Intelligent design

[Bahman]

This has been answered in multiple posts by several posters. What don’t you understand of the answers provided?

OK.

Please read post #39.

 

[tonyrey]

Here is the argument that shows that everything behaves in deterministic manner from God point of view assuming omniscience in strong form:

1. God knows actions of all beings in creation in every given situations (omniscience)
2. This means that God knows the state of creation in a later time given the state of creation in earlier time since it know actions of beings in creation
3. This means that God knows the state of universe in every given time by knowledge of state of creating in its starting
4. This means that creation evolves in deterministic manner from God point of view.

As you can see I didn’t use that the knowldege of God causes an effect in the above argument.

You have asserted but not proved that:

1. This means that creation evolves in deterministic manner from God point of view.

Even we know many events that will occur but we do not cause them…

BTW God’s point of view = God’s knowledge!

 

[Bahman]

Even we know many events that will occur but we do not cause them…

I think the proof is complete.

Events in universe can be categorized into two parts: Either events are the result of laws of nature, like a fallen stone etc or they are caused by intelligent minds with free will. This means that we need a slight change in premise one to correct the problem:

1. God knows actions of all beings and movement of things in creation in every given situations (omniscience)
2. This means that God knows the state of creation in a later time given the state of creation in earlier time since it know actions of beings in creation
3. This means that God knows the state of universe in every given time by knowledge of state of creating in its starting
4. This means that creation evolves in deterministic manner from God point of view.

 

[tonyrey]

Even we know many events that will occur but we do not cause them…

But you admit you may be mistaken.

Events in universe can be categorized into two parts: Either events are the result of laws of nature, like a fallen stone etc or they are caused by intelligent minds with free will. This means that we need a slight change in premise one to correct the problem:

1. God knows actions of all beings and movement of things in creation in every given situation (omniscience)
2. This means that God knows the state of creation in a later time given the state of creation in earlier time since it know actions of beings in creation
3. This means that God knows the state of universe in every given time by knowledge of state of creating in its starting
4. This means that creation evolves in deterministic manner from God point of view.

You are still assuming that knowledge = causation. You need to explain **how **God’s knowledge compels us to act as we do - like robots. According to your hypothesis free will is an illusion and we’re not even responsible for our thoughts.

Do you really believe that? If you do you are implying that God cannot create persons who are responsible for what they do. This amounts to fatalism - and you might as well give up trying to do anything because you believe the future is fixed… “What is written is written”.

 

[Bahman]

But you admit you may be mistaken.

You are still assuming that knowledge = causation. You need to explain **how **God’s knowledge compels us to act as we do - like robots. According to your hypothesis free will is an illusion and we’re not even responsible for our thoughts.

Do you really believe that? If you do you are implying that God cannot create persons who are responsible for what they do. This amounts to fatalism - and you might as well give up trying to do anything because you believe the future is fixed… “What is written is written”.

I didn’t assume that knowledge equal causation. All I mean that given the sate of universe at given time, God knows/can determine state of creation in later time.

The consequence of omniscience on our free will is however serious as you have noticed that this reduce us to simple agent without free will since God simply knows our actions in every possible situations.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

I didn’t assume that knowledge equal causation. All I mean that given the sate of universe at given time, God knows/can determine state of creation in later time.

The consequence of omniscience on our free will is however serious as you have noticed that this reduce us to simple agent without free will since God simply knows our actions in every possible situations.

You can keep repeating that montra until the cows come home, it still won’t be true. We have given you logical reasons why it is not so, we have explained that your position is contrary to defined Catholic Dogma. Two to one, we win.

Linus2nd