Interactions with Evangelicals?

[AbideWithMe]

Sorry, that link doesn’t work. I’ll try again, or it can be Googled under “Evangelical Congregational Church Sacraments”.

eccenter.com/ecc/media/EC-Brochures/Sacraments.pdf

Okay, the above link works for me.

TK, here’s an excerpt regarding baptism in the Evangelical Congregational Church from a link I posted earlier. I see you’re in PA . The ECC is one of the most common Evangelical churches in much of the swath of counties from Allentown to Harrisburg, excepting the area around Philly. I agree with you that in some Evangelical churches a sacramental theology is either downplayed or was never a part of a particular church’s theology, but I also see it becoming better taught in other Evangelical churches (beside the ECC which has always held a belief in sacraments as an actual and sure means of grace). Sometimes, too, it’s there in a particular church but the pastors focus so much on everyday family life, relationship, and social justice issues in their sermons that the congregants end up being poorly taught on some of the basics of their churchs’ beliefs. And then sometimes, the theology is being well taught but not everyone is paying attention.

Here’s an bit from the above link: "Because baptism, whether received as an infant or an adult believer, is the mark of the covenant between a candidate and God, the Evangelical Congregational Church does not encourage re-baptism. The Nicene Creed acknowledges, “one baptism for the remission of sins.” Baptism cannot be undone, and it does not need to be repeated. It may be that there are occasions when baptismal vows may be meaningfully renewed, but the “outward, visible sign” should not be repeated.

“For the Evangelical Congregational Church baptism can never be a mere ceremony in which there is a sprinkle of water, and phrases repeated by parents speaking for a child, or an adult speaking for him/herself. It is, rather, something that is uniquely God’s business. Its symbolism is from Him, the commandment to do it is from Him, the grace conveyed is His grace, and the person so consecrated stands in a relationship to Him and to His people. It is something over which the Holy Spirit presides and which He enables.”

 

[AbideWithMe]

Funny story.

At my old evangelical free church the worship pastor started introducing this song called “the creed”.

It is the Apostle’s Creed put to praise music.

The first Sunday we sang it.

That week the murmurs about professing one Catholic Church circulated.

The next Sunday he gave an explanation of how catholic just means universal and not the Roman Catholic Church. Talked about the creed history a bit.

Now apparently the emails and letters started flooding the in box of the pastors and elders.

The next week the creed was changed to “One Holy Christian Church”

That went on for a couple months and it was abandoned.

Yeah, that’s somewhere between funny and really sad. We have sung, at different times, the Petra, Rich Mullins, or Third Day setting. I will put my foot down, though, if a “Louie Louie” setting ever comes around.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Great discussion!

Does the Savoy Declaration have influence with Evangelicals? How does the Savoy Declaration differ from the Westminster Confession of Faith?

I think a Lutheran would feel comfortable in a Congregational church.

That’s a good question. I’d never heard of the Savoy Declaration, so I had to look it up. It seems to be an addition to the Westminster Confession by the English Nonconformists? And so it would have influenced the people who formed the Congregational churches, particularly in colonial New England. I would think that influence would have come down to some extent in what is now the United Church of Christ and also influenced the Baptists, too, I guess.

The Evangelical Congregational Church that I grew up in isn’t connected to what most people think of when Congregational churches are discussed, so, though I hadn’t heard of the Savoy Declaration before, it’ s interesting to read about it.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

That’s a good question. I’d never heard of the Savoy Declaration, so I had to look it up. It seems to be an addition to the Westminster Confession by the English Nonconformists? And so it would have influenced the people who formed the Congregational churches, particularly in colonial New England. I would think that influence would have come down to some extent in what is now the United Church of Christ and also influenced the Baptists, too, I guess.

The Evangelical Congregational Church that I grew up in isn’t connected to what most people think of when Congregational churches are discussed, so, though I hadn’t heard of the Savoy Declaration before, it’ s interesting to read about it.

I found the Savoy Declaration on the site of an Evangelical Congregation Church in Lancaster PA ecclancaster.org/page/links

The discussion of the sacraments is perhaps unlike other Evangelical churches but speaks of graces:

1 Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ to be unto the party baptised a sign and seal of the covenant of grace, of his ingrafting into Christ, of regeneration, of remission of sins, and of his giving up unto God through Jesus Christ to walk in newness of life; which ordinance is by Christ’s own appointment to be continued in his Church until the end of the world.

4 Not only those that do actually profess faith in and obedience unto Christ, but also the infants of one or both believing parents are to be baptised, and those only.

6 The efficacy of baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered; yet notwithstanding, by the right use of this ordinance, the grace promised is not only offered, but really exhibited and conferred by the Holy Ghost to such (whether of age or infants) as that grace belongeth unto, according to the counsel of God’s own will in his appointed time.

7 Baptism is but once to be administered to any person.

3 The Lord Jesus hath in this ordinance appointed his ministers to pray and bless the elements of bread and wine, and thereby to set them apart from a common to an holy use; and to take and break the bread, to take the cup, and (they communicating also themselves) to give both to the communicants; but to none who are not then present in the congregation.

5 The outward elements in this sacrament duly set apart to the uses ordained by Christ, have such relation to him crucified, as that truly, yet sacramentally only, they are sometimes called by the name of the things they represent, to wit, the body and blood of Christ; albeit, in substance and nature, they still remain truly and only bread and wine as they were before.

7 Worthy receivers outwardly partaking of the visible elements in this sacrament, do then also inwardly by faith, really and indeed, yet not carnally and corporally, but spiritually, receive and feed upon Christ crucified, and all benefits of his death; the body and blood of Christ being then not corporally or carnally in, with, or under the bread or wine; yet as really, but spiritually present to the faith of believers in that ordinance, as the elements themselves are to their outward senses.

penielgreenchurch.org.uk/Files/Savoy%20Declaration%20HTML.htm#C28

 

[AbideWithMe]

I found the Savoy Declaration on the site of an Evangelical Congregation Church in Lancaster PA ecclancaster.org/page/links

The discussion of the sacraments is perhaps unlike other Evangelical churches but speaks of graces:

Hmm, that’s interesting news to me…they’re a Conservative Congregational Church Conference member, so they’d be a conservative branch from the same roots as what is now called the United Church of Christ. I see they’re in Lancaster MA, and I found some others with the same denominational name in New England. They appear to be the Evangelical counterpart of the UCC from what I could tell.

The link to the Savoy Declaration was worthwhile reading. Thanks for that.

Sorry for being confusing… the Evangelical Congregational Church denomination in PA which I grew up in comes from a different background. This ECC runs The Evangelical Seminary which is interdenominational, but from this history: evangelical.edu/history/…the first paragraph gives a brief account of the start of this ECC in PA.

 

[ltwin]

I’m not sure how hot they would be over saying “I believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church”

It shouldn’t be a problem, since “catholic” simply “universal” and Protestants do believe in a universal church. I remember memorizing the Apostle’s Creed in chapel at my Pentecostal-run, broadly evangelical Christian academy. We didn’t change the words or anything.

Confessing one baptism for the forgiveness of sins is increasingly an issue too. Protestantism is undergoing a transformation, as the traditional so-called mainline denominations are waning in relevancy and being replaced with pentecostal / charismatic / restoration / non-denominational groups. The entire concept of a ‘sacrament’ is fading out; I know growing up, the idea of it was foreign to me. It’s starting to now just hinge entirely on the idea of repenting and accepting Jesus as your savior, and the other stuff is basically an ordinance that you go through with. Communion is commemorative, baptism is a symbolic act of your acceptance, etc. With this view in mind, there isn’t too much qualm over the idea of baptizing a person again when they want to recommit themselves to Jesus. It truly is starting to morph to the point of being two separate religions, although the CC does consider itself in partial communion with these newer groups (excluding Mormons/JW/a few other sects).

It’s not really as big of a problem. Just because some evangelical groups may see nothing wrong with someone being re-baptized if they so choose, its not canceling out the first baptism. And there are many ways to comprehend “one baptism for the remission of sins.” The language is biblical, so placed in the proper biblical context its something that plenty can affirm.

And I have no idea where you are getting that “sacraments” are fading out. If anything, I’ve heard and read more talk about sacramental theology in evangelical circles in the last 5 years.

The prospect of this is mixed. On one hand, much of the inspiration for these new churches is a response to the watered down moral theology and spirituality of the mainline denominations. People are starving for mysticism, and so are flocking away from mainline protestantism into churches where there is passion and charismatics, and where they continue to be stalwart against secular liberal morality. Many of them, I believe, are hungry for the Catholic Church, though they know not. These groups make natural allies to orthodox Catholics as far as the political landscape is concerned. On the other hand, the concept of organized religion (liturgy) and sacraments is more distant to these groups than ever before. This makes these groups sporadic and unpredictable, with no visible anchor to hold them in place.

Not all evangelical churches are Pentecostal, charismatic, or mystical. Many evangelicals are positively horrified by any hint of any of that stuff. John MacArthur, whose been mentioned on this thread before, is one of those. He’s been making a lot of news in evangelical circles lately with his anti-charismatic conferences.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Hmm, that’s interesting news to me…they’re a Conservative Congregational Church Conference member, so they’d be a conservative branch from the same roots as what is now called the United Church of Christ. I see they’re in Lancaster MA, and I found some others with the same denominational name in New England. They appear to be the Evangelical counterpart of the UCC from what I could tell.

The link to the Savoy Declaration was worthwhile reading. Thanks for that.

Sorry for being confusing… the Evangelical Congregational Church denomination in PA which I grew up in comes from a different background. This ECC runs The Evangelical Seminary which is interdenominational, but from this history: evangelical.edu/history/…the first paragraph gives a brief account of the start of this ECC in PA.

I also found ‘The Cambridge Platform’ on the Congregational church in MA [not PA] website. Can that statement of faith apply to other Evangelicals?

CHAPTER II.

Of The Nature Of The Catholic Church In General,

And In Special Of A Particular Visible Church.

1. The Catholic Church Is The Whole Company Of Those That Are Elected, Redeemed, And In Time Effectually Called From The State Of Sin And Death Unto A State Of Grace And Salvation In Jesus Christ.
   americanphilosophy.net/cambridge_platform.htm

 

[Eldee]

I define evangelical as a group of Christians with a strong, rudimentary faith in Jesus,…

Hi Sensei,
I define them as very important allies in the struggle against the forces that would like to strip all Christians of their rights and erase their heritage. I would say they take their numbers from the more conservative elements of mailine Protestant denominations. You will often find them in the front ranks of efforts to defend principles that Catholics hold dear, such as the right to life and the time honored definition of marriage.
I thank God for their sincerity, I thank them for helping us initiate “reformation”, and I pray they will someday return to the fold.

 

[dronald]

Hi Sensei,
I define them as very important allies in the struggle against the forces that would like to strip all Christians of their rights and erase their heritage. I would say they take their numbers from the more conservative elements of mailine Protestant denominations. You will often find them in the front ranks of efforts to defend principles that Catholics hold dear, such as the right to life and the time honored definition of marriage.
I thank God for their sincerity, I thank them for helping us initiate “reformation”, and I pray they will someday return to the fold.

I would like to take a moment here to just say God bless you. We love all of course but we really do appreciate this view towards us. We’re not as radical as some may think but we’re certainly handing out Gospels of John in busy neighborhoods, setting up Q&A booths and going to poverish countries. We love Catholics and all they do for the Word and we pray that you love us too.

…and we know you do

 

[Brandall]

Ltwin,

I understand that baptist must "hold their own churches " but to be called baptist they must join a baptist organization/denomination that has prescribed doctrine for those denominations. For example the Southern a Baptist Convention. The individual church could leave and join another group at some point but would no longer be “southern baptist” or “american baptist” or a number of others.

Evangelical churches , in general can be free or non denominational, or part of the EFCA or not and be called evangelical.

Um, no. Baptists do not have to follow a Prescribed doctrine from a convention. They are completely autonomous.

 

[Contarini]

Ltwin,

I understand that baptist must "hold their own churches " but to be called baptist they must join a baptist organization/denomination that has prescribed doctrine for those denominations. For example the Southern a Baptist Convention. The individual church could leave and join another group at some point but would no longer be “southern baptist” or “american baptist” or a number of others.

Right. But they would still be Baptists.

You don’t have to be part of any larger organization to be a Baptist.

In fact, the moderate/liberal wing of what used to be the Southern Baptist Convention would argue that the current SBC has abandoned its Baptist principles by trying to force everyone to adhere to certain beliefs and practices.

Edwin

 

[ltwin]

Right. But they would still be Baptists.

You don’t have to be part of any larger organization to be a Baptist.

In fact, the moderate/liberal wing of what used to be the Southern Baptist Convention would argue that the current SBC has abandoned its Baptist principles by trying to force everyone to adhere to certain beliefs and practices.

Edwin

Yeah, and even after the “Conservative Resurgence” of the 1980s, it’s still incredibly easy to become an SBC affiliated church. It’s only real requirements are:

Article III. Membership: The Convention shall consist of messengers who are members of missionary Baptist churches cooperating with the Convention as follows:

1. One (1) messenger from each church which: (1) Is in friendly cooperation with the Convention and sympathetic with its purposes and work. Among churches not in cooperation with the Convention are churches which act to affirm, approve, or endorse homosexual behavior. And, (2) Has been a bona fide contributor to the Convention’s work during the fiscal year preceding.

1. One (1) additional messenger from each such church for every two hundred and fifty (250) members; or for each $250.00 paid to the work of the Convention during the fiscal year preceding the annual meeting.

From the SBC Constitution.

So, basically the only thing a church has to do to be part of the Southern Baptist Convention is not ordain practicing homosexuals and give a few hundred dollars to the Cooperative Program each year.

 

[jburg6]

I’m jumping in late on this conversation, but let me put my 2 cents out there.

I would consider myself to be an evangelical Christian. I grew up in Baptist churches and my dad is a Baptist preacher. In fact, I go to a Baptist church right now. But I do not consider myself to be “Baptist”, but rather non-denominational. Perhaps that is a discussion for another day.

On topic, the people I have been around who are non-Catholic Christians have a loving attitude toward all people, and believe that anyone who believes on Jesus can be saved, regardless of denomination. They do not hate Catholics or put down their religion. My dad does not bash Catholicism. I am nice and try to show love to all people I meet, whether catholic, JW, methodist, etc. A person of catholic faith is welcome to come to our church at any time and they will not be shunned. Just expect there to be huge differences in styles of worship. There are some big differences in belief systems. Most baptists will tell you that catholic fundamentals are wrong, and vice versa. However, I don’t feel this should prevent us from realizing the big picture- the saving grace of Jesus.

 

[simspt]

Hi everyone…

I wonder if any Catholics here have had any significant interactions with evangelical christians?

If so, what do they think of us? It seems in recent years, that many do in fact consider us “christians” and are willing to overlook our differences. Many believe we are saved… as if they knew…

I could be wrong, but the whole notion of Catholics as “Idol worshipin’, pagan idolaters” seems to be one from the past ( albeit still exiting among groups such as Westboro baptist Church"

I live in Minnesota. The only biggest faith group here are the Lutherans, a pretty tame and tolerant bunch, despite their doctrinal errors

Any thouhgts?

Without a doubt the most common characteristic among Evangelical fundamentalists I know (and I know quite a few) is a lack of knowledge regarding theology, history and Catholic doctrine. Their overall impression of Catholics is that we have been deceived into believing a bunch of false teachings that are unscriptural.
Contarini’s first post sums it up perfectly.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

I know right. It seems to me that what Catholics often describe as evangelical teaching isn’t evangelicalism at all but semi-Pelagianism.

To be fair, an Evangelical (Baptist) church nearby recently had their sign reading, “You make the choice, God makes the change.” That sounds like a textbook definition of semipelagianism to me.

 

[ltwin]

To be fair, an Evangelical (Baptist) church nearby recently had their sign reading, “You make the choice, God makes the change.” That sounds like a textbook definition of semipelagianism to me.

Well, church signs aren’t the best medium for conveying deep theology. However, the Baptist Church is probably trying to emphasize that humans have free will (we have to make a choice to respond either positively or negatively to God’s grace and the Holy Spirit’s conviction) but at the same time the change of heart and life can’t come from within ourselves but only from divine intervention.

I don’t think the Baptist church meant to deny the existence of prevenient grace, but I can understand why that sign raises eyebrows.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

I don’t think we can deny that there are many semipelagian Evangelicals (if my experiences are anything to go by), but I’m sure that is more a consequence of insufficient consideration than obstinate heresy. It would be naive to pretend that all Evangelicals (or Catholics for that matter), even all pastors, are so throughly catechized that they will never fall into error.

 

[ltwin]

I don’t disagree that many (maybe even a majority) of American Christians, whatever their denomination, understand their faith in semipelagian terms. I think that is actually more of a symptom of US culture and poor/simplistic church teaching.

However, I feel that sometimes when topics like this come up on CAF, there are posters who take the worst articulation of evangelical theology and pit it against better articulations of Catholic theology.

I can take the most theologically uneducated and disinterested Catholic and compare his/her articulation of Catholic theology with a sermon by John Piper. However, that won’t actually give me a correct idea of Catholic theology versus evangelical theology.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

That’s a good point. It’s important to take the best articulations of either poisition. It’s also important not to force either view into a box just to score points. I find this to be a big problem that makes it hard to have any productive dialogue with Reformed Christians because usually the dialogue ends quickly and a monologue begins with a barrage of stock phrases like “another gospel” and “the sufficiency of the Cross.” Then on the Catholic side, you have people babbling on about how Martin Luther added “faith alone” to the Bible.

 

[Iheartcoffee]

Normally they are ignorant of Catholicism and do see them as People who worship Mary. The statues and the veneration confuse them.

Often they think Catholics aren’t Christian by name. For example they’ll say “the Catholics do this but Christians do that” which is a pet peeve of mine.

I’m an ardent defender of Catholicism at my Church, I’m sure many here would be proud. Most people (like 95 percent) don’t think about it though. Evangelicals are often happy to just love Christ and treat everyone of every Faith to act as Christ would command us.

I appreciate your defense. Perhaps the best way to dispel misinformation and stereotypes is for non-Catholics to be the ones to say, “That isn’t what Catholics really believe.” Because you are not Catholic, those at your church are perhaps more ready to believe you. Thank you!