Interactions with Evangelicals?

[CompSciGuy]

(This is why I argue here on CAF that to many Evangelical Protestant converts, organ music is NOT perceived as “sacred” music, while rock music IS perceived as “sacred” music. If you are raised in a church with no organ, and the only time you hear organ is at classical music concerts, ball games, or skating rinks, you will not perceive the organ as a sacred instrument. And if you are raised with a rock band that accompanies all of your worship services, you will perceive rock music as worshipful, sacred music. It’s all how you were raised.)

Really? I would think that the opposite would be true… it certainly is for me. I think of “sacred” as being set apart. I hear electric guitars and drums in rock and pop music, so I don’t think of it as sacred and never did when I went to evangelical churches in college where this kind of music was supposed to be more “relevant” for us. Whereas organs (church organs, not jazz organs) and the accompanying hyms are much more solemn and send a chill down my spine and fill me with a sense of reverence.

And then there’s the denominational vs. non-denominational churches. This is so confusing.

All a non-denominational church is is a one-church denomination…

I could on and on about the different types of Evangelical Protestants. You just have to do a lot of listening and don’t assume anything when you are talking to an Evangelical Protestant.

Well, this may be true in a way, but I think there is a definite mainstream “evangelical” brand of Christianity that carries with it certain stereotypes and can be pretty easily identified.

 

[CompSciGuy]

I’m supposed to be working (I’m a self-employed artist but I try to keep my schedule pretty steady). I grew up in the Evangelical Congregational Church and now go to an EFCA, as you were in. I suspect one difference between your experience and mine is due to my church being of “normal” size, but I also surmise that the Lutheran flavor of this part of PA keeps the EFree Churches here better tied to their roots. I have, however, some years ago also read discussions in national EFree journals about baptism describing it much more sacramentally. I’m not sure if I can find some of that online, but I’ll try to look after work if I have the time tonight.

It’s pretty clear we’re speaking two different languages here… As a former evangelical I would certainly not describe either the Evangelical Congregational church nor the EFCA to be mainstream Evangelical, I am sure that many evangelicals would agree with me here. They are offshoots of mainline evangelicalism.

 

[AbideWithMe]

And it’s not just that AbideWithMe is from some strange corner of evangelical Protestantism that nobody’s ever heard of. You can find many examples of evangelicals using the word “sacrament” and “ordinance” interchangeably. You can also find examples of evangelical pastors and theologians who talk about Holy Communion and baptism in terms that aren’t strictly memorialist. One example I’ve mentioned before is Jack Hayford’s teaching on water baptism.

Right.

Jon, Andrewstx, and CompSciGuy–If you gentlemen are willing to download a very short PDF for a couple of minutes’ reading, the following link should help you understand why I have to insist that the generalizations in Andrewstx’s previous post are untrue when speaking of Evangelicals as a whole. (Andrewstx, I truly don’t mean to seem like I’m picking on you. I regard all of you with respect and friendliness, which would probably come across much better if we were talking in person.) The link offers a PDF which explains the Evangelical Congregational Church’s teaching on sacraments. While it differs from Catholic teaching in some ways, it makes it unmistakable that we accept the sacraments as a “sure and certain means of grace,” not as symbolic only.

eccenter.com/ecc./media/EC-Brochures/Sacraments.pdf

If you don’t want to go to the PDF, here’s an excerpt regarding the sacraments from the Evangelical Church in North America, which is historically very closely related to the Evangelical Congregation Church:

“The Holy Scriptures declare that the sacraments ordained by Christ, are not only pledges and symbols of the Christian’s profession, but they are also signs of God’s love and grace toward us, by which He works invisibly in us, quickening, strengthening and confirming our faith in Him.”

Regarding whether my church was unique, CompSciGuy—no, not at all. It was originally known as the Evangelical Association, or Albright’s Brethren, and it was in essence a Wesleyan Methodist church for the Pennsylvania German speakers in PA’s early days. For that reason it’s mostly stayed on the east coast, but thanks to mergers, splits, reunions, mergers, splits, and reunions again, the ECC has kissing cousins all over the US and the world. Although the ECC stayed out of two important mergers, the larger body of the Evangelical Association’s direct descendents eventually joined with The Methodist Church (US) to form the United Methodist Church. Some smaller branches of the Evangelical Association (like the ECC, ECNA, and the old constitution United Brethren in Christ) stayed out of the mergers and ultimately remained more conservative.(That’s probably more truncated Evangelical history than you wanted to read, sorry )

Anyway, far from being unique, uncommon, or outside the norm, the ECC’s teaching on sacraments is a long-standing and widespread feature of that large amount of American Evangelicalism that’s descended from Anglicanism via Methodism.

 

[AbideWithMe]

It’s pretty clear we’re speaking two different languages here… As a former evangelical I would certainly not describe either the Evangelical Congregational church nor the EFCA to be mainstream Evangelical, I am sure that many evangelicals would agree with me here. They are offshoots of mainline evangelicalism.

I was writing while you posted this, so I don’t know if my post after yours will help to clarify things.

Certainly the ECC and EFCA are mainstream Evangelical. That’s not a question about which there should be any doubt if you know something of the history of Evangelicalism in America, or, indeed, are a member if those churches today. And yes, they are also offshoots of the mainline churches. The only Evangelical churches which come to my mind that would be more deliberately not offshoots of the mainline churches would be Baptists. (And Anabaptists, sort of.) One of the primary roots of Evangelicalism goes back into German Pietism and comes out more strongly in the Methodist movement in Anglicanism.

I wonder if you are defining Evangelical=Baptist?

 

[AbideWithMe]

Right.

Jon, Andrewstx, and CompSciGuy–If you gentlemen are willing to download a very short PDF for a couple of minutes’ reading, the following link should help you understand why I have to insist that the generalizations in Andrewstx’s previous post are untrue when speaking of Evangelicals as a whole. (Andrewstx, I truly don’t mean to seem like I’m picking on you. I regard all of you with respect and friendliness, which would probably come across much better if we were talking in person.) The link offers a PDF which explains the Evangelical Congregational Church’s teaching on sacraments. While it differs from Catholic teaching in some ways, it makes it unmistakable that we accept the sacraments as a “sure and certain means of grace,” not as symbolic only.

eccenter.com/ecc./media/EC-Brochures/Sacraments.pdf

If you don’t want to go to the PDF, here’s an excerpt regarding the sacraments from the Evangelical Church in North America, which is historically very closely related to the Evangelical Congregation Church:

“The Holy Scriptures declare that the sacraments ordained by Christ, are not only pledges and symbols of the Christian’s profession, but they are also signs of God’s love and grace toward us, by which He works invisibly in us, quickening, strengthening and confirming our faith in Him.”

Regarding whether my church was unique, CompSciGuy—no, not at all. It was originally known as the Evangelical Association, or Albright’s Brethren, and it was in essence a Wesleyan Methodist church for the Pennsylvania German speakers in PA’s early days. For that reason it’s mostly stayed on the east coast, but thanks to mergers, splits, reunions, mergers, splits, and reunions again, the ECC has kissing cousins all over the US and the world. Although the ECC stayed out of two important mergers, the larger body of the Evangelical Association’s direct descendents eventually joined with The Methodist Church (US) to form the United Methodist Church. Some smaller branches of the Evangelical Association (like the ECC, ECNA, and the old constitution United Brethren in Christ) stayed out of the mergers and ultimately remained more conservative.(That’s probably more truncated Evangelical history than you wanted to read, sorry )

Anyway, far from being unique, uncommon, or outside the norm, the ECC’s teaching on sacraments is a long-standing and widespread feature of that large amount of American Evangelicalism that’s descended from Anglicanism via Methodism.

Sorry, that link doesn’t work. I’ll try again, or it can be Googled under “Evangelical Congregational Church Sacraments”.

eccenter.com/ecc/media/EC-Brochures/Sacraments.pdf

Okay, the above link works for me.

 

[ltwin]

Really? I would think that the opposite would be true… it certainly is for me. I think of “sacred” as being set apart. I hear electric guitars and drums in rock and pop music, so I don’t think of it as sacred and never did when I went to evangelical churches in college where this kind of music was supposed to be more “relevant” for us. Whereas organs (church organs, not jazz organs) and the accompanying hyms are much more solemn and send a chill down my spine and fill me with a sense of reverence.

I think Cat’s point was that the sacred/secular divide is all relative. As a Pentecostal, I never conceived of musical instruments in themselves as sacred or secular. What mattered was whether it was being used for a sacred or secular purpose.

I mean, when I read scriptures such as Psalm 150 I see a variety of instruments being used, and “praise him with loud clashing cymbals” can arguably apply to a drum set.

 

[ltwin]

I wonder if you are defining Evangelical=Baptist?

I think that’s whats going on, which is unfortunate. People who do that leave out an entire wing of Wesleyan oriented evangelicalism. The irony is that some of the most formative figures within evangelical Protestantism like John Wesley and George Whitefield were Anglican priests!

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Quite enlightening that some Evangelicals profess the Apostles Creed and celebrate the Lord’s Supper every Sunday.

 

[CompSciGuy]

I was writing while you posted this, so I don’t know if my post after yours will help to clarify things.

Certainly the ECC and EFCA are mainstream Evangelical. That’s not a question about which there should be any doubt if you know something of the history of Evangelicalism in America, or, indeed, are a member if those churches today. And yes, they are also offshoots of the mainline churches. The only Evangelical churches which come to my mind that would be more deliberately not offshoots of the mainline churches would be Baptists. (And Anabaptists, sort of.) One of the primary roots of Evangelicalism goes back into German Pietism and comes out more strongly in the Methodist movement in Anglicanism.

I wonder if you are defining Evangelical=Baptist?

When I (and most people on this forum) talk about Evangelicals, I am talking about the Kirk Cameron, Rick Warren, Keith Green, John MacArthur, Chuck Swindoll variety of Evangelicalism. This is the most common in the United States. As someone stated before, there is obviously so much difference in opinion (as clearly stated by your own comments) about what Evangelicalism is. When people on this forum talk about Evangelicalism, they are talking about this mainstream variety, this excludes to some extend the more traditional or historical Protestant movements such as classical lutheranism, the newer offshoots such as the “emergent church,” etc. This is what people are talking about when they talk about evangelicalism. Don’t get all bent out of shape then when people make generalizations about Evangelicals because we’re not always talking about the same thing.

 

[CompSciGuy]

I think that’s whats going on, which is unfortunate. People who do that leave out an entire wing of Wesleyan oriented evangelicalism. The irony is that some of the most formative figures within evangelical Protestantism like John Wesley and George Whitefield were Anglican priests!

I rest my case… we are speaking a different language.

 

[CompSciGuy]

Sorry, that link doesn’t work. I’ll try again, or it can be Googled under “Evangelical Congregational Church Sacraments”.

eccenter.com/ecc/media/EC-Brochures/Sacraments.pdf

Okay, the above link works for me.

“Evangelical Congregationalism” is such a small sect within protestant christianity, I hardly think that it can be used as a general example for mainstream evangelical protestantism.

 

[CompSciGuy]

I wonder if you are defining Evangelical=Baptist?

Baptists, Non-denominational, Bible churches, Community Church you know the drill.

Examples of major evangelical churches include Marc Driscoll’s Mars Hill Church, John Piper’s Bethlehem Baptist Church, Rick Warren’s Saddleback Church, John MacArthur’s Grace Community Church, and Matt Chandler’s The Village Church. Not all of these are baptist; pretty much all of them are mainstream evangelical.

 

[CompSciGuy]

I am glad you are in perhaps a more deeply rooted sort if evangelical church. What type is it?

I agree more with Texans view of evangelicalism.

Here in California, I’ve been to a wide range of evangelical churches, most non-denominational, my free home church, and some Friends and Baptist churches.

Never in my life had I heard if communion being a sacrament or graces coming from it or the like.

We did quarterly communion and other than eighth graders who had to be baptized to go on the international missions trip, we baptized once a year about 10 people (church of 5000).

The closest I got to liturgy was the last American Baptist church I went to and loved. It was a small inner city church that had a heart for serving and being in the community. They said the Apostles Creed every Sunday and had the culmination of their service be communion every week.

So yes, what you describe does occur but I must say from my experience it is not the norm. Especially in large churches.

What he said.

 

[ltwin]

Quite enlightening that some Evangelicals profess the Apostles Creed and celebrate the Lord’s Supper every Sunday.

The Apostles Creed (and the Nicene Creed as well) while not used in worship services by many evangelicals are still held up as the standards of orthodox Christianity.

 

[ltwin]

When I (and most people on this forum) talk about Evangelicals, I am talking about the Kirk Cameron, Rick Warren, Keith Green, John MacArthur, Chuck Swindoll variety of Evangelicalism. This is the most common in the United States. As someone stated before, there is obviously so much difference in opinion (as clearly stated by your own comments) about what Evangelicalism is. When people on this forum talk about Evangelicalism, they are talking about this mainstream variety, this excludes to some extend the more traditional or historical Protestant movements such as classical lutheranism, the newer offshoots such as the “emergent church,” etc. This is what people are talking about when they talk about evangelicalism. Don’t get all bent out of shape then when people make generalizations about Evangelicals because we’re not always talking about the same thing.

Hmm, OK, whatever.

 

[ltwin]

Baptists, Non-denominational, Bible churches, Community Church you know the drill.

Examples of major evangelical churches include Marc Driscoll’s Mars Hill Church, John Piper’s Bethlehem Baptist Church, Rick Warren’s Saddleback Church, John MacArthur’s Grace Community Church, and Matt Chandler’s The Village Church. Not all of these are baptist; pretty much all of them are mainstream evangelical.

I notice that a lot of the evangelicals you mention are either Reformed or Baptist (or both).Driscoll and MacArthur are Reformed, non-denominational. Piper and Chandler are Reformed and Baptist. And Warren is Southern Baptist but whether he’s a Calvinist or Arminian I’m not sure (though I suspect Arminian). It sort of evokes the age old rivalry between Reformed and Wesleyan-Arminian evangelicals, as discussed by historian Grant Wacker in this article from Modern Reformation, “Are Charismatic-Inclined Pietists the True Evangelicals? And Have the Reformed Tried to Highjack Their Movement?”

 

[Jon_S_1]

Quite enlightening that some Evangelicals profess the Apostles Creed and celebrate the Lord’s Supper every Sunday.

I think my short 3 months in that church totally Teed me up for embracing liturgy. It was a field trip to Catholic Mass for a school report that exposed me to the beautiful liturgy and the humbly experience if mass that I was longing for growing up, tasted in that small baptist church, and fully experienced in the Catholic Church.

That’s what really got me studying Catholicism.

Thank you Lord!

 

[ltwin]

Re-reading the Grant Wacker interview I posted above, I found this very useful paragraph. It helpfully separates the 3 uses of “evangelical” that sometimes conflict and at other times overlaps.

My own efforts to achieve precision emphasize three quite different and irreducible ways of using “evangelical” that are in fundamental conflict and represent three different periods of theological struggle: 1. There is the** Lutheran use in the sixteenth century** over against Catholicism to express an understanding of the Gospel rooted in the doctrine of justification and the disjunctive solas of the Reformation (by Christ alone, by grace alone, by faith alone, etc.). Alistair McGrath (and perhaps MR?), for example, seems to be working with this understanding. 2. There is the pre-fundamentalist Wesleyan use rooted in the “evangelical revival” of eighteenth century England with a polemic against “nominal Christianity” (mere orthodoxy) for a conversionist “religion of the heart” grounded in a strong doctrine of sanctification and the conjunctive unity of faith and works. 3. There is the twentieth century post-fundamentalist use in the “neo-evangelical movement” that emerged in the 1940s and 1950s (“fundamentalists with manners”) and found its theological agenda in the supposed defense of “orthodoxy” against the “acids of modernity” and the fight against “liberalism.” When the “neo” is dropped, this becomes what I call “generic evangelicalism,” understood in a paradigm which makes fundamental a “conservative-liberal” divide-the paradigm that seems to dominate our own use of the term. In English we have little means of distinguishing these variations. German, however, distinguishes these usages clearly. People: (1) describe Lutheranism as evangelisch; (2) speak of Pietismus or theologie der Erweckungsbewegung (the awakening movement); and (3) borrow from English to describe those who go to Billy Graham’s evangelism conferences as Evangelikale. Perhaps we should appropriate a convention from the church growth school to speak in English of E1, E2, and E3 to make ourselves clear! In the Anglo-Saxon world, the most useful and historically appropriate way of using the word “evangelical” is, I believe, according to the second or Wesleyan paradigm-what I would call classical Evangelicalism.

 

[Cat]

I’m supposed to be working (I’m a self-employed artist but I try to keep my schedule pretty steady). I grew up in the Evangelical Congregational Church and now go to an EFCA, as you were in. I suspect one difference between your experience and mine is due to my church being of “normal” size, but I also surmise that the Lutheran flavor of this part of PA keeps the EFree Churches here better tied to their roots. I have, however, some years ago also read discussions in national EFree journals about baptism describing it much more sacramentally. I’m not sure if I can find some of that online, but I’ll try to look after work if I have the time tonight.

Yes, Evangelical Congregational is on the list of member churches in the National Association of Evangelicals!

It’s like I said–never assume anything when someone tells you that they are "Evangelical Protestant.

My husband grew up in the Assemblies of God, which is also “on the list” of NAE. I’m not sure if they have changed any of their teachings (I don’t think so), but he grew up NOT believing in “once saved always saved.” The A of God teaches (or at least, used to teach) that a person CAN lose their salvation if they reject Jesus as their Savior and renounce Him.

So even once saved, always saved is not a guideline to Evangelicalism!

Please refer to the Statement of Faith of Evangelical churches which I posted above, or you can go to the NAE website and read it.

Also, please keep in mind that “Evangelical” is not so much a “set of beliefs” or a “statement of faith,” but a mindset in which teaching and preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ is our most important task, and the reason why we are here on this earth. Everything Evangelicals do is with the purpose of obeying the Great Commission, and bring Christ to “Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the uttermost parts of the earth.”

 

[Cat]

It’s pretty clear we’re speaking two different languages here… As a former evangelical I would certainly not describe either the Evangelical Congregational church nor the EFCA to be mainstream Evangelical, I am sure that many evangelicals would agree with me here. They are offshoots of mainline evangelicalism.

Again, see the list of member churches at the National Association of Evangelicals website. Evangelical Congregational is most definitely on the list!