Inter-faith relationship

[whatevergirl]

Though I strongly disagree with marrying one with the expectation that your witness is going to cause them to convert.

We shouldn’t marry someone with the hope of having them change. You should be content and satisfied in the person they are currently - in converting, you would only love them more - but not expect the conversion. What if it just never happens?

To marry someone and hope they change is setting yourself up for a rocky marriage.

True, but you would go into with not having the expectation–their conversion would be of their own will. I definitely have seen it not work, more than it’s worked.

 

[jrabs]

First a good debating partner is one thing; a good spouse is an entirely different thing. People joke that the first thing you learn to say when you get married is “Yes, dear,” but it is a fact that married people do have to agree on things.

Second, the kids are going to be home a lot more, and listening to Mum and Dad a lot more, when they are little. When they get older, they’ll be out of the house a lot more, so the foundation has to be laid strongly when they are little. If all they hear when they are little is Mum and Dad debating religion, they’ll grow up to think that it’s okay to disagree with the Church.

outstanding post!

Debates on wall color - now that is a debate.

It is not beneficial to have children hearing religious debates. As a parent, I know it is confusing for kids - lived it. This does not help make them strong Catholics - it creates people always questioning faith.

There is a time when we must teach our children the unwaivering faith. They must see from our examples as parents - unified parents.

 

[jrabs]

True, but you would go into with not having the expectation–their conversion would be of their own will. I definitely have seen it not work, more than it’s worked.

I bet that many people enter into the marriage hoping that love will cause the other to convert.

It is so easy to enter into marriage hoping that he/she will change something - beliefs, drinking, gambling…whatever. It happens all the time -thus we have such a high rate of divorce.

That’s why the best scenario is to be unified at the start.

 

[Pro-Life_Teen]

First a good debating partner is one thing; a good spouse is an entirely different thing. People joke that the first thing you learn to say when you get married is “Yes, dear,” but it is a fact that married people do have to agree on things.

Second, the kids are going to be home a lot more, and listening to Mum and Dad a lot more, when they are little. When they get older, they’ll be out of the house a lot more, so the foundation has to be laid strongly when they are little. If all they hear when they are little is Mum and Dad debating religion, they’ll grow up to think that it’s okay to disagree with the Church.

I know people have to agree. But knowing how to talk out disagreements is also a good skill. There will be disagreements, people don’t always agree on everything, spouses included. Debates are structured disagreements giving each person a chance to form an answer and either win over, be won over, or agree to disagree for the time.

All they hear is religion being debated and they’ll think it alright to disagree? No, it isn’t alright to disagree with the Church as a Catholic. But to question if you have doubts and ask about the faith to get the answer, that’s allowed. If you have a viewpoint different than the Church’s and you talk about it and find the right answer, that’s fine. Obedience is part of being a Catholic, but there’s logic to everything. Asking about the logic isn’t hurtful.

That there are those that aren’t Catholic and have different rules than a Catholic is going to be realized. I don’t know about everyone else, but it never bothered my faith if you were a different religion and didn’t believe the rules. There was a point to that, you were a different religion. Never crossed my mind that you could change religions, either.

 

[whatevergirl]

I bet that many people enter into the marriage hoping that love will cause the other to convert.

It is so easy to enter into marriage hoping that he/she will change something - beliefs, drinking, gambling…whatever. It happens all the time -thus we have such a high rate of divorce.

That’s why the best scenario is to be unified at the start.

Good points–and I can’t say I disagree…which is why I probably chose to marry a Catholic. I guess perhaps this is how I think I’d react–given the OP’s situation–because it would be hard to end a relationship with an otherwise good person, who you love. But, in the long run (maybe even the short run)–I can see there being problems…as I’ve said above–friends and family who have married outside their respective faiths either ended up divorced over it, or really have problems. Very few cases have I seen personally in my own social circles–it working.

 

[richardsgirl]

Hi, thank you for the advice and prayers…

I had a conversation with my boyfriend tonight which got quite emotional… it’s difficult because I’m abroad in Moscow at the moment so discussing things over the phone can be so stressful. What we discussed was, me bringing up our children Catholic and what that would mean in practice - things like baptism, churchgoing on a sunday, bedtime prayers, teaching the basic doctrines of the Catholic church (obviously at a level they can handle), First Communion, confession, etc. I tried to cover all the bases and give him an idea of what it would ‘look’ like.

I think we finally came to an agreement but it was much tougher than I thought. I found out for instance that he gets a bit freaked out by church - all the ritual and solemnity of the Mass. He just kept saying that he felt ‘uncomfortable’ with it but didn’t know why… I suppose it’s because he was brought up in a non church-going family so it’s unfamiliar. And he was worried about me going over-the-top, talking about religion all the time to the point where my children were really bored or unhappy. I felt so offended that he would question my judgement like that, as if I am some cult member trying to brainwash through constant repetition.

He asked things like, what would I do if they suddenly said they didn’t believe certain things Catholics believe, or didn’t want to keep coming to Mass. Would I try to force them to? Would I be overprotective over issues like alcohol and not let them ‘make their own mistakes’? I got a bit confused as obviously, I dearly hope any children I have will not lose their way like that… although at the same time, questioning things and a bit of adolescent rebellion might be perfectly normal? I honestly didn’t know what to say, my instinct would be to insist on children coming to Mass as long as they were living at home. But he feels an approach like that would be unfair, and backfire. I guess he thinks I’m heavy-handed. But I can’t say for sure how I would react! He seems to think that I’d be very ‘Victorian’ in my approach, and also expressed concerns about being like the ‘Flanders’ family.

So, at the moment I’m feeling quite insulted that he thinks I’m this fanatic and doesn’t trust my judgement… But, by the end of the conversation he did seem to have agreed to my basic stipulations. It just really made me think though, about how stressful that disagreement would be to deal with in a marriage. And how I don’t want my sharing of the faith to be stifled… obviously, I’m not going to overburden young children with loads of doctrinal stuff or insist that they spend their whole time praying and studying the Bible! I would just use my common sense! Why is he so suspicious of it all?

I’m sorry for rambling, it’s really late here in Moscow (gone 3am…). I’ve just got all this stuff going round my mind. I love him dearly, we were going to get engaged in the summer; maybe we still will if we can truly work this out. Either way, it WILL be hard. I’m only just starting to realise how hard it could be.

 

[jmcrae]

I know people have to agree. But knowing how to talk out disagreements is also a good skill. There will be disagreements, people don’t always agree on everything, spouses included. Debates are structured disagreements giving each person a chance to form an answer and either win over, be won over, or agree to disagree for the time.

All they hear is religion being debated and they’ll think it alright to disagree? No, it isn’t alright to disagree with the Church as a Catholic. But to question if you have doubts and ask about the faith to get the answer, that’s allowed. If you have a viewpoint different than the Church’s and you talk about it and find the right answer, that’s fine. Obedience is part of being a Catholic, but there’s logic to everything. Asking about the logic isn’t hurtful.

That there are those that aren’t Catholic and have different rules than a Catholic is going to be realized. I don’t know about everyone else, but it never bothered my faith if you were a different religion and didn’t believe the rules. There was a point to that, you were a different religion. Never crossed my mind that you could change religions, either.

I’m betting both of your parents were Catholic.

A child who is born into a mixed marriage doesn’t see himself as “Catholic” - rightly or wrongly, he sees himself as “half-Catholic” and half the other thing. He is aware at some level that one day, he is going to have to choose between the two, and decide which one he wants to be - and as a byproduct, which parent he wants to disappoint. This isn’t about someone else’s rules in someone else’s house - this is one child trying to follow two sets of rules in the same house and at the same time.

A difference in religion is also not exactly a difference that you can “talk out.” It’s not like a discussion about what to have for dinner, or even a discussion about where to buy a house, where in the end, everyone agrees on something, in order to restore the peace.

 

[Pro-Life_Teen]

I’m betting both of your parents were Catholic.

A child who is born into a mixed marriage doesn’t see himself as “Catholic” - rightly or wrongly, he sees himself as “half-Catholic” and half the other thing. He is aware at some level that one day, he is going to have to choose between the two, and decide which one he wants to be - and as a byproduct, which parent he wants to disappoint. This isn’t about someone else’s rules in someone else’s house - this is one child trying to follow two sets of rules in the same house and at the same time.

A difference in religion is also not exactly a difference that you can “talk out.” It’s not like a discussion about what to have for dinner, or even a discussion about where to buy a house, where in the end, everyone agrees on something, in order to restore the peace.

Yes, both my parents are Catholic.

But my boyfriend’s a deist, so both sides are dear to me. A household that’s Catholic is ideal. I’m also Polish and we’re all basically Catholic by default. I’m not putting down Catholic households, I love my faith. But at the same time I can’t grasp the concept of turning people away, good people, merely because they were born into a different faith. More so, I can’t imagine breaking up with my boyfriend purely because he isn’t Catholic.

---

Richardsgirl, yeah, it is hard. Things come up, there are disagreements. Obviously more disagreements than if you shared a faith.

Pray about it is the main thing. Pray for guidance, strength and that everything works out well and how it should.

 

[deb1]

Would I be overprotective over issues like alcohol and not let them ‘make their own mistakes’? .

What did he mean by them making their own mistakes with alcohol? I hope that he doesn’t think that you should let your children break the law.

It sounds like you and your boyfriend also have issues with how to raise your future children.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

What did he mean by them making their own mistakes with alcohol? I hope that he doesn’t think that you should let your children break the law.

Or that he has interesting ideas about what the Church teaches about alcohol. I would be concerned with other misconceptions of church teaching.

Which kind of goes to a deeper question: if being Catholic is okay for the kids why isn’t okay for the non-Catholic? I guess I see being Catholic as a deep part of who I am as a person kind of like being a woman is who I am. Could I decide to not be Catholic? Perhaps, but I would be denying a lot of who I am and well, what/how I want to be…holy and in Heaven one day. I would be sad not being able to share this part of myself with a person that I need to trust with my body mind and soul.

 

[kage_ar]

But my boyfriend’s a deist, so both sides are dear to me. A household that’s Catholic is ideal. I’m also Polish and we’re all basically Catholic by default. I’m not putting down Catholic households, I love my faith. But at the same time I can’t grasp the concept of turning people away, good people, merely because they were born into a different faith. More so, I can’t imagine breaking up with my boyfriend purely because he isn’t Catholic.

.

One has to come to a personal “line in the sand”. This is right. While other beliefs may have some truth, it is NOT the complete total absolute truth.

2 + 2 = 4

That is truth. While some may say 2+2 = 3, someone else says the answer is 7 and others say it is 5,678,987. Some of the answers are CLOSER to truth, or contain a portion of the truth, they are not true.

Either the Catolic Church is true, it is the Church founded by Christ that has the fullness of truth or it is not. If you know it is true, and your Faith is the most important thing in your life, would you not want to build a life with someone who agrees with you on the single most important thing in life?

We must be careful of relativism - that what is true for me is not true for you because you are not Catholic. True is true, for all people and all time.

We can have friends and associates who have different beliefs, who maybe have some of the truth - but, do you really want to trust the eternal souls of your children to someone who does not share your Faith?

 

[deb1]

But at the same time I can’t grasp the concept of turning people away, good people, merely because they were born into a different faith. .

I don’t understand what you mean by turning people away. Your post are normally pretty clear so maybe I am just foggy from lack of sleep.

 

[Pro-Life_Teen]

If you know it is true, and your Faith is the most important thing in your life, would you not want to build a life with someone who agrees with you on the single most important thing in life?

We can have friends and associates who have different beliefs, who maybe have some of the truth - but, do you really want to trust the eternal souls of your children to someone who does not share your Faith?

I wanted that. Often I proclaimed I’d only date and marry a Catholic. Didn’t turn out the way I thought it would.

The second question is at least vaguely implying that any children between an interfaith couple has a special chance of being damned more than any other person. But yes, I would trust him. This isn’t a stranger on the street, the hypothetical is geared at my husband who would know how dear my faith is and would continue to teach the children their religious education.

 

[Pro-Life_Teen]

I don’t understand what you mean by turning people away. Your post are normally pretty clear so maybe I am just foggy from lack of sleep.

It is a bit vague, true. I see posts sometimes where someone is describing a fantastic individual with the only fault that I can pick up being that they aren’t Catholic and they are advised to break it off.

It is work, I know that from a logical view and experience. Some people can’t handle it. But I don’t think it should be an automatic deal-breaker that they don’t share your faith.

 

[agapewolf]

Richards girl…I did some chopping and emphasizing from your last post. Can you see some major red flags here?

I think we finally came to an agreement but it was much tougher than I thought. I found out for instance that ***he gets a bit freaked out by church - all the ritual and solemnity of the Mass. He just kept saying that he felt ‘uncomfortable’ with it but didn’t know why… ***

. And he was worried about me going over-the-top, talking about religion all the time to the point where my children were really bored or unhappy.

*** I felt so offended ***that he would question my judgement like that, as if I am some cult member trying to brainwash through constant repetition.

***my instinct ***would be to insist on children coming to Mass as long as they were living at home. But he feels an approach like that would be unfair, and backfire.

I guess he ***thinks ***I’m heavy-handed.

He ***seems to think ***that I’d be very ‘Victorian’ in my approach, and also expressed concerns about being like the ‘Flanders’ family.

So, at the moment ***I’m feeling quite insulted ***that he thinks I’m this fanatic and doesn’t trust my judgement…

But, by the end of the conversation he did ***seem ***to have agreed to my basic stipulations.

It just really made me think though, about how stressful that disagreement would be to deal with in a marriage. And how I don’t want my sharing of the faith to be stifled…

I would just use my common sense! Why is he so suspicious of it all?

.

There’s a lot of “seems” and “thinks”.

These have to become definite answers before you even consider marrying this guy. There was a post awhile back of a non-Catholic who agreed to raise the children Catholic, but once the reality got to her, she was re-thinking the whole thing.

I don’t remember if you mentioned if he was baptized or not. If he is not baptized, then your marriage will only be natural, not sacramental. And Sacramental marriages are hard enough with the grace that comes from the sacrament.

You say he gets freaked out by church and uncomfortable. If your Catholicism is at the core of who you are, then shouldn’t he be getting freaked “in a way” by you? If your faith is your driving passion in life, shouldn’t you be uncomfortable with him being uncomfortable?

Please understand I am making no judgements here. You don’t have to answer these questions to me, or on here…these are merely just questions to ponder in your discernment.

Remember, this will be a painful process no matter what happens, but if the pain happens now…whatever it is: long long discussions and arguements to sort it out, or a break up, it will be MUCH better now than later…which could result in divorce. That will be much more painful.

FINALLY at the end you made a definite statement.

you said that you don’t want your sharing of the faith to be stifled. I think that has to be your driving force in your decision making.

 

[richardsgirl]

I would say that no matter what you choose–just never let anyone come between you and the Eucharist. I tell my kids this (they are 11 and 15) – I tell them that some day you may choose to marry someone who is not Catholic…but, never let that person come between you and the Eucharist or your faith. I say this because I have seen Catholics convert to Protesant faiths out of pressure from the spouse.

Hi whatevergirl, thanks for your responses, I totally agree about not letting anything come between me and the Eucharist. I’m determined I’m not going to drift away from my faith or into something immoral. We have struggled a lot with chastity and other things in the past but now I’m going to regular confession and having strong spiritual direction and it’s helping so much! And Richard, my boyfriend is completely supportive which I think really says something for him…

These have to become definite answers before you even consider marrying this guy. There was a post awhile back of a non-Catholic who agreed to raise the children Catholic, but once the reality got to her, she was re-thinking the whole thing.

My feeling on this now I suppose is that we need to wait before getting engaged. We’ve been together almost two years and I would have loved to be looking forward to getting married soon, but these issues are only just now starting to really crop up, so we probably need to wait a while longer before making any official commitments . I’m still unsure on the mixed-faith marriage thing… I realise now how much better it is to share the faith and that this is going to be hard, but I really love my boyfriend and I’m just not ready to give up. I think if we can resolve our differences then we have every chance of making it work, if not, then as somebody pointed out, it is better to find that out now.

A question - does anybody have any good books on bringing up Catholic children? It seems kind of silly to need a ‘manual’ to do something like that but I was thinking it might really help me to clarify my thoughts on the matter and be able to give the best possible religious basis, plus I could then discuss things with my boyfriend more specifically. I want him to know what he is getting into, otherwise, like agapewolf pointed out, he might decide to back out later and that would be seriously bad news!

I do feel he has some misconceptions about the faith too which, if I can clear up, might really help him to accept it (in me/ future children). At the moment, he’s got this image in his head that he’s a bit frightened of, maybe sometimes I am to blame for that for not knowing, practising or communicating my faith as well as I could… The two books I would like him to read as ‘Catholicism for Dummies’ (that’s not too insulting is it?! ) and ‘Unabridged Christianity’.

In answer to your question, no, he is not baptised but he is more interested in Christianity than he was before and open to the idea of getting Christened (probably Anglican). I would love that so much if he did, though I have not made it a condition of our getting married but I would greatly prefer to be in a sacramental marriage. Also I think it would be so useful for him to have some kind of religious instruction that would come with that and take some of the pressure off me! When you get baptised, does it have to be a massive public occasion or can it just be a private, low-key affair? I’m not sure how these things work but it might affect his decision somewhat, as he is shy.

 

[kage_ar]

A question - does anybody have any good books on bringing up Catholic children? It seems kind of silly to need a ‘manual’ to do something like that but I was thinking it might really help me to clarify my thoughts on the matter and be able to give the best possible religious basis, plus I could then discuss things with my boyfriend more specifically. I want him to know what he is getting into, otherwise, like agapewolf pointed out, he might decide to back out later and that would be seriously bad news!

The best manual is the Catechism of the Catholic Church. If parents are a daily living example, kids will learn in the very best way.

The Compendium is the CCC in q and A format, great for study - it is about $10 at your local bookstore, or you can read it online here:

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html

 

[jmcrae]

I can’t grasp the concept of turning people away, good people, merely because they were born into a different faith. More so, I can’t imagine breaking up with my boyfriend purely because he isn’t Catholic.

This isn’t about “turning people away” - this is about choosing who will be your second “you” in the world. Remember, the two shall become one.

Put another difference in there, and see how it comes out:

I can’t grasp the concept of turning people away, good people, merely because they were born into a different attitude towards money. More so, I can’t imagine breaking up with my boyfriend purely because he’s over his head in debt, and thinks he has a God-given right to welfare.

I can’t grasp the concept of turning people away, good people, merely because they were born into a different culture. More so, I can’t imagine breaking up with my boyfriend purely because he insists on throwing out the cutlery and eating only with chopsticks, and refuses to allow red meat into the house.

I can’t grasp the concept of turning people away, good people, merely because they’re slobs. More so, I can’t imagine breaking up with my boyfriend purely because he doesn’t throw out his garbage, do his dishes or laundry, or vacuum his carpets.

This is not about “judging” people. This is about making an intelligent decision about what you and your children can live with in your own house, every minute of every day for the rest of your life.

 

[1ke]

But people do have mixed marriages at times and make them work don’t they?

Define “works”.

If you mean “continues to exist in perpetuity” then yeah, it can “work” – many people make it “work” and stay married.

That’s not my vision for marriage.

Or do you just think the whole thing is doomed from the start?

I don’t look at it in terms of “doomed” or “not doomed”.

I look at it in terms of what I know **for me **is a non-negotiable item. Being unable to share my faith completely with my spouse would leave a hole in my soul that could not be filled. It would create a barrier in my marriage that I know I would never be satisfied with.

I’m not sure why people think they can have something like “non smoker” as a non-negotiable but when it comes to religion it’s like all of a sudden they think they are somehow being “judgmental” for requiring their spouse to be the same religion as them.

We all have our list of non-negotiables. I put religion on that list and it eliminated some otherwise very marriageable men from my life. That was my choice.

You have to make a choice-- one that is permanent. So, you have to ask yourself if it’s something you can live with or not… something you can make peace with or not… and something you are willing to chance when it comes to your children’s upbringing or not.

 

[1ke]

I can’t grasp the concept of turning people away, good people, merely because they were born into a different faith.

Everyone has their list of non-negotiables.

My list of non-negotiables included religion but included other things too-- smoking, drinking, education level, cultural background, values, and a number of others.

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with religion being a criteria, if not THE criteria, on a list of non-negotiables.