Inter-Communion with Protestants

[GKC]

Right. But not for a long while. The last Germanic Pope was Adrian VI, who was Dutch and died in 1523. (Adrian was, by the way, a very good Pope, or at least showed promise of being one. J. A. Wylie’s History of Protestantism, a ferociously anti-Catholic 19th-century tome which initially whetted my interest in the study of the Reformation when I was a kid, called him a “gloomy fanatic,” which is Wylie’s way of saying that he can’t actually find any dirt on him.) The last Pope from what we now call Germany would appear to have been Victor II, who died in 1057. His successor Stephen IX (d. 1058) is counted as German, but he was from Lorraine, which is part of France today. See this helpful list from Wikipedia. The great reform popes of the mid-11th century were German, and I guess people got tired of Germans after that
it
Edwin

Far removed they might have been, but they count.

Adrian was the Pope who took the chair when Henry VIII hoped it might go to Wolsey. Not Italian, but not English. Next time, Wolsey lost to Clement VII.

GKC

 

[rinnie]

I just read an interview about ecumenism between Catholics and Protestants in Germany, with Bishop Karl-Heinz Wiesemann of Speyer (Catholic) and Martin Hein, bishop of Kurhessen-Waldeck (Evangelical). In this interview, they discuss how ecumenical dialogue has worked out between the two parties and what future they see for it.

Among the things talked about were the current situation, the accomplishments of recent years and the most pressing issues for the future. The two representatives observed that considerable headway had been made with the joint declaration on Justification and a few other documents.

Asked by the interviewer, who is of the Bishops’ Conference’s news site, whether they thought that shared Communion would be possible by 2017, the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation, the Catholic Bishop stated that he did not believe this was possible:

The Evangelical minister responded:

Concerning issues they thought needed to be addressed, the Catholic Bishop said:

The Evangelical side said:

The interviewer asked about what the two thought of the fact that some people speak of an “Ice age” in ecumenism. While the Catholic Bishop said he didn’t think such a term was appropriate in any way, the Evangelical bishop replied somewhat more critically:

Question
First, I invite comments on these statements.
Second, my question is: Does anyone think Inter-Communion will come some day?

It has to, but I don’t know if it will be on the last day or not.

Inner communion with Catholic’s and Protestants will never be possible simply because of the differences of the meaning of the Eucharist.

In the RCC if a person is in a state of sin they cannot receive communion, and mortal sin they cannot receive it until they go to confession.

If a Priest cannot let a Protestant enter into communion with no knowdedge of the Catholic teachings.

 

[Contarini]

It has to, but I don’t know if it will be on the last day or not.

Inner communion with Catholic’s and Protestants will never be possible simply because of the differences of the meaning of the Eucharist.

Then I guess you don’t consider Lutherans or Anglicans to be Protestants?

In the RCC if a person is in a state of sin they cannot receive communion, and mortal sin they cannot receive it until they go to confession.

That is, or was, a traditional Protestant principle as well, although the term “mortal sin” wasn’t used. 19th-century Evangelicals typically prepared themselves by weeks of prayer and fasting for the reception of Holy Communion.

If a Priest cannot let a Protestant enter into communion with no knowdedge of the Catholic teachings.

I understand that position–I even agree with it. But you need to understand that to many Protestants this is like saying “you can’t receive communion until you can explain accurately the difference between a Thomist and Molinist view of predestination.” In other words, the more ecumenical and/or pietistic evangelicals (by which I mean people who think it’s all about your relationship with Jesus and doctrine doesn’t matter that much) see most of the Protestant/Catholic differences as technicalities. What matters, in this view, is faith in Jesus.

I am myself torn between these two positions, which is one reason I’ve delayed so long in becoming Catholic, even though I was convinced that Catholicism is a richer and truer expression of Christianity than Protestantism many years ago. I accept the Church’s claims about what is binding dogma and what isn’t, but it also seems to me that the faith in Jesus shared by Protestants and Catholics is the fundamental basis, of which Catholic dogmas are the fullest expression. The idea of people differing on various doctrines receiving communion with each other therefore doesn’t seem absurd or shocking to me , although I accept the Church’s ruling against this.

Edwin

 

[Novocastrian]

I am myself torn between these two positions, which is one reason I’ve delayed so long in becoming Catholic, even though I was convinced that Catholicism is a richer and truer expression of Christianity than Protestantism many years ago. I accept the Church’s claims about what is binding dogma and what isn’t, but it also seems to me that the faith in Jesus shared by Protestants and Catholics is the fundamental basis, of which Catholic dogmas are the fullest expression. The idea of people differing on various doctrines receiving communion with each other therefore doesn’t seem absurd or shocking to me , although I accept the Church’s ruling against this.

Edwin

I feel very similarly to you.

 

[rinnie]

Then I guess you don’t consider Lutherans or Anglicans to be Protestants?

That is, or was, a traditional Protestant principle as well, although the term “mortal sin” wasn’t used. 19th-century Evangelicals typically prepared themselves by weeks of prayer and fasting for the reception of Holy Communion.

I understand that position–I even agree with it. But you need to understand that to many Protestants this is like saying “you can’t receive communion until you can explain accurately the difference between a Thomist and Molinist view of predestination.” In other words, the more ecumenical and/or pietistic evangelicals (by which I mean people who think it’s all about your relationship with Jesus and doctrine doesn’t matter that much) see most of the Protestant/Catholic differences as technicalities. What matters, in this view, is faith in Jesus.

I am myself torn between these two positions, which is one reason I’ve delayed so long in becoming Catholic, even though I was convinced that Catholicism is a richer and truer expression of Christianity than Protestantism many years ago. I accept the Church’s claims about what is binding dogma and what isn’t, but it also seems to me that the faith in Jesus shared by Protestants and Catholics is the fundamental basis, of which Catholic dogmas are the fullest expression. The idea of people differing on various doctrines receiving communion with each other therefore doesn’t seem absurd or shocking to me , although I accept the Church’s ruling against this.

Edwin

But see Edwin you have to understand why a Protestant cannot receive communion in the RCC. If a Priest lets them go up before God and receive the Holy Eucharist in a state of mortal sin they have condemned themself.

He has to protect them and hold the teachings of God.

To receive the Eucharist w/o sanctifying grace in your soul profanes the Eucharist in the most grievous matter.

So lets say a Protestant is having sex outside of marriage, goes up to receive commumion, look what they did.

1 cor 11 27-28 This is an absolute requirement the Priest is obligated by his oath to uphold.

Now how can a Protestant who lets say had sex outside of marriage. Thats mortal sin. How can he go to the RCC receive communion and be out of mortal sin when he refuses RCC confession?

Do you see now why it is shocking to the RCC?

Protestants do not understand that a Priest would LOVE nothing more then to give them Christ in the Eucharist. Priest LIVE for this.

But how can a Priest live up to his promise to God and let a Protestant profane the Eucharist.

And I can’t believe only Catholic commit mortal sin.

Do you see what I am saying.

Many People ask Father can I get communion, he smiles and says sure, but RCIA first!

Its his commitment to God as a Priest and the bible states it also.

 

[rinnie]

Also Edwin I don’t know enough about the Lutherans and Ang teaching to give you a fair answer.

But I believe they also cannot receive communion in the RCC. But I would have to check on that.

 

[GKC]

Also Edwin I don’t know enough about the Lutherans and Ang teaching to give you a fair answer.

But I believe they also cannot receive communion in the RCC. But I would have to check on that.

With a technical exception, you are correct. Generally, without special approval, on a case by case basis, they are not to receive.

Guests should follow the house rules.

GKC.

 

[rinnie]

With a technical exception, you are correct. Generally, without special approval, on a case by case basis, they are not to receive.

Guests should follow the house rules.

GKC.

Here is what I have learned.

Lutherans believe in Consubstantian, And reject Transubstantian.

Angelicans also reject Trans,

So thee are indeed although very slim differences they are just not the same teaching.

 

[Peter_J]

Now how can a Protestant who lets say had sex outside of marriage. Thats mortal sin. How can he go to the RCC receive communion and be out of mortal sin when he refuses RCC confession?

This is probably the easiest question I’ve answered all day: a Protestant in a state of mortal sin should not receive communion without first going to confession.

While we’re on the subject, a Catholic in a state of mortal sin should not receive communion without first going to confession.

 

[GKC]

Here is what I have learned.

Lutherans believe in Consubstantian, And reject Transubstantian.

Angelicans also reject Trans,

So thee are indeed although very slim differences they are just not the same teaching.

I fear you have been taught wrongly. As has oft been discussed here.

GKC

 

[rinnie]

Edwin I believe when you learn exactly why we do what we do, you are going to see that it is always in the best interest of everyone involved.

A huge reason I believe communion is (name removed by moderator)ossible is forgiveness of sins.

God told us to confess our sins.

If we were to confess them to God ourself and not to the Priests why did he give them the authority to bind or loose sin.

What would be the reason? If we were to go to God ourself. We are told to confess our sins to one another, and confess by word of mouth.

Also God gave the Priest the authority to forgive sin in his name or hold it bound. How can anyone know the mind of God to be sure it is held or forgiven?

By God telling the Apostles what you bind is bound and what you loose is loose tells us all sin is not forgiven. So unless you are told you are forgiven how can you go before God in the Eucharist when you don’t know?

Who can say they know the mind of God.

God promised us when we confess to a Priest he has authority from God to speak in his name.

So back to the point. How could a Protestant know if his sin is bound or loose. He would have to guess right? or claim to have the power to forgive sin in Gods name. or know the mind of God.

All sin is not forgiven, If it was sin could not be held bound.

 

[Peter_J]

Here is what I have learned.

Lutherans believe in Consubstantian,

I fear you have been taught wrongly. As has oft been discussed here.

GKC

I was thinking about pointing that out.

 

[GKC]

I was thinking about pointing that out.

Please. I’m weary. And JonNC is overworked.

GKC

 

[Peter_J]

.

 

[steido01]

Here is what I have learned.

Lutherans believe in Consubstantian,

NO.

And reject Transubstantian.

Lutherans reject ALL Aristotelian attempts to explain away the miracle that occurs at the Eucharist, including Transubstantiation and Consubstantiation. Lutherans believe Christ’s body to be truly and completely present once the Words of Institution have been spoken. How this happens and how our senses still perceive bread to be present - we acknowledge to be a mystery, and do not attempt to explain it. Some call our view Sacramental Union, though it could just as accurately be called “Sacramental Mystery.”

Angelicans also reject Trans,

So thee are indeed although very slim differences they are just not the same teaching.

Some Anglicans, yes.* Some* Anglicans, no. Search the boards for common Anglican beliefs. There’s a certain word that is commonly used to describe the beliefs held by Christians of that communion…

 

[steido01]

With a technical exception, you are correct. Generally, without special approval, on a case by case basis, they are not to receive.

Guests should follow the house rules.

GKC.

Would that others might understand this simple, simple concept…

 

[GKC]

NO.

Lutherans reject ALL Aristotelian attempts to explain away the miracle that occurs at the Eucharist, including Transubstantiation and Consubstantiation. Lutherans believe Christ’s body to be truly and completely present once the Words of Institution have been spoken. How this happens and how our senses still perceive bread to be present - we acknowledge to be a mystery, and do not attempt to explain it. Some call our view Sacramental Union, though it could just as accurately be called “Sacramental Mystery.”

Some Anglicans, yes.* Some* Anglicans, no. Search the boards for common Anglican beliefs. There’s a certain word that is commonly used to describe the beliefs held by Christians of that communion…

Motley.

I copyrighted it, for use in this sort of discussion.

GKC

 

[Peter_J]

With a technical exception, you are correct. Generally, without special approval, on a case by case basis, they are not to receive.

**Guests should follow the house rules.
**
GKC.

Would that others might understand this simple, simple concept…

Indeed, even some Catholics don’t seem to understand it. (I’m thinking of a semi-recent discussion about whether Catholic posters would go forward for communion in the Orthodox church, and not tell the priest that they are Catholic if he doesn’t ask.)

 

[commenter]

---

EARLIER:Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter J View Post
I was thinking about pointing that out.

Please. I’m weary. And JonNC is overworked.
GKC

LATER QUOTE=GKC;11360282]Motley.
I copyrighted it, for use in this sort of discussion.
GKC

Hopefully GKC and JonNC will never get too weary to participate in these sort of discussions! Granted it can be hard work, as their assigned duties are not just to communicate the facts. They need to refute the total inaccuracies and what is much harder, to clarify/refute/explain dangerous rants like mine who mix some truth with errors - innocent in my case. In my posts, gut feeling is considered satisfactory research, and 5 minutes on Wikipedia is scholarly ammunition for my opinions.

 

[GKC]

---

EARLIER:Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter J View Post
I was thinking about pointing that out.

Please. I’m weary. And JonNC is overworked.
GKC

LATER QUOTE=GKC;11360282]Motley.
I copyrighted it, for use in this sort of discussion.
GKC

Hopefully GKC and JonNC will never get too weary to participate in these sort of discussions! Granted it can be hard work, as their assigned duties are not just to communicate the facts. They need to refute the total inaccuracies and what is much harder, to clarify/refute/explain dangerous rants like mine who mix some truth with errors - innocent in my case. In my posts, gut feeling is considered satisfactory research, and 5 minutes on Wikipedia is scholarly ammunition for my opinions.

Ah, shucks.

Sometimes I’m wrong, remember.

GKC