Inter-spiritual marriages

[RolandSmoke]

I met a filipino woman and we had a child out of wedlock.

It’s been a hell of a 2-years and I’m trying to honour her by taking her hand in marriage. I have married before but my ex was something of a succubus and prone to adultery. It wrecked and corrupted me into cynicism; gratefully the whole thing burned to the ground and we divorced.

Marriage really doesn’t mean much to me if I’m being honest; I’m doing this for her and our family which I love eternally. She agreed to have it in my country in a secular way but wants a second ceremony back in the Philippines and under her god, in a catholic church.

I take issue with this. I am tolerant of her belief but it is seriously encroaching on me now. To do this, I have to get an annulment of my first marriage which involves disclosing very personal information to people I do not know or trust, after which they’ll contact my ex-wife and ask for her take on it. It was never a catholic marriage and the whole authoritative body behind this is anything but spiritual. I resent it completely.

Love (to me) is meant to overlook this, so I know I could be more accommodating, but could the same thing not be said for her? I let her baptize my child because I am tolerant… I’m going way out of my comfort zone to remarry, something I never wanted to do again.

My question is this: Does it matter that I was ever married? I am technically Catholic by baptism so can I not marry as a divorced man in another country where it would not be recognised? Honestly it’s a mess. I’m glad that church and state are divided in most countries, barring the Philippines.

Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated. I am sorry if I have offended anyone with my value of secular love.

 

[Cor_ad_Cor]

I do feel for you, given that you’re finding yourself subject to laws you don’t particularly believe you should be bound by and under the authority of a church you don’t agree with or subscribe to. However, there are some concerning comments in your OP that the Church’s onerous process is meant to uncover.

I’m trying to honour her by taking her hand in marriage.

This strikes me in an odd way. Do you love her? Are you truly intending to commit yourself entirely to her for the rest of your life? If not, or if it’s simply because of the child, please seek some professional guidance (and my thought is just say no to the marriage, because you’re both going to be miserable in short order - and sounds to me as though you may be already).

She agreed to have it in my country in a secular way but wants a second ceremony back in the Philippines and under her god, in a catholic church.

This alone warrants some discussion; this is not always permissible, but I’m not up on all the various international laws. The Church would prefer, where civil law allows, that there be one and only one ceremony involving exchange of consent.

It was never a catholic marriage and the whole authoritative body behind this is anything but spiritual. I resent it completely.

I’m trying to put aside that your repeated statements about your tolerance don’t align with the tone I’m reading here, but I’ll attribute that to a frustrating process. What do you mean it was never a Catholic marriage? I ask, because you said:

I am technically Catholic by baptism so

If you didn’t follow Catholic Church laws with your first marriage, it should be a simply open-and-shut defect of form case —> null marriage. Even if you don’t profess to be Catholic or weren’t practicing, by virtue of baptism, your first marriage was subject to the Church’s laws. If you married outside the Church’s purview (especially to a non-Catholic), this should be easy peasy; just verifying the facts.

I let her baptize my child because I am tolerant… I’m going way out of my comfort zone to remarry, something I never wanted to do again.

This is another bit of your text that strikes me oddly. You say “I let her” and “my child” as if you two aren’t both parents making agreements. The statement about never wanting to remarry may also be a barrier to the Church for validity of the marriage. If you’re not in this because you want to be (of free will), there’s an automatic defect. A priest should weigh in on that.

To be continued…

 

[Cor_ad_Cor]

My question is this: Does it matter that I was ever married?

In short, yes. While it’s clear you don’t understand how the Church functions by your following comments, the bottom line is that Church law (the only law that matters in regard to your question/problem) only permits one marriage at a time, and marriage by definition in the law is only dissolved by death or proof of a defect at the time the marriage was attempted. Civil laws and definitions have no bearing on the matter. Your first wife is either deceased, or you demonstrate the defective attempt at marriage in order to be considered unmarried and eligible to marry your intended future wife.

 

[Padres1969]

Sounds like your first marriage was likely invalid. As you say you were baptized Catholic, your first marriage had to have been performed in accordance with Catholic law to be a valid marriage in the Catholic view. If that didn’t occur as far as the RCC would be concerned you never married the first time. No annulment should be required as there’s nothing to annul. Simply show a priest you didn’t have a Catholic wedding the first time and that should suffice I’d imagine.

 

[1ke]

Does it matter that I was ever married? I am technically Catholic by baptism so can I not marry as a divorced man in another country where it would not be recognised?

Yes it does matter.

However since you are baptized as a Catholic, if you did not marry in Catholic form or receive a dispensation, that is not a valid marriage attempt. It would not be a tribunal case, but rather a documentation procedure to verify your freedom to marry. You will need to provide your Catholic sacramental records (you or the diocese can request them from the church of baptism), your marriage certificate, and your divorce decree. It doesn’t involve your ex spouse at all.

I suggest you and she work together with a Catholic priest to prepare you for marriage, do all the paperwork necessary, and have her obtain a dispensation from Catholic form so that your marriage in your own country is a valid marriage and you don’t end up with MORE problems by having her attempt marriage outside the Church. She can do a celebration in the Philippines, but your marriage celebrated in your country would be valid in the Church.

First step: talk to a Catholic priest in your country about marriage preparation. This is not a do it yourself operation.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

My question is this: Does it matter that I was ever married? I am technically Catholic by baptism so can I not marry as a divorced man in another country where it would not be recognised? Honestly it’s a mess. I’m glad that church and state are divided in most countries, barring the Philippines.

First, I agree that you should speak to a priest about how you need to proceed, since you are Catholic by baptism.

Second, you need to take your future wife’s desires into account. You say that marriage doesn’t mean much to you, so it sounds like this is something you are doing primarily for her. Marriage sounds like it is a big deal to her. She would like to stand up before God back in her home country (I am presuming she has family or friends there also who would attend) and be married there. I’m not sure that you proposing to get married in some other place or some other way would satisfy her. Even if she agreed to your alternate proposal just to make you happy or make a marriage happen, she might have some secret disapppointment or even resentment that she did not get to have the wedding she wanted, that she may have dreamed about. This is not a good foot on which to start off a marriage.

From your description of the last couple years with this woman, it sounds likely that she has made a great many accommodations already for you and your cynicism and your baggage. My advice is if you really love her and you really want to marry her, make the effort to take the extra steps (which might not be as bad as you think - talk to the priest) and have the wedding she wants. Trust me on this, brah.
Good luck.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

You strike me as feeling very put-upon and not really into this marriage you’re trying to enter.
I don’t doubt you love your child, but I’m not sure you love your girlfriend enough to marry her.
You also seem to be very hurting from your first marriage, with a lot of emotional baggage.

But then maybe it’s a language barrier? What country are you from?

 

[RolandSmoke]

I haven’t disclosed all the details. Yes my previous marriage left me jaded, cynical towards monogamy but that was also necessary for me to find my own value once more. I had suppressed a lot of urges in order to be ‘the better man’ but as I married young (19) I hadn’t developed my own appreciation for this. Otherwise the only baggage I’ve truly felt is the social demarcation/stigma of being divorced, something my partner was anxious about. I’ve been very free and happy since the relationship ended years ago.

On the subject of further details, when I said it’s been a hell of a 2 years I am being quite literal. Her anxiety and emotional instability has been hard to manage. During the pregnancy myself and my housemate was forced to call the police because of serious and recurring physical violence, once even towards our son while in the womb and entirely directed at harming me. I have literal and figurative scars from this and I have struggled to cling to the love I have for her, despite so many telling me to build a case and keep her away from my son. I don’t believe in this and I am working to have a better relationship with our past, growing from it. I believe she is heavily burdened by a traumatic upbringing and I have at times be subjected to its manifestations. I have love for her on so many levels that I deem to be her truest form. She is strong-willed, compassionate (paediatric nurse) and holds something special that I think is yet to truly show itself.

I hope this answer suffices

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

You can’t leave a child with a dangerous parent.
Please get help. I know it’s sad and scary, but you risk something even more sad and scary if you don’t get real life, professional help.

ray:t2:

 

[RolandSmoke]

I am determined to be with this woman forever. Having been through divorce and experienced an understanding of love that I feel is transcendent, I simply mean that this is more meaningful for her in its function. For me the ring, a small ceremony and a nice party would make me happy. I have the idea that people grow in love more than they do just ‘luck’ into it. Our past is not pretty, but I’ve determined that it’s for me to have a better relationship with it and cultivate wisdom and love from it, or the suffering only continues.

You’re right to say that I did write the OP from a place of frustration. The tribunal approached me in a way that made me uncomfortable, requesting details that no-one but say a therapist should know and giving no assurance of privacy or safety, along with planning to approach my ex-wife which is not something I would entrust. She has lied and stolen from me and could easily threaten me with the leverage this provides… I do not resent the faith, I am just weary of organisations of people and felt a little pried upon by their expectations for disclosure. They were far from reasonable about their demands and I just personally think it’s very excessive. Is it so important that they pry like that?

My use of language is unusual with that “my child” statement. Honestly it’s something I picked up from my partner, who previously would make statements with that language to emphasise that I would not be in the picture, etc. It’s natural to reflect that a part of me, or my stake in his life was given up to her, rather than me making decisions. She is often crushed by the obligations of family and community to do things. I do this for her, knowing that he will make his own decisions in his life as I have.