since natural selection can do nothing to help generate new functional sequences, but rather can only preserve such sequences once they have arisen, chance alone–random variation–must do the work of information generation–that is, of finding the exceedingly rare functional sequences within the set of combinatorial possibilities. Yet the probability of randomly assembling (or “finding,” in the previous sense) a functional sequence is extremely small.

…At several points in the previous analysis, we saw that natural selection lacked the ability to generate novel information precisely because it can only act after new functional CSI has arisen. Natural selection can favor new proteins, and genes, but only after they perform some function. The job of generating new functional genes, proteins and systems of proteins therefore falls entirely to random mutations. Yet without functional criteria to guide a search through the space of possible sequences, random variation is probabilistically doomed. What is needed is not just a source of variation (i.e., the freedom to search a space of possibilities) or a mode of selection that can operate after the fact of a successful search, but instead a means of selection that (a) operates during a search-- before success–and that (b) is guided by information about, or knowledge of, a functional target.
 
kbachler said:
The letter count is unchanged at 3. Pebbles, arranged as the letters SOS found in Springfield, IL.
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My bad - I thought you meant spell out Springfield, IL

So we can see that SOS can have different meanings depending on context.

That in fact shows the importance of the key. All codes need a key. The DNA language is a code.
 
kbachler said:
But the point you are still missing is this: Meaning is contextual ALSO IMPLIES that there is an assumption of meaning.
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Symbols, maps and language by their very nature are designed to convey meaning.
 
kbachler said:
Which again shows the fundamental flaw in your logic; the assumption that the pattern indicates design.
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Nope - a wave pattern in the sand does not indicate design and I never claimed it does. Nature produces patterns all the time. Natural patterns never include designs or symbols (show me one if you can)

Read carefully, this was my post:

“Patterns by themselves do not indicate design, but designs always contain patterns.”
Designs always originiate in the mind and are coded or mapped out.
 
buffalo said:
Ahhh - by the post I thought you meant that I passed on to my children 900 billion mutations.
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Difficult, there are only 3 billion base pairs in each of their genomes. 🙂
At the end of these 900 billion mutations we are still human.
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Correct. That is the nature of the nested hierarchy. We are still Hominidae. We are still Primates. We are still Mammals. We are still Therapsids. We are still Tetrapods. We are still Gnathostomes. We are still Vertebrates. We are still Chordates. We are still Deuterostomes. We are still Bilaterans. We are still Eukaryotes. We are still members of all those clades that our ancestors were members of.
Now what reality shows us that there is a growth of genetic defects in our children, requiring more care and cost. That points the arrow towards devolution.
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False. HbC reduces care and costs related to Malaria. Apo II Milano reduces care and costs related to heart disease. Many mutations do increase care and costs. Not all mutations do so.
Yu cn still red this sentenc - and know what it means.
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I can redo a lot of sentences and know what they mean. How does that prove anything?

rossum
 
rossum said:
Difficult, there are only 3 billion base pairs in each of their genomes. 🙂

Correct. That is the nature of the nested hierarchy. We are still Hominidae. We are still Primates. We are still Mammals. We are still Therapsids. We are still Tetrapods. We are still Gnathostomes. We are still Vertebrates. We are still Chordates. We are still Deuterostomes. We are still Bilaterans. We are still Eukaryotes. We are still members of all those clades that our ancestors were members of.

False. HbC reduces care and costs related to Malaria. Apo II Milano reduces care and costs related to heart disease. Many mutations do increase care and costs. Not all mutations do so.

I can redo a lot of sentences and know what they mean. How does that prove anything?

rossum
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That is why I asked for the source. I thought you “lost it”. 🙂

We are still designed purposeful life.
 
buffalo said:
NS is a conservative process. This was my post in case you missed it.
Anyone following my posts know my claims. Evo supports denied it. (kbachler, rossum and others)

SNIP
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I know it was your claim. I pointed out that I disagreed.
 
buffalo said:
My bad - I thought you meant spell out Springfield, IL

So we can see that SOS can have different meanings depending on context.

That in fact shows the importance of the key. All codes need a key. The DNA language is a code.
Click to expand...
And again you assume meaning.
 
buffalo

"Patterns by themselves do not indicate design, but designs always contain patterns."

Here is a painting of Jackson Pollock. You would have to say it was designed. But does it contain a pattern? :confused: Only if it is conceded that chaos is a kind of pattern?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lavender_Mist.jpg

This is the problem of Random Selection. If the whole world was created by Random Selection (throwing paints on a canvas and riding a tricycle around on them?) wouldn’t the whole world (and the whole universe) look something like Pollock’s painting?

But obviously the whole world does not look like this (except perhaps to a lunatic)!

Even the universe has a kind of symmetry of design. Is it mere random selection that all the galaxies are moving away from each other at accelerating velocities. Or does that particular symmetry suggest they were designed to move that way. In an case, they are certainly not all colliding with each other in a random search for pattern.
 
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