Interactions with Evangelicals?

[andrewstx]

All of my interactions with evangelicals, in particular Southern Baptist, has always been positive. In fact, I always admired their bravery in proclaiming the faith and they never insulted me or the Church. All they ever really wanted to know was do I believe in Jesus Christ and is he my savior. I say yes and they are fine because the question is asked out of love not religious bigotry. In college I attended an evangelical bible study and it was great. My worst experience, I will have to say, is with fellow Catholics. I have never heard a Catholic evangelize and in college they were degenerates, as was I. (I went to a Catholic college my first semester of college).

And that is what an Evangelical and especially a Baptist would ask. It is what I would have asked when I was an Evangelical. Because according to them “gettin’ saved” is the only thing that matters. Baptism can be done as obeying the command of Jesus after ones sins have already been forgiven by “gettin’ saved”.

Evangelicals do not even have sacraments, they substitute another word, but it escapes my mind now. These rituals have no power to them and they are only symbolic. To the evangelical no physical act can have spiritual power. They have only two symbolic acts, baptism and the Lord’s Supper.

 

[ltwin]

Ah, I see.

My husband and I lived in the South, and were members of a Southern Baptist church for a little over a year.

We ended up leaving because we felt that the church was too liberal. Figure that one out!

From what we saw, there is a huge diversity among Southern Baptist churches. One of the Southern Baptist churches in our city was a stronghold for pro-choice groups, and the pastor of that church regularly made appearances for groups like NARAL. That same church also allowed the local Wiccan group to use the church building for their weekly “services” (I apologize that I don’t know what the Wiccans call their gatherings.)

But other Southern Baptist churches in the city were extremely conservative socially and theologically.

If you don’t mind, when was this?

From my understanding of SBC history, the 1980s was the time of the “Conservative Resurgence” when the conservative Baptists sort of repelled liberal encroachment. I would be very, very surprised to learn that there are pro-choice SBC churches today. I would think they’d be driven out of the Convention.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

And that is what an Evangelical and especially a Baptist would ask. It is what I would have asked when I was an Evangelical. Because according to them “gettin’ saved” is the only thing that matters. Baptism can be done as obeying the command of Jesus after ones sins have already been forgiven by “gettin’ saved”.

Evangelicals do not even have sacraments, they substitute another word, but it escapes my mind now. These rituals have no power to them and they are only symbolic. To the evangelical no physical act can have spiritual power. They have only two symbolic acts, baptism and the Lord’s Supper.

That’s a sobering summary that suggests denial of Christ’s Presence. Knowing fully well that Christ is most definitely Present among Evangelicals.

 

[AbideWithMe]

And that is what an Evangelical and especially a Baptist would ask. It is what I would have asked when I was an Evangelical. Because according to them “gettin’ saved” is the only thing that matters. Baptism can be done as obeying the command of Jesus after ones sins have already been forgiven by “gettin’ saved”.

Evangelicals do not even have sacraments, they substitute another word, but it escapes my mind now. These rituals have no power to them and they are only symbolic. To the evangelical no physical act can have spiritual power. They have only two symbolic acts, baptism and the Lord’s Supper.

Andrewstx–I think the word you’re looking for is ordinance. I stated in an earlier post that the Evangelical church I grew up in calls baptism a sacrament; to call the Evangelical practice of baptism in that church and in my present church “only symbolic” is a gross over-simplication of what we actually believe.

Again, I don’t mean to be rude to you or anyone else on this thread, but your inaccurate summary of Evangelicals values as just “gettin’ saved” is both incorrect and a tad offensive in the way you’ve chosen to spell the words. It’s gettin’ a bit old, Bubba.

 

[AbideWithMe]

That’s a sobering summary that suggests denial of Christ’s Presence. Knowing fully well that Christ is most definitely Present among Evangelicals.

It’s an inaccurate summary.

 

[robwar]

As a matter of fact, I have a “work friend” who is Evangelical and we get along perfectly well. We work closely together, discuss our families, current events, and are supportive of one another. Once in a while a matter of religion comes up in conversation. We don’t delve into it too deeply, but there’s never been any friction over it.

To tell you the truth, I’m not sure if Evangelicalism is a Protestant denomination or a description of some Protestants.

its a description. It usually means a more conservative view of interpreting the Bible as opposed to more liberal protestantism. Usually most evangelicals are found in the Baptist churches.

 

[robwar]

Andrewstx–I think the word you’re looking for is ordinance. I stated in an earlier post that the Evangelical church I grew up in calls baptism a sacrament; to call the Evangelical practice of baptism in that church and in my present church “only symbolic” is a gross over-simplication of what we actually believe.

Again, I don’t mean to be rude to you or anyone else on this thread, but your inaccurate summary of Evangelicals values as just “gettin’ saved” is both incorrect and a tad offensive in the way you’ve chosen to spell the words. It’s gettin’ a bit old, Bubba.

Actually though the Catholic church recognizes any Protestant baptism done in the trinitarian form which 98% of evangelicals use as a valid sacrament and would accept anyone as a valid baptized Christian. and yes i agree with your post, one simply can’t summarize or characterize Evangelicals since it is a broad term and there are many variences in Evangelicals. Sadly, I wish more Catholics would take their faith as serious as many Evangelicals do. Likewise, Evangelicals have been more faithful in voting for pro-life candidates than many so called Catholics. Rick Santorium received more support from them than Catholics and he is a Catholic. Orthodox or conservative Catholics have more in common with Evangelicals on social issues than they would with so call liberal or progressive Catholics.

 

[ltwin]

It’s an inaccurate summary.

Yes, very inaccurate. However, I believe Andrewstx was raised in the Churches of Christ, which seem to be a very insular type of evangelical denomination. I believe this is coloring his view of ALL evangelicals in a very simplified and, somewhat, distorted and at times uncharitable manner.

Andrewstx–I think the word you’re looking for is ordinance. I stated in an earlier post that the Evangelical church I grew up in calls baptism a sacrament; to call the Evangelical practice of baptism in that church and in my present church “only symbolic” is a gross over-simplication of what we actually believe.

AbideWithMe, I always enjoy your posts.

Evangelicals do use the word “sacrament,” but we don’t invest it with all the meaning inherent in Catholic sacramental theology. My grandpa (a Pentecostal minister) always refers to Holy Communion as “The Sacrament.”

Again, I don’t mean to be rude to you or anyone else on this thread, but your inaccurate summary of Evangelicals values as just “gettin’ saved” is both incorrect and a tad offensive in the way you’ve chosen to spell the words. It’s gettin’ a bit old, Bubba.

I know right. It seems to me that what Catholics often describe as evangelical teaching isn’t evangelicalism at all but semi-Pelagianism.

 

[Cat]

If you don’t mind, when was this?

From my understanding of SBC history, the 1980s was the time of the “Conservative Resurgence” when the conservative Baptists sort of repelled liberal encroachment. I would be very, very surprised to learn that there are pro-choice SBC churches today. I would think they’d be driven out of the Convention.

The 1980s.

And I’m glad that they are driving out pro-choice churches. We were so shocked. We actually had a rather terrifying experience with the pastor of that Southern Baptist church over our pro-life activities, but that’s OT.

In regards to the topic, I think that one of the hardest aspects of interacting with Evangelical Protestants is that there is no “common experience” in their churches. All Evangelical Protestants are different, and you really have to be extremely careful to not make any assumptions.

E.g., some have already mentioned Presbyterian Evangelical churches. There are still Evangelical Protestant churches that DO use a liturgical worship service. (Most don’t.)

Another example is music. Many Evangelical Protestants have never heard organ music in their churches. But others do. Some have praise and worship bands with a definite rock sound. But others are still teaching that rock music is the devil’s music.

(This is why I argue here on CAF that to many Evangelical Protestant converts, organ music is NOT perceived as “sacred” music, while rock music IS perceived as “sacred” music. If you are raised in a church with no organ, and the only time you hear organ is at classical music concerts, ball games, or skating rinks, you will not perceive the organ as a sacred instrument. And if you are raised with a rock band that accompanies all of your worship services, you will perceive rock music as worshipful, sacred music. It’s all how you were raised.)

Some Evangelical Protestant churches require the women to cover their heads in church–yes! Really!

And then there’s the denominational vs. non-denominational churches. This is so confusing.

I could on and on about the different types of Evangelical Protestants. You just have to do a lot of listening and don’t assume anything when you are talking to an Evangelical Protestant.

Like I said earlier, it’s entirely conceivable that the Catholic Church could call themselves “Evangelical.” IMO, our parish IS Evangelical!

 

[Contarini]

its a description. It usually means a more conservative view of interpreting the Bible as opposed to more liberal protestantism. Usually most evangelicals are found in the Baptist churches.

If you live in the South, I can see why you would think this. But in fact that isn’t true at all. The Southern Baptists, as someone else has pointed out, have actually held aloof from the evangelical movement as a whole in the past. Nor is evangelicalism just about a more conservative view of interpreting the Bible.

The Bible’s authority is certainly very important to evangelicals, but you can have a very conservative view of Scripture and not be an evangelical. Evangelicalism is most basically about the experiential side of Protestantism–personal faith in Jesus as Savior.

Evangelicals are found in nearly all Protestant denominations, and in many independent congregations and loose associations of churches. It’s hard to generalize about them, really.

Certainly Baptist views of congregational autonomy and baptism as an expression of personal faith are congenial to the ethos of the evangelical movement as a whole, and many evangelicals hold such views, whether or not they call themselves Baptists.

 

[CompSciGuy]

Hi everyone…

I wonder if any Catholics here have had any significant interactions with evangelical christians?

If so, what do they think of us? It seems in recent years, that many do in fact consider us “christians” and are willing to overlook our differences. Many believe we are saved… as if they knew…

I could be wrong, but the whole notion of Catholics as “Idol worshipin’, pagan idolaters” seems to be one from the past ( albeit still exiting among groups such as Westboro baptist Church"

I live in Minnesota. The only biggest faith group here are the Lutherans, a pretty tame and tolerant bunch, despite their doctrinal errors

Any thouhgts?

It’s all over the board and it’s pretty vague. I come from a family of Presbyterians (Presbyterian Church of America, which is one of the more conservative branches of Protestantism) and this group tends to be more critical of Catholicism and its doctrines. I have exposure to mainstream Protestantism, such as non-denom, Bible churches and southern/reformed Baptists through my younger siblings, who in college moved away from the more traditional PCA upbringing and toward this kind of Christianity. These groups tend to gloss over differences and tend not to want to argue on the finer points of theology but happily cling to this sort of fuzzy sense of Christian unity. Whereas my dad (a hardcore PCA) wants religious debates all the time and is very concerned about my belief in the Eucharist, sacraments, baptismal regeneration, etc. The more conservative and fundamentalist groups are anti-Catholic. Also the more “reformed” (meaning that they stress the beliefs of Calvinist doctrine) a Christian is, the more likely he is to be critical of Catholicism.

 

[CompSciGuy]

Andrewstx–I think the word you’re looking for is ordinance. I stated in an earlier post that the Evangelical church I grew up in calls baptism a sacrament; to call the Evangelical practice of baptism in that church and in my present church “only symbolic” is a gross over-simplication of what we actually believe.

Again, I don’t mean to be rude to you or anyone else on this thread, but your inaccurate summary of Evangelicals values as just “gettin’ saved” is both incorrect and a tad offensive in the way you’ve chosen to spell the words. It’s gettin’ a bit old, Bubba.

If this is true, then your brand of evangelicalism is rather unique. I also grew up evangelical and andrewstx’ description is pretty accurate of almost all Evangelicals, at least in the south. (Andrews and I are both from Texas so I guess our experiences are similar.) It goes basically like he said: once you’re saved, you’re set… no losing your salvation after that. Baptism is described as a “public proclamation of faith” and does not have any spiritual or metaphysical significance. Communion is celebrated maybe once or twice a year and is a symbol, or a “memorial service” as it is described, of Christ’s passion. Heavy emphasis on overseas missions. Heavy emphasis on evangelisation. And yes generally there is a big emphasis on getting saved. Every summer camp has an altar call, and usually every retreat or worship event. It’s usually a very emotional thing. I remember “getting saved” maybe 3 or 4 times between elementary and middle school (not that I was or wasn’t saved during each of those times, but that was the nature of the fervor and emotion of these events).

Again, if this is not your evangelicalism, then good for you. You are an exception. But this is a pretty accurate description of evangelicalism in the south.

 

[robwar]

If you live in the South, I can see why you would think this. But in fact that isn’t true at all. The Southern Baptists, as someone else has pointed out, have actually held aloof from the evangelical movement as a whole in the past. Nor is evangelicalism just about a more conservative view of interpreting the Bible.

The Bible’s authority is certainly very important to evangelicals, but you can have a very conservative view of Scripture and not be an evangelical. Evangelicalism is most basically about the experiential side of Protestantism–personal faith in Jesus as Savior.

Evangelicals are found in nearly all Protestant denominations, and in many independent congregations and loose associations of churches. It’s hard to generalize about them, really.

Certainly Baptist views of congregational autonomy and baptism as an expression of personal faith are congenial to the ethos of the evangelical movement as a whole, and many evangelicals hold such views, whether or not they call themselves Baptists.

I don’t live in the South but in Michigan. And yes I already know that evangelical is a very broad based term and people that consider themselves that are found in nearly every Protestant denomination. Generally and I am not just thinking Southern Baptist at all, many Baptist churches would in general consider themselves evangelical. Likewise, they do take a more literal view of Bible interpretation. For example and I think I can safely say this, an evangelical would view the virgin birth as real. Growing up Methodist, I had our religious ed director not believe in the virgin birth. That is just one example. I think someone like Billy graham would be viewed as an example of an evangelical. Coming from my background I can safely say this and it has nothing to do with being in the south.

 

[AbideWithMe]

These rituals have no power to them and they are only symbolic. To the evangelical no physical act can have spiritual power.

Evangelicals do use the word “sacrament,” but we don’t invest it with all the meaning inherent in Catholic sacramental theology. My grandpa (a Pentecostal minister) always refers to Holy Communion as “The Sacrament.”

Yes, I agree that we don’t invest “sacrament”, when we do use it, with all meanings that Catholicism does. That’s a good point and I was waffling over making it myself when I posted about this last night, so I’m glad you brought it up. But, Andrewstx’s assertion which I quoted above is specifically what I was objecting to, as it’s untrue. It may be true for some Evangelical churches, but not as a generalization by any means. I’ve absolutely heard/read/been taught in both the Evangelical churches which I mentioned earlier that God certainly can use the physical means of sacraments to give us a gift of grace. If I were to try to phrase it in terms which I hear from Catholics, I’d sum it up as “God can and does use sacraments, but He is not bound by them” with a greater emphasis among Evangelicals to the “He is not bound by them” part than what I seem to be hearing from Catholics.

When it comes to baptism, while some Evangelicals ascribe sacramental significance to it and some don’t, I think there’s another part of Evangelical belief about baptism that is held more consistently across denominations. The Catholic Encyclopedia entry on baptism, under the section “Necessity of Baptism” (listed about halfway down), makes a very useful distinction about believing baptism to be a “necessity of means”, a “necessity of precept”, or both. According to the entry, Catholicism teaches that it is a necessity of both types, and that the necessity of means is near absolute for both infants and older people. As far as I know, however, apart from the Churches of Christ as one example which I found, I have not come across Evangelicals who believe baptism is a necessity of means, but only of precept. That seems like a huge distinction from what the Catholic Encyclopedia describes as the Catholic teaching about baptism.

Edit- corrected link:www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm

 

[AbideWithMe]

If this is true, then your brand of evangelicalism is rather unique. I also grew up evangelical and andrewstx’ description is pretty accurate of almost all Evangelicals, at least in the south. (Andrews and I are both from Texas so I guess our experiences are similar.) It goes basically like he said: once you’re saved, you’re set… no losing your salvation after that. Baptism is described as a “public proclamation of faith” and does not have any spiritual or metaphysical significance. Communion is celebrated maybe once or twice a year and is a symbol, or a “memorial service” as it is described, of Christ’s passion. Heavy emphasis on overseas missions. Heavy emphasis on evangelisation. And yes generally there is a big emphasis on getting saved. Every summer camp has an altar call, and usually every retreat or worship event. It’s usually a very emotional thing. I remember “getting saved” maybe 3 or 4 times between elementary and middle school (not that I was or wasn’t saved during each of those times, but that was the nature of the fervor and emotion of these events).

Again, if this is not your evangelicalism, then good for you. You are an exception. But this is a pretty accurate description of evangelicalism in the south.

CompSciGuy, I’ll try to reply after my work day.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Yes, I agree that we don’t invest “sacrament”, when we do use it, with all meanings that Catholicism does. That’s a good point and I was waffling over making it myself when I posted about this last night, so I’m glad you brought it up. But, Andrewstx’s assertion which I quoted above is specifically what I was objecting to, as it’s untrue. It may be true for some Evangelical churches, but not as a generalization by any means. I’ve absolutely heard/read/been taught in both the Evangelical churches which I mentioned earlier that God certainly can use the physical means of sacraments to give us a gift of grace. If I were to try to phrase it in terms which I hear from Catholics, I’d sum it up as “God can and does use sacraments, but He is not bound by them” with a greater emphasis among Evangelicals to the “He is not bound by them” part than what I seem to be hearing from Catholics.

When it comes to baptism, while some Evangelicals ascribe sacramental significance to it and some don’t, I think there’s another part of Evangelical belief about baptism that is held more consistently across denominations. The Catholic Encyclopedia entry on baptism, under the section “Necessity of Baptism” (listed about halfway down), makes a very useful distinction about believing baptism to be a “necessity of means”, a “necessity of precept”, or both. According to the entry, Catholicism teaches that it is a necessity of both types, and that the necessity of means is near absolute for both infants and older people. As far as I know, however, apart from the Churches of Christ as one example which I found, I have not come across Evangelicals who believe baptism is a necessity of means, but only of precept. That seems like a huge distinction from what the Catholic Encyclopedia describes as the Catholic teaching about baptism.

Edit- corrected link:www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm

I am glad you are in perhaps a more deeply rooted sort if evangelical church. What type is it?

I agree more with Texans view of evangelicalism.

Here in California, I’ve been to a wide range of evangelical churches, most non-denominational, my free home church, and some Friends and Baptist churches.

Never in my life had I heard if communion being a sacrament or graces coming from it or the like.

We did quarterly communion and other than eighth graders who had to be baptized to go on the international missions trip, we baptized once a year about 10 people (church of 5000).

The closest I got to liturgy was the last American Baptist church I went to and loved. It was a small inner city church that had a heart for serving and being in the community. They said the Apostles Creed every Sunday and had the culmination of their service be communion every week.

So yes, what you describe does occur but I must say from my experience it is not the norm. Especially in large churches.

 

[AbideWithMe]

I am glad you are in perhaps a more deeply rooted sort if evangelical church. What type is it?

I agree more with Texans view of evangelicalism.

Here in California, I’ve been to a wide range of evangelical churches, most non-denominational, my free home church, and some Friends and Baptist churches.

Never in my life had I heard if communion being a sacrament or graces coming from it or the like.

We did quarterly communion and other than eighth graders who had to be baptized to go on the international missions trip, we baptized once a year about 10 people (church of 5000).

The closest I got to liturgy was the last American Baptist church I went to and loved. It was a small inner city church that had a heart for serving and being in the community. They said the Apostles Creed every Sunday and had the culmination of their service be communion every week.

So yes, what you describe does occur but I must say from my experience it is not the norm. Especially in large churches.

I’m supposed to be working (I’m a self-employed artist but I try to keep my schedule pretty steady). I grew up in the Evangelical Congregational Church and now go to an EFCA, as you were in. I suspect one difference between your experience and mine is due to my church being of “normal” size, but I also surmise that the Lutheran flavor of this part of PA keeps the EFree Churches here better tied to their roots. I have, however, some years ago also read discussions in national EFree journals about baptism describing it much more sacramentally. I’m not sure if I can find some of that online, but I’ll try to look after work if I have the time tonight.

 

[ltwin]

I’m supposed to be working (I’m a self-employed artist but I try to keep my schedule pretty steady). I grew up in the Evangelical Congregational Church and now go to an EFCA, as you were in. I suspect one difference between your experience and mine is due to my church being of “normal” size, but I also surmise that the Lutheran flavor of this part of PA keeps the EFree Churches here better tied to their roots. I have, however, some years ago also read discussions in national EFree journals about baptism describing it much more sacramentally. I’m not sure if I can find some of that online, but I’ll try to look after work if I have the time tonight.

And it’s not just that AbideWithMe is from some strange corner of evangelical Protestantism that nobody’s ever heard of. You can find many examples of evangelicals using the word “sacrament” and “ordinance” interchangeably. You can also find examples of evangelical pastors and theologians who talk about Holy Communion and baptism in terms that aren’t strictly memorialist. One example I’ve mentioned before is Jack Hayford’s teaching on water baptism.

 

[Jon_S_1]

And it’s not just that AbideWithMe is from some strange corner of evangelical Protestantism that nobody’s ever heard of. You can find many examples of evangelicals using the word “sacrament” and “ordinance” interchangeably. You can also find examples of evangelical pastors and theologians who talk about Holy Communion and baptism in terms that aren’t strictly memorialist. One example I’ve mentioned before is Jack Hayford’s teaching on water baptism.

Well spread that message!

It’s important!

Thinking more like that and less like my experience would be key to further ecumenical dialogue between Catholics and evangelicals. Something that I pray for often.

Modern evangelicalism seems to be a middle ground between Fundamentalism and the unorthodoxy liberalism of the mainline denominations.

As such it seems very “American”. The “Melting Pot” of Protestantism.

 

[andrewstx]

And that is what an Evangelical and especially a Baptist would ask. It is what I would have asked when I was an Evangelical. Because according to them “gettin’ saved” is the only thing that matters. Baptism can be done as obeying the command of Jesus after ones sins have already been forgiven by “gettin’ saved”.

Evangelicals do not even have sacraments, they substitute another word, but it escapes my mind now. These rituals have no power to them and they are only symbolic. To the evangelical no physical act can have spiritual power. They have only two symbolic acts, baptism and the Lord’s Supper.

The word stuck in my brain was “ordinance”. Thank you ITwin