Interceding from the dead?

[guanophore]

Just to give my 2 cents worth, I would first point out that those who have left this life to go to Heaven are described as being asleep in the Lord (see 1 Cor 15, 1 Thes 4 and 2 Peter 3 for a few Scripture references).  Job's friends were told to ask Job to pray for them, but Job had not "fallen asleep" before God told them to do this (and Job had to be living here on Earth in order to make the sacrifice for his friends, right?).

Yes, but this does not mean that their spirits and souls are not awake and attentive to what is happening here on earth. The term “asleep” is used of those who have passed beyond the boundaries of this life into the next. Just as Jesus raised the little girl who had died, but told the mourners she was “asleep”. He spoke to her (though she was dead) and told her to get up.

Mark 5:35-43

35 While he was still speaking, some people came from the leader’s house to say, “Your daughter is dead. Why trouble the teacher any further?” 36 But overhearing what they said, Jesus said to the leader of the synagogue, “Do not fear, only believe.” 37 He allowed no one to follow him except Peter, James, and John, the brother of James. 38 When they came to the house of the leader of the synagogue, he saw a commotion, people weeping and wailing loudly. 39 When he had entered, he said to them, “Why do you make a commotion and weep? The child is not dead but sleeping.” 40 And they laughed at him. Then he put them all outside, and took the child’s father and mother and those who were with him, and went in where the child was. 41 He took her by the hand and said to her, “Talitha cum,” which means, “Little girl, get up!” 42 And immediately the girl got up and began to walk about (she was twelve years of age). At this they were overcome with amazement. 43 He strictly ordered them that no one should know this, and told them to give her something to eat.

We can see that those who have gone on before us in faith are alive and aware of what happens here on earth. Moses and Elijah spoke with Jesus about his imminent “departure”.(Luke 9:31). Samuel speaks to Saul about his upcoming “departure” and that of his sons. (I Sam 28:15). and in Revelation we see those who have been martryd awake and praying under the altar and aware of others who are also being martyred.

And let’s take a closer look at Matt 18:19

I notice it say, “if two of you on earth” (emphasis mine). Do you think those who are “asleep in the Lord” are still “on Earth”? Could you please tell me which church document would back up such a claim?

The fact that two or more on earth can join in prayer does not prohibit those who have gone on before us joining us in prayer. God can do whatever He wants, and if he allows saints and angels to be present on earth, He can.

As far as the Elders found in Revelation, who are these guys? If I’m going to pray to someone besides God, I’d like a name. Is one of them Mary? How about Peter, or Paul? Maybe Abraham is one of them. We’re not told, and I believe for a very good reason, namely, don’t pray to anyone EXCEPT God!

You must keep your own conscience about it, of course, but those of Apostolic faith have PLENTY of names! We have all those OT saints listed in Heb. 11, as well as all those who have given their lives for Christ after He was raised, beginning with St. Stephen. What evidence do you have that communion has been broken with those who have gone before us in faith?

Luke 20:35-39
36 Indeed they cannot die anymore, because they are like angels and are children of God, being children of the resurrection. 37 And the fact that the dead are raised Moses himself showed, in the story about the bush, where he speaks of the Lord as the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 38 Now he is God not of the dead, but of the living; for to him all of them are alive."

Jesus teaches us that they are “like the angels”. Clearly the angels come and go here on earth, and are aware of what is happening here. The saints can also know whatever God allows them to know. To Him, all of them are alive.

While it's true that we can pray for each other (and we have been commanded to do so), there is nothing that indicates this applies to anyone who is "asleep".  One last question - how loud do you have to pray to be heard by someone who is "asleep in the Lord"?  I remember that Jesus called in a loud voice for Lazarus to come forth (and He's God incarnate!).

You are thinking according to the flesh, and not the Spirit. When Jesus teaches that those who have gone on before us in faith are “like the angels” he means that they are eternal, and that they do not have physical bodies (yet). Therefore they do not “hear” our prayers with ears. The same question can be asked, how “loud” do you have to pray to be heard by God, since he is also Spirit, and does not hear with ears?

Jesus called in a loud voice to Lazarus for the same reason given in the Scripture.

John 11:41-43
And Jesus looked upward and said, “Father, I thank you for having heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I have said this for the sake of the crowd standing here, so that they may believe that you sent me.”

By what authority do you separate yourself from the Teachings of the Apostles, that the Saints who have gone on before us in faith remain in communion with us, as we are all One in the Body of Christ?

 

[onemangang]

These can be found very clearly within the Scriptures, but that’s not the topic.

Unless you are Oneness pentacostal, JW, Some Messianic Jew groups, Arians, or others that just must not see the Trinity so clearly? Or all those “Calvinist” of different strains that deny Free-will, to the point of hard determinism, they must just not see Free-will so clearly either? Why exactly do things have to be clearly spelled out in the bible for people to believe them? Are all your beliefs clearly spelled out in the bible, or do you make some great inferences, based upon your faith tradition?

I would say he’s “interceding” in the same way the UPS guy “intercedes” by delivering a package. Furthermore, the Scripture makes a distinction between Angels and Saints .

Ok, I can accept that, I talk with my UPS driver all the time, Michael is a great guy

I would point out that the topic is not whether or not the deuterocanonical books are Scripture, so I won’t go down that rabbit trail. Next, I would hope people can see that, even though I don’t accept Tobit as Scripture, I am still responding to claims made from this source, not just saying, “It’s not Scripture, so it doesn’t matter”.

Ok, great, because it would be difficult to show the seedling of a doctrine that has been passed down through Sacred Tradition, if you would not give any credence to the scripture it came from

I believe if you read this account in Daniel you will find that Michael was helping Gabriel get through to Daniel with a message from God. Daniel was praying directly to God, the Angels were acting on orders from God, and what we see clearly is Angels functioning as God created them to function.

I noted that is was by God’s commission, do you think that Catholics believe that the Angels and Saints are acting apart from God’s will by interceding in prayer?

Excuse me, but where in Scripture do you find any Angel taking prayers to God from more than one person? I suppose a single Angel could take a bunch of prayers from people that pray in a group (like a prayer meeting or church service), but I’m unaware of anywhere in Scripture where an Angel takes prayers to God from more than one person at a time. I do find mention of multiple Angels going to and from Earth, and we know from Scripture that our Guarding Angel sees the face of God. In light of this, I don’t find any relevance to your question about Angels being omniscient or omnipresent.

So though taketh away, then giveth back (Bold mine)

Did you make an inference unto believing an angel could take prayers from a meeting or service, or was that clearly spelled out in scripture?

It seems that you limit the Angel to time and space by your inference of one person, prayer meeting, or service, do you?

Revelation 5:8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints:

Revelation 8:3 And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God.

One angel has "golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints:"

Full seems like more than one prayer from one person (or prayer group praying at the same time) The other Angel has **“much **incense” and “offer prayers of all saints” Seem like more than one prayer at a time to me!

 

[Cachonga]

guanophore:

Yes, but this does not mean that their spirits and souls are not awake and attentive to what is happening here on earth. The term “asleep” is used of those who have passed beyond the boundaries of this life into the next. Just as Jesus raised the little girl who had died, but told the mourners she was “asleep”. He spoke to her (though she was dead) and told her to get up.

Can’t God raise the dead? Sure, Peter raised a woman, and there were a couple in the OT that were raised, but I would hope we could agree that this was done by the power and will of God. Furthermore, we have no record of what they experienced while they were “asleep”, so to say they were aware of what was going on here on Earth doesn’t necessarily follow. Pointing to Moses, Elijah and Samuel, I don’t believe, is evidence for your assertion. Remember, these men are prophets of God. As such, they were privy to information not available to everyone else. But we also have something else to consider -
1 Kings 22:19-23 (NASB):

And Micaiah said, "Therefore, hear the word of the LORD. I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right and on His left. "And the LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said this while another said that. "Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD and said, ‘I will entice him.’ "And the LORD said to him, ‘How?’ And he said, ‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then He said, ‘You are to entice [him] and also prevail. Go and do so.’ “Now therefore, behold, the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and the LORD has proclaimed disaster against you.”

Seems to me that anyone who heard this exchange in Heaven would know what was coming for Ahab. As far as the “spirits under the alter” in Revelation, where does it say they were aware of what was going on on Earth? I would suggest that they knew the end had not yet come because they were still under the alter, and they were told that others would be coming, but I don’t see that they were aware without being told.

The fact that two or more on earth can join in prayer does not prohibit those who have gone on before us joining us in prayer. God can do whatever He wants, and if he allows saints and angels to be present on earth, He can.

I agree – IF God allows it, it will happen. The problem is, the Catholic Church says He does, but Scripture doesn’t back up the claim.

You must keep your own conscience about it, of course, but those of Apostolic faith have PLENTY of names! We have all those OT saints listed in Heb. 11, as well as all those who have given their lives for Christ after He was raised, beginning with St. Stephen. What evidence do you have that communion has been broken with those who have gone before us in faith?

So the 24 Elders are actually a multitude of Saints? Which of the 24 Elders is Mary? Or Peter? The fact is, they’re not named, they’re not even identified as Saints. You are reading into the text something that isn’t there.

Jesus teaches us that they are “like the angels”. Clearly the angels come and go here on earth, and are aware of what is happening here. The saints can also know whatever God allows them to know. To Him, all of them are alive.

Is this really honest argumentation? What is the context? Weren’t the Sadducees trying to trip up Jesus with the story of 7 brothers who married the same woman and all died childless, and they wanted to know whose wife she would be in the resurrection? I would say, in light of that context, that the Saints are like the Angels in that there is no need for marriage (just as Jesus said, if you would read a little more beyond your citation).

You are thinking according to the flesh, and not the Spirit. When Jesus teaches that those who have gone on before us in faith are “like the angels” he means that they are eternal, and that they do not have physical bodies (yet). Therefore they do not “hear” our prayers with ears. The same question can be asked, how “loud” do you have to pray to be heard by God, since he is also Spirit, and does not hear with ears?

It seems to me, in light of my previous response, that you are misrepresenting what the Scriptures teach. You accuse me of “thinking according to the flesh”, but then you make assertions based on the verse you cited without regard to the context (which includes an explanation from Jesus Himself).

Jesus called in a loud voice to Lazarus for the same reason given in the Scripture.

I was wondering when someone would catch that. Of course, when he raised the other 2 people He didn’t use a loud voice (as far as we know).

By what authority do you separate yourself from the Teachings of the Apostles, that the Saints who have gone on before us in faith remain in communion with us, as we are all One in the Body of Christ?

This is a question of authority, and is not the topic of this thread.

 

[Cachonga]

onemangang:

Unless you are Oneness pentacostal, JW, Some Messianic Jew groups, Arians, or others that just must not see the Trinity so clearly? Or all those “Calvinist” of different strains that deny Free-will, to the point of hard determinism, they must just not see Free-will so clearly either? Why exactly do things have to be clearly spelled out in the bible for people to believe them? Are all your beliefs clearly spelled out in the bible, or do you make some great inferences, based upon your faith tradition?

I’ll be happy to answer if you can explain how this is relevant to the topic.

Ok, I can accept that, I talk with my UPS driver all the time, Michael is a great guy

Wow! You completely missed the broadside of the barn! Maybe I should try and explain this a little better.

Tobit prays to God (you send a package to your friend).
Raphael take the prayer to God (UPS delivers the package).

It does not work like this –

You talk to your UPS guy (pray to saint/angel).
You ask them to make and deliver a package (make request).
Expect them to deliver their own package to your friend.

Tell you what, ask your UPS guy to send me a box of cash, but don’t give him/her/it anything other than the request. If I get the package, I will admit that you’re right.

I noted that is was by God’s commission, do you think that Catholics believe that the Angels and Saints are acting apart from God’s will by interceding in prayer?

I think Catholics presume that God is allowing communication with those who have gone on to their reward. If He is, why do we not have any clear indication of this in Scripture? Paul (and others) certainly had opportunity to pray to Stephen, whom he had “helped” to martyr. Not to get off topic, but why didn’t the idol makers in Ephesus stop making idols of Diana and start making “images” of Stephen, James, etc… (they could have even made true images of Paul, Peter, John and maybe even Mary)? That would have ended their complaint about losing money (if the early church actually used images of saints and angels in any way).

Did you make an inference unto believing an angel could take prayers from a meeting or service, or was that clearly spelled out in scripture?

I’ll be happy to answer if you can explain how this is relevant to the topic.

It seems that you limit the Angel to time and space by your inference of one person, prayer meeting, or service, do you?

Seems clear to me that when the Angels are here on Earth, they are subject to our time limits. Angels are not omnipresent, so they can only be at one location at a time, hence the apparent limitation. I do believe they can move very fast, so I acknowledge the possibility that they can appear to be in several places at the same time. However, given the large number of Angels, it seems unlikely that they need to move around that fast.

One angel has “golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints:”

Actually, that’s what the Elders (or Ancients) had. We aren’t told if they’re Angels or Saints (I would suggest that since they are grouped together with the 4 living creatures, then they are neither Saints not Angels, but a separate class of being created by God, but that’s just my opinion).

Full seems like more than one prayer from one person (or prayer group praying at the same time) The other Angel has “much incense” and “offer prayers of all saints” Seem like more than one prayer at a time to me!

So what? I have a filing cabinet that is full of all kinds of documents. Are you saying that God can’t save prayers in bowls or incense, as He pleases? Surely you’ve prayed more than one prayer in your life. Why can’t God put all of your prayers in a single grain of incense (for example)? Why couldn’t God put all the prayers from America in a single vial? And where in the text do you see that these are prayers that had been prayed to the one’s making the offerings?

 

[guanophore]

These can be found very clearly within the Scriptures, but that’s not the topic.

The point being made about the word Trinity is that it is part of Sacred Tradition. The Catholic Church is not “bible based” as evangelical ecclesial communities are. Our faith is not extrapolated from the pages of Scripture, but handed down to us from the Apostles. That is why there are some beliefs and practices that are not explicit in scripture, such as the Trinity and communion of saints. The doctrine of Christ left with the Church through the Apostles was whole and entire before a word of the NT was ever written. There was never any effort made to encompass the whole faith in it, because it was never meant to be separated from the Sacred Tradition that produced it.

I would say he’s “interceding” in the same way the UPS guy “intercedes” by delivering a package. Furthermore, the Scripture makes a distinction between Angels and Saints .

I don’t think this quite captures it, since when we pray to angels and saints, they PARTICIPATE in the prayer the way a delivery person does not.

The intercession of the saints is based upon a collection of concepts. One has been made above, that those who fall asleep in Christ are not “dead” but alive. Another is here:

James 5:16
The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective.

We believe those in heaven have been perfected in righteousness, and therefore have very powerful prayers.

Another foundation point of the concept is that we remain in communion with those that have passed on, since nothing can separate any of us from the love of God. Many who reject intercession of the saints do so because they reject this element of the Aposltes’ creed.

 

[guanophore]

Can’t God raise the dead?  Sure, Peter raised a woman, and there were a couple in the OT that were raised, but I would hope we could agree that this was done by the power and will of God.

Yes, of course!

 Furthermore, we have no record of what they experienced while they were “asleep”, so to say they were aware of what was going on here on Earth doesn’t necessarily follow.  Pointing to Moses, Elijah and Samuel, I don’t believe, is evidence for your assertion.  Remember, these men are prophets of God.  As such, they were privy to information not available to everyone else.

My point is that the veil of the Body does not separate “life” in the soul. Those who appeara to be asleep, or who are actually “asleep” (like Lazarus, who the Lord clearly stated had died) is not a barrier.

I think that you have just confirmed my point about the prophets. Their knowledge of the events on earth had not changed or diminished thought they had passed beyond the boundaries of this world. They clearly had awareness of events and were able to communicate about it to people who were still in the body here on earth. This shows that their state of existence is not one of “soul sleep” as is commonly misunderstood.

But we also have something else to consider -

Seems to me that anyone who heard this exchange in Heaven would know what was coming for Ahab. As far as the “spirits under the alter” in Revelation, where does it say they were aware of what was going on on Earth? I would suggest that they knew the end had not yet come because they were still under the alter, and they were told that others would be coming, but I don’t see that they were aware without being told.

My point is that they are “awake” and in conversation with the Lord about what is happening on earth.

I agree – IF God allows it, it will happen. The problem is, the Catholic Church says He does, but Scripture doesn’t back up the claim.

So the 24 Elders are actually a multitude of Saints?  Which of the 24 Elders is Mary?  Or Peter?  The fact is, they’re not named, they’re not even identified as Saints.  You are reading into the text something that isn’t there.

I never asserted such a thing. But it is true that there is a multitude of saints inheaven that are alive and praising the Lamb. We have communion with them, because we are all members of the same body of Christ.

Is this really honest argumentation?  What is the context?  Weren’t the Sadducees trying to trip up Jesus with the story of 7 brothers who married the same woman and all died childless, and they wanted to know whose wife she would be in the resurrection?  I would say, in light of that context, that the Saints are like the Angels in that there is no need for marriage (just as Jesus said, if you would read a little more beyond your citation).

I agree. My point is that the souls of those who die in fellowship with Christ are “alive and awake” in heaven. Are you assuming that the story Jesus told of Lazarus and the rich man does not have a foundation in reality? Jesus is clear in this parable that those who die are aware of what is going on here. Or do you think He would teach error, in saying the rich man asking the Lord to send word to his brothers?

It seems to me, in light of my previous response, that you are misrepresenting what the Scriptures teach. You accuse me of “thinking according to the flesh”, but then you make assertions based on the verse you cited without regard to the context (which includes an explanation from Jesus Himself).

Not at all. On the contrary, I contend that the scriptures don’t “teach” at all! People teach. What we understand the Scriptures to mean is, in large part, how we approach them and our preconceived notions. It seems one notion you have is that all Christian practice should come out of the Scripture. This is one of the tenents of Sola Scriptura, a position that is not consistent with the teaching of the Apostles.

That being said, the point I am trying to make about thinking according to the flesh is that we here on earth exist in a space time continuum. Those who have passed on are not bound to it.

 

[guanophore]

It does not work like this –

As you have accurately pointed out, God can make it work however He wants.

Tell you what, ask your UPS guy to send me a box of cash, but don’t give him/her/it anything other than the request. If I get the package, I will admit tha t you’re right.

LOL I love that!

I think Catholics presume that God is allowing communication with those who have gone on to their reward.

Not a “presumption” but it is one of the elements of the once for all divine deposit of faith that was entrusted to the Church. It was a practice before the NT was written.

If He is, why do we not have any clear indication of this in Scripture?

Because the One Faith is intended to be handed down through the paradosis, not extrapoliated from between the words 2000 years after the fact. The NT is a collection of writings made over many decades. It is not a manual of the faith, nor was it ever intended to be. It is profitable in forming the faithful, but it is not the only source of authority and practice. Neither does it claim to be.

Paul (and others) certainly had opportunity to pray to Stephen, whom he had “helped” to martyr. Not to get off topic, but why didn’t the idol makers in Ephesus stop making idols of Diana and start making “images” of Stephen, James, etc… (they could have even made true images of Paul, Peter, John and maybe even Mary)? That would have ended their complaint about losing money (if the early church actually used images of saints and angels in any way).

And they did pray to them, so we follow their example. What happened in Ephesus was much to soon in the history of the faith to have such a result. Such changes did not occur until Christianity was decrimminialized in 312 and later. At that point we do see the plethora of saints produced by artists. Prior to that time we have prayers to the saints scrawled on the walls of the undreground tombs and in caves.

Seems clear to me that when the Angels are here on Earth, they are subject to our time limits.

Really?

  Angels are not omnipresent, so they can only be at one location at a time, hence the apparent limitation.

Since what we see is an appearance, I don’t know that we can confine the heavenly beings this way. The truth is that if God wanted a certain angel to appear to mulitple people in multiple places at the same time, He could certainly do so. However I agree with you. I don’ tthink they are omnipresent either.

I do believe they can move very fast, so I acknowledge the possibility that they can appear to be in several places at the same time.  However, given the large number of Angels, it seems unlikely that they need to move around that fast.

Again you are thinking according to the flesh. The idea of physcial movement, and speed, are within the space time continuum, which angels are not.

So what? I have a filing cabinet that is full of all kinds of documents. Are you saying that God can’t save prayers in bowls or incense, as He pleases?

Of course.

Surely you’ve prayed more than one prayer in your life. Why can’t God put all of your prayers in a single grain of incense (for example)? Why couldn’t God put all the prayers from America in a single vial? And where in the text do you see that these are prayers that had been prayed to the one’s making the offerings?

God can do whatever He wants.

Unlike yourself, I am not confined to the text, as I do not embrace the error of Sola Scriptura.

I would stipulate, though, that we do not know what happens to our prayers, whether God collects them together, stores them, applies them whereever they are needed, or what. We are commmanded to pray, so we do. We are taught that our prayers are mingled with those who are in heaven, and that they can interceded for us, so we act in accordance with what Jesus and the Apostles taught.

 

[onemangang]

I’ll be happy to answer if you can explain how this is relevant to the topic.

It is relevant in this manner, people make inferences, or extrapolate certain things from scripture, when things are not clear through their faith tradition, my Tradition is Catholic, and has been handed on from Christ to the Apostles, in unbroken succession till the present day! All though some of these Traditions are not clearly spelled out in Scripture, they often have their seed contained in Sacred Scripture, like Mary being the New Eve, Arc of the New Covenant, Sinless, and perpetual virgin! In the light of Sacred Tradition, these truths are seen within Sacred Scripture, removed from Sacred Tradition, people come up with all sorts of different assertions!

Wow! You completely missed the broadside of the barn! Maybe I should try and explain this a little better.

Tobit prays to God (you send a package to your friend).
Raphael take the prayer to God (UPS delivers the package).

It does not work like this –

You talk to your UPS guy (pray to saint/angel).
You ask them to make and deliver a package (make request).
Expect them to deliver their own package to your friend.

Tell you what, ask your UPS guy to send me a box of cash, but don’t give him/her/it anything other than the request. If I get the package, I will admit that you’re right.

It was called Sarcasm

I communicate with my UPS guy (Saint, Angel) only due to the fact that He has been sent out, by He who has the Authority to send (God)

If I ask my UPS guy (Saint, Angel) for “a box of cash,” it would be under the assumption, that He would have to ask his Boss, on my behalf, I would not be naive enough to think that he could deliver, what is not in his power to do, without the proper Authority, authorizing and commissioning him to deliver!

I think Catholics presume that God is allowing communication with those who have gone on to their reward. If He is, why do we not have any clear indication of this in Scripture? Paul (and others) certainly had opportunity to pray to Stephen, whom he had “helped” to martyr. Not to get off topic, but why didn’t the idol makers in Ephesus stop making idols of Diana and start making “images” of Stephen, James, etc… (they could have even made true images of Paul, Peter, John and maybe even Mary)? That would have ended their complaint about losing money (if the early church actually used images of saints and angels in any way).

Why must a practice, be clearly derived from Scripture? The Church was proclaiming Christ, on Tradition, before Scripture was written and compiled, so I see no need to remove Sacred Tradition from Scripture, doing so produces what we have today, another gospel!

I’ll be happy to answer if you can explain how this is relevant to the topic.

Why is it relevant that you deduced that an Angel can take more than one prayer from one person at a time before the Throne? I would say that it shows that, there work load is not something restricted by time and space as we know it!

Seems clear to me that when the Angels are here on Earth, they are subject to our time limits. Angels are not omnipresent, so they can only be at one location at a time, hence the apparent limitation. I do believe they can move very fast, so I acknowledge the possibility that they can appear to be in several places at the same time. However, given the large number of Angels, it seems unlikely that they need to move around that fast.

Ok, when an Angel is on Earth, but that is not what Catholics are doing, in case you haven’t noticed, we are not going to some Angel depot on earth, talking to an angel in their little booth, and then leaving, assuming the Angel will depart to go home afterwards!

We ask Angels and Saint whom are now Celestial beings, not Physical beings to pray for us. Celestial beings do not have the same limitations as a physical beings!

Actually, that’s what the Elders (or Ancients) had. We aren’t told if they’re Angels or Saints (I would suggest that since they are grouped together with the 4 living creatures, then they are neither Saints not Angels, but a separate class of being created by God, but that’s just my opinion).

So the 4 living creatures are not Saints or Angels, then what are they?

I would posit that these 4 living creatures are Angels of some sort, like Throne bearing Cherubim, but still angelic beings of some sort!

So what? I have a filing cabinet that is full of all kinds of documents. Are you saying that God can’t save prayers in bowls or incense, as He pleases? Surely you’ve prayed more than one prayer in your life. Why can’t God put all of your prayers in a single grain of incense (for example)? Why couldn’t God put all the prayers from America in a single vial? And where in the text do you see that these are prayers that had been prayed to the one’s making the offerings?

I don’t see it, but then again I don’t see how the bible is the SOLE authority on such matters either!

 

[Ruthie_again]

Originally Posted by Cachonga
Plus, what does the location of the physical body have to do with the question?

Because of this:

Originally Posted by Cachonga
And let’s take a closer look at Matt 18:19

I notice it say, “if two of you on earth” (emphasis mine). Do you think those who are “asleep in the Lord” are still "on Earth?

Perhaps I misinterpreted it. You seemed to be implying that one can not be in Heaven if one’s body was still on earth; I was disproving that with Scripture. I mistook you for one of those who think that nobody gets to Heaven until the Resurrection; that the dead are “asleep” until then.

Originally Posted by Cachonga
I can ask my Pastor to pray for me, but if he was to go on a vacation with his wife and not take his phone, computer, or any other communication device, how would I ask him for prayer while he’s gone? We’re both in the Body of Christ. The fact is, I would not be able to communicate my need to him while he’s gone simply because he’s in a different place. Mary, Peter, Paul, and other real Saints (not Angels who are called saints) you may want to pray to, are in Heaven (in spite of where their body may be buried), which is a different place than Earth. Scripture gives no indication that communication is possible with these people (with the possible exception of the “Witch of Endor” incident, but that involes witchcraft and necromancy, which even the Catholic Church condemns).

Bolding mine.

Of course, we don’t need a phone to contact God in prayer. We don’t need to worry about getting a busy signal, being out of range, or being one of six billion messages on His voicemail. Good thing, too. If He was limited by time, as we are, we’d be in deep kimchi. But He’s not. He is eternal and infinite. And once we are in Heaven, we are no longer limited by time. It isn’t just any old place. It is Heaven, and eternal.

You seem to think that being a human in Heaven is no different than being a human on earth. That would mean that we are not eternal there either. That would mean that the promise that we are to have eternal life is a lie.

As Guanophore said, “You are thinking according to the flesh, and not the Spirit.” You are assuming that God, the almighty, can do nothing with us beyond the limitations of our flesh.

 

[Cachonga]

Sorry for the delay. Had some personal business to take care of. I think we can sum up our differences this way -

1. Catholics seem to feel that just because nothing can seperate us from the love of God, that also means we can communicate with saints (and angels) in heaven (though they cannot communicate back with us). I accept that nothing can seperate us from the love of God, but I also accept that Saints (and Angels) are in a different place, and we cannot communicate with them.
2. Catholics seems to think those in Heaven are “outside” of time, which allows them to listen to thousands of prayers at the same time (from our perspective on earth). I believe that God, who created time, is outside of it, but His creation is within it. I see evidence from Scripture that time in Heaven appears to correspond with time on Earth (as when God was looking for a way to entice Ahab to his death). Furthermore, I believe that the ability to listen to several people at once is a divine attribute (omnipresence). I find no evidence that God has granted this attribute to any creature.

Bottom line - Catholics seem to feel it’s OK to pray to saints and angels because the “infallible” magisterium of the church has said it’s OK. I believe that if someone had been caught praying to Moses would have been stoned as an idolator by Joshua (and rightly so), and that any prayer to anyone other than God is idolatry (according to the Scriptures). God made it very clear in the OT - if that changed in the NT, why didn’t He make it just as clear?

 

[guanophore]

 Sorry for the delay.  Had some personal business to take care of.  I think we can sum up our differences this way -

1. Catholics seem to feel that just because nothing can seperate us from the love of God, that also means we can communicate with saints (and angels) in heaven (though they cannot communicate back with us). I accept that nothing can seperate us from the love of God, but I also accept that Saints (and Angels) are in a different place, and we cannot communicate with them.

Of course they can communicate! They have been communicating with the humanity since before the time of Jesus. Or do you deny that the prophet Samual actually came to Saul? Actually, heaven, purgatory, and hell are not “places” in the sense that we think of places. They exist outside the time/space continuum. They are not bound by the physics of “place”.

Who was communicating with Balaam and his donkey? (Num. 22)

It is not just the love of God that keeps us connected, but the phenomenon of the communion of saints. We have been joined together in a Body by Christ, and death does not separate us from His Body.

1. Catholics seems to think those in Heaven are “outside” of time, which allows them to listen to thousands of prayers at the same time (from our perspective on earth). I believe that God, who created time, is outside of it, but His creation is within it. I see evidence from Scripture that time in Heaven appears to correspond with time on Earth (as when God was looking for a way to entice Ahab to his death). Furthermore, I believe that the ability to listen to several people at once is a divine attribute (omnipresence). I find no evidence that God has granted this attribute to any creature.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I am interested to see any evidence you have to prove that listening to more than one person at a time is a divine attribute. I listen to groups of people every day, and hear multiple expressions simultaneously and am eager to learn that I have a divine attribute.

I am especially interested to hear your Scriptures that show that time in Heaven appears to correspond with that on earth. This is quite a novel concept for me.

God is able to allow any of His creatures to hear and answer any other creature. I think you will find this to be indisputable when you read Num 22.

Bottom line - Catholics seem to feel it’s OK to pray to saints and angels because the “infallible” magisterium of the church has said it’s OK.

Well, yes, but it far pre-dates the Church. The faithful of God have been interacting on the Spiritual plane with angels and saints long before that.

I believe that if someone had been caught praying to Moses would have been stoned as an idolator by Joshua (and rightly so), and that any prayer to anyone other than God is idolatry (according to the Scriptures). God made it very clear in the OT - if that changed in the NT, why didn’t He make it just as clear?

We have a different concept of prayer, is all. Catholics understand prayer as communication, not worship. Of course it would be idolatry to worship saints and angels, but if it is idolatry, then I don’t think Jesus would be role modeling it for His Apostles, would he?

Matt 17:1-4
Six days later, Jesus took with him Peter and James and his brother John and led them up a high mountain, by themselves. 2 And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became dazzling white. 3 Suddenly there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him. 4 Then Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if you wish, I will make three dwellings here, one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”

If Jesus did not think this was a practice the the disciples should emulate, why didn’t He keep it private?

Why would Peter offer to build tents for the visitors, if he didn’t expect them to be available to chat?

 

[onemangang]

Sorry for the delay. Had some personal business to take care of. I think we can sum up our differences this way -

1. Catholics seem to feel that just because nothing can seperate us from the love of God, that also means we can communicate with saints (and angels) in heaven (though they cannot communicate back with us). I accept that nothing can seperate us from the love of God, but I also accept that Saints (and Angels) are in a different place, and we cannot communicate with them.
2. Catholics seems to think those in Heaven are “outside” of time, which allows them to listen to thousands of prayers at the same time (from our perspective on earth). I believe that God, who created time, is outside of it, but His creation is within it. I see evidence from Scripture that time in Heaven appears to correspond with time on Earth (as when God was looking for a way to entice Ahab to his death). Furthermore, I believe that the ability to listen to several people at once is a divine attribute (omnipresence). I find no evidence that God has granted this attribute to any creature.

Bottom line - Catholics seem to feel it’s OK to pray to saints and angels because the “infallible” magisterium of the church has said it’s OK. I believe that if someone had been caught praying to Moses would have been stoned as an idolator by Joshua (and rightly so), and that any prayer to anyone other than God is idolatry (according to the Scriptures). God made it very clear in the OT - if that changed in the NT, why didn’t He make it just as clear?

So what you are saying is, you believe what you have been taught, after leaving the ONE TRUE FAITH, and you still gravely misunderstand Catholic teaching on the intercession of the Saints, by your three point strawman argument!

I find it odd that every Ex-catholic that has left the One True Faith, were not very knowledgeable on Catholic teaching to begin with, yet the Protestant that enters into full communion with the One True Faith, are often very informed. Just an observation

So many people who call themselves ex-catholics, seem to PROTEST against what they don’t understand, or the MEME the faith community they have now entered, says Catholicism is!

**1. **Does God communicate back to us, outside of reading the bible? Well, so do the Saints! I have a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with Mary and a few others

Are the Saints bound by Earthly Time Restraints? No, it would be hard to describe time in Epoch’s as we know it, but there are events going on, that does not mean Time in “Heaven” is of the same equivalence, as Earthly Epoch’s!

2 We do not place Angels as Omniscient or Omnipresent, so your strawman argument is mute. We do however recognize that Time is not the same in Christ, as it is here on Earth!

**3 ** Catholics think its OK to “pray to the Saints”, because Christ established a Church in order that we may know Him and Follow Him, so in doing so, we are following Christ! We do not separate the Magisterium, from the work of Christ!

Ephesians 3:10 That the manifold wisdom of God may be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places through the church,
11** According to the eternal purpose, which he made, in Christ Jesus our Lord:**

1 Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God,** the pillar and ground of the truth.**

You don’t seem to understand the Catholic Definition of what it means to PRAY, when we speak of “PRAYING” to the Saints. You confuse the term pray with WORSHIP!

Here is a quick definition of Prayer

Question: What Is Prayer?
Prayer is a form of communication, a way of talking to God or to the saints.
Answer:
Origins of the Word

1. To Pray:

The word “pray” comes from the Latin word precari, which simply means to entreat or ask. In fact, although pray is not often used this way anymore, it can simply mean “please,” as in “pray continue your story.”

When we speak of “praying” to the Saints it is important to understand the meaning of that word. The word “pray” does not mean to worship. It means to ask. This can be seen in King James Bible as well as more modern literature such as Shakespeare. The context shows that it just means to ask or beseech.

Genesis 13:8 “And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdmen and thy herdmen; for we be brethren.” KJV

Acts 8:34 “And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man ?” KJV

When do you think this practice of Praying to the Saints was “invented” within the life of the Church?

 

[Cachonga]

guanophore:

Of course they can communicate! They have been communicating with the humanity since before the time of Jesus. Or do you deny that the prophet Samual actually came to Saul?

Are you comparing praying to the saints in Heaven with witchcraft and necromancy? Isn’t that how King Saul communicated with Samuel?

Actually, heaven, purgatory, and hell are not “places” in the sense that we think of places. They exist outside the time/space continuum. They are not bound by the physics of “place”.

I’ve often thought that about California, too, but that doesn’t make it so. The Scriptures certainly describe these as real places. I would like to know why you think they aren’t real places, and why they are “outside the time/space continuum”.

Who was communicating with Balaam and his donkey? (Num. 22)

An Angel sent from God (although God allowed the donkey to talk on his own, and Balaam was able to see and communicate with the Angel after this). Who do you think was communicating with Balaam?

It is not just the love of God that keeps us connected, but the phenomenon of the communion of saints. We have been joined together in a Body by Christ, and death does not separate us from His Body…

We’re going in circles over this. I don’t believe we can communicate with those in Heaven any better than we can communicate with Christians in another state, you believe you can. There is no evidence in Scripture to support your claim, but, because your church says it’s so, then it must be so. I don’t accept that. So there we are!

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I am interested to see any evidence you have to prove that listening to more than one person at a time is a divine attribute. I listen to groups of people every day, and hear multiple expressions simultaneously and am eager to learn that I have a divine attribute.

Let’s say that every Sunday 1 Billion Roman Catholics make a 1 second request of Mary. That would be more than 11,500 people per second making a request of her, every second, over a 24 hour period. You claim that she can give every request her full, undivided attention, and bring these requests to Jesus. That requires omnipresence. Can you do the same? Can you listen to more than 2 people talking to you at the same time, each saying something different, and fully understand what everyone has said? If you can do that with 2 people talking to you at the same time, you’re a better multi-tasker than I am. I don’t really believe you can do it with more than 2 people talking at the same time (asking someone to repeat themselves is clear evidence that you missed something). Still think you have a divine attribute?

I am especially interested to hear your Scriptures that show that time in Heaven appears to correspond with that on earth. This is quite a novel concept for me.

Samuel was able to tell King Saul what would happen in time (that he and his sons would be with Samuel in a set time – tomorrow). There is the story of the meeting God held to see how King Ahab might be enticed to go to battle and die. This meeting was in Heaven, yet it was witnessed by the prophet, and the lying spirit that was sent did his work well. Jesus promised the repentant thief that he would be with Him in Paradise “that day”. Lazarus and the rich man died and found themselves in the afterlife, Lazarus in Abraham’s Bosom, and the rich man in Hell. They both entered these places at a point in time. In Revelation we see that as the seals are broken in Heaven judgments take place on Earth (along with the trumpet and bowl judgments). I find these sufficient evidence to show that those in Heaven are also within the same “time/space continuum” as we are (just in the spirit world, which has no night, and the occupants do not get tired).

God is able to allow any of His creatures to hear and answer any other creature. I think you will find this to be indisputable when you read Num 22.

I agree. However, this is a special occasion, and we don’t see it ever being repeated (or have you had a conversation with a barnyard animal recently?).

Well, yes, but it far pre-dates the Church. The faithful of God have been interacting on the Spiritual plane with angels and saints long before that.

Idolatry and witchcraft/necromancy is not a very convincing argument for the practice of praying to saints and angels. Or do you have some Scripture to indicate something else (more along the lines of what the church practices today).

<continued…>

 

[Cachonga]

<continued…>

We have a different concept of prayer, is all. Catholics understand prayer as communication, not worship. Of course it would be idolatry to worship saints and angels, but if it is idolatry, then I don’t think Jesus would be role modeling it for His Apostles, would he?

Are you serious? Do you really believe Matt 17:1-4 is the same thing as your praying to saints and angels in Heaven? I don’t think I’ve ever heard of anyone praying to St. Moses or St. Elijah. I don’t see anything in the Scripture to indicate that Jesus was “praying” to these men (of course, I’m using the term “prayer” the way the Scriptures use it). I would note that there was two-way communication between Jesus and both Moses and Elijah.

If Jesus did not think this was a practice the the disciples should emulate, why didn’t He keep it private?

If this was a practice Jesus taught for His disciples to emulate, why do we not find the practice recorded anywhere in Scripture? Obviously, the disciples realized this was a special event, not a lesson to be taught and practiced (otherwise, why didn’t He bring along more of the Apostles?).

Why would Peter offer to build tents for the visitors, if he didn’t expect them to be available to chat?

If you look at the parallel passage in Luke (9:28-35) you see that verse 33 says, “And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.” (KJV emphasis added).

 

[Cachonga]

onemangang:

So what you are saying is, you believe what you have been taught, after leaving the ONE TRUE FAITH, and you still gravely misunderstand Catholic teaching on the intercession of the Saints, by your three point strawman argument!

I do not like straw man arguments, and do my best to avoid them. If you could be specific as to why you feel my points are straw men, I will either explain why they are not, or apologize for using them. For example, your own argument presupposes that the catholic church is the “one true faith”, which is not even the topic of this thread. You also presume to know what I believe and when I believed it. This is clearly off topic and actually borders on ad hominem.

I find it odd that every Ex-catholic that has left the One True Faith, were not very knowledgeable on Catholic teaching to begin with, yet the Protestant that enters into full communion with the One True Faith, are often very informed. Just an observation

Presumption and off topic.

So many people who call themselves ex-catholics, seem to PROTEST against what they don’t understand, or the MEME the faith community they have now entered, says Catholicism is!

Presumption and off topic.

1. Does God communicate back to us, outside of reading the bible? Well, so do the Saints! I have a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with Mary and a few others

So when was the last time you communicated with Mary (and others) in the way Jesus talked with Moses and Elijah?

Are the Saints bound by Earthly Time Restraints? No, it would be hard to describe time in Epoch’s as we know it, but there are events going on, that does not mean Time in “Heaven” is of the same equivalence, as Earthly Epoch’s!

I keep hearing the claim, but, while I have pointed to Scriptures that I believe make my case, all I hear back is the assertion without any evidence.

2 We do not place Angels as Omniscient or Omnipresent, so your strawman argument is mute. We do however recognize that Time is not the same in Christ, as it is here on Earth!

Interesting that you didn’t include saints in this assertion. And I didn’t single out angels (though I did say “those in Heaven”, which would include Angels). It is not a strawman argument, as it was directed primarily to saints, which you neglected to address. It appears to come down to a question of time in Heaven.

3 Catholics think its OK to “pray to the Saints”, because Christ established a Church in order that we may know Him and Follow Him, so in doing so, we are following Christ! We do not separate the Magisterium, from the work of Christ!

It comes down to a question of authority. Catholics accept the “infallible” teaching magisterium of the church. I find sufficient reason to reject that authority claim (though I do recognize the authority of the Church, it is not the claimed authority of the Roman Catholic Church).

You don’t seem to understand the Catholic Definition of what it means to PRAY, when we speak of “PRAYING” to the Saints. You confuse the term pray with WORSHIP!

I understand it, but I prefer the Scriptural definition of prayer.

When do you think this practice of Praying to the Saints was “invented” within the life of the Church?

It is a practice that developed over time, and started early on in Church history. However, you will not find any of the Apostles praying to Saints or Angels in Heaven, which I would expect to see if this was an approved practice of God (isn’t He the ultimate author of Scripture?). Yes, I know not everything is recorded in Scripture. Even so, I am convinced that what we need to know IS recorded for us within the Scriptures.

 

[stevekehl]

It seems that if we can find some evidence that earthly time applies to those in heaven it would settle whether saints can intercede for us. If there is not unlimited time to hear prayers and intercede then intercession becomes a moot point. In Daniel 10, an angel is delayed for 21 days after God sends him to help Daniel. He is being resisted by the guardian angel of Persia (presumably a demon), eventually Michael comes to his aid and the angel is able to deliver God’s message to Daniel. The angel says God knew of Daniels distress as soon as it occurred and sent him with a new vision, so evidently angels are bound by earthly time, otherwise there would have been no delay.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Cachonga,

Maybe I can add to your two cents … with two of my own…

I get the impression that you think that by praying to the Saints - the Friends of God - we are somehow diminishing the sole honor we owe to God. Here is a link that may provide some necessary clarification and focus: catholic.com/tracts/praying-to-the-saints

Your ending thought to this post concerning ‘volume’ brought back a memory from 1Kings 18. The prophet Elijah made fun of the priests of Baal using a similar statement. Personally, I think if this was the analogy you intended, you have misunderstood just what it is we as practicing Catholics believe and do. It is good that this topic is brought up now - Nobember is the month when we celebrate All Saints and All Souls Day. Perhaps a better understandingof this and other aspects of the true Catholic Faith will help you return. Here are a couple of links on the Mystical Body of Christ:

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/chura1.htm

mycatholicsource.com/mcs/pc/catholic_basics/catholic_basics_church_marks_parts_pillars.htm

catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/ApostlesCreed09.shtml

I hope this helps.

God bless

Just to give my 2 cents worth, I would first point out that those who have left this life to go to Heaven are described as being asleep in the Lord (see 1 Cor 15, 1 Thes 4 and 2 Peter 3 for a few Scripture references). Job’s friends were told to ask Job to pray for them, but Job had not “fallen asleep” before God told them to do this (and Job had to be living here on Earth in order to make the sacrifice for his friends, right?). And let’s take a closer look at Matt 18:19

I notice it say, “if two of you on earth” (emphasis mine). Do you think those who are “asleep in the Lord” are still “on Earth”? Could you please tell me which church document would back up such a claim? As far as the Elders found in Revelation, who are these guys? If I’m going to pray to someone besides God, I’d like a name. Is one of them Mary? How about Peter, or Paul? Maybe Abraham is one of them. We’re not told, and I believe for a very good reason, namely, don’t pray to anyone EXCEPT God!

While it’s true that we can pray for each other (and we have been commanded to do so), there is nothing that indicates this applies to anyone who is “asleep”. One last question - how loud do you have to pray to be heard by someone who is “asleep in the Lord”? I remember that Jesus called in a loud voice for Lazarus to come forth (and He’s God incarnate!).

 

[Ruthie_again]

Part 1 of 2 Cachonga, you said, referring to the Transfiguration,

I don’t see anything in the Scripture to indicate that Jesus was “praying” to these men (of course, I’m using the term “prayer” the way the Scriptures use it). I would note that there was two-way communication between Jesus and both Moses and Elijah.

Of course not. The point is not that anyone was praying to Moses and Elijah. Nobody was. The point is the refutation of your statement that “asleep” means “unable to communicate with the living.” And if Jesus, in His human body, could converse with them, then so can I.

You will never hear me, or any other faithful and knowledgeable Catholic say anything about worshiping the saints.

…I prefer the Scriptural definition of prayer.

And what is that?

I used my Bible study software to search for the word “prayer.” I found nothing like a definition. It is used as (as my English teachers would have said) an action word.

Then I tried “pray,” with the same result. However, in the Old Testament, in the first 60 results, 58 of them were either “I pray you” or “we pray you,” in exactly the same sense of asking for a favor as we Catholics use when “praying” to the saints.

If your definition comes from Matt 6:9, where Our Lord gave us the Lord’s Prayer, then I agree that that kind of prayer is for God alone. So does the Church (bolding mine):

2096 Adoration is the first act of the virtue of religion. To adore God is to acknowledge him as God, as the Creator and Savior, the Lord and Master of everything that exists, as infinite and merciful Love. “You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve,” says Jesus, citing Deuteronomy.13

2097 To adore God is to acknowledge, in respect and absolute submission, the “nothingness of the creature” who would not exist but for God. To adore God is to praise and exalt him and to humble oneself, as Mary did in the Magnificat, confessing with gratitude that he has done great things and holy is his name.14 The worship of the one God sets man free from turning in on himself, from the slavery of sin and the idolatry of the world.

2098 The acts of faith, hope, and charity enjoined by the first commandment are accomplished in prayer. Lifting up the mind toward God is an expression of our adoration of God: prayer of praise and thanksgiving, intercession and petition. Prayer is an indispensable condition for being able to obey God’s commandments. "[We] ought always to pray and not lose heart."15

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46

end part 1

 

[Ruthie_again]

Part 2 of 2

I also find the bolded part of this, though indirect, a good guide for praying to the Saints:

2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to “unveil” the future.48 Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

The footnotes referred to in these selections:
13 Lk 4:8; Cf. Deut 6:13.
14 Cf. Lk 1:46-49.
15 Lk 18:1.
44 Mt 6:24.
45 Cf. Rev 13-14.
46 Cf. Gal 5:20; Eph 5:5.
48 Cf. Deut 18:10; Jer 29:8.

It is obvious that “the communion of saints” means something different to you than it does to us.

II. THE COMMUNION OF THE CHURCH OF HEAVEN AND EARTH

954 The three states of the Church. “When the Lord comes in glory, and all his angels with him, death will be no more and all things will be subject to him. But at the present time some of his disciples are pilgrims on earth. Others have died and are being purified, while still others are in glory, contemplating 'in full light, God himself triune and one, exactly as he is”’:492

All of us, however, in varying degrees and in different ways share in the same charity towards God and our neighbors, and we all sing the one hymn of glory to our God. All, indeed, who are of Christ and who have his Spirit form one Church and in Christ cleave together.493

955 "So it is that the union of the wayfarers with the brethren who sleep in the peace of Christ is in no way interrupted, but on the contrary, according to the constant faith of the Church, this union is reinforced by an exchange of spiritual goods."494

956 The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness. . . . They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus . . . . So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."495
Do not weep, for I shall be more useful to you after my death and I shall help you then more effectively than during my life.496
I want to spend my heaven in doing good on earth.497

957 Communion with the saints. "It is not merely by the title of example that we cherish the memory of those in heaven; we seek, rather, that by this devotion to the exercise of fraternal charity the union of the whole Church in the Spirit may be strengthened. Exactly as Christian communion among our fellow pilgrims brings us closer to Christ, so our communion with the saints joins us to Christ, from whom as from its fountain and head issues all grace, and the life of the People of God itself"498:
We worship Christ as God’s Son; we love the martyrs as the Lord’s disciples and imitators, and rightly so because of their matchless devotion towards their king and master. May we also be their companions and fellow disciples!499

958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and ‘because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins’ she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.

959 In the one family of God. "For if we continue to love one another and to join in praising the Most Holy Trinity - all of us who are sons of God and form one family in Christ - we will be faithful to the deepest vocation of the Church."501

Footnotes:
492 LG 49; cf. Mt 25:31; 1 Cor 15:26-27; Council of Florence (1439): DS 1305.
493 LG 49; cf. Eph 4:16.
494 LG 49.
495 LG 49; cf. 1 Tim 2:5.
496 St. Dominic, dying, to his brothers.
497 St. Thérèse of Lisieux, The Final Conversations, tr. John Clarke (Washington: ICS, 1977), 102.
498 LG 50; cf. Eph 4:1-6.
499 Martyrium Polycarpi, 17:Apostolic Fathers II/3,396.
500 LG 50; cf. 2 Macc 12:45.
501 LG 51; cf. Heb 3:6.

LG is Lumen Gentium, one of the documents of Vatican II. It can be found here.

Note that nowhere does what I cited above say that we should pray to the Saints. That is here:

2683 The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom,41 especially those whom the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer by the example of their lives, the transmission of their writings, and their prayer today. They contemplate God, praise him and constantly care for those whom they have left on earth. When they entered into the joy of their Master, they were "put in charge of many things."42 Their intercession is their most exalted service to God’s plan. We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world.

41 Cf. Heb 12:1.
42 Cf. Mt 25:21.

Note the complete absence of the word “worship.” We pray to them in the exact sense of “I pray you” as it is used so many times in the OT.

P.S.

“Actually, heaven, purgatory, and hell are not ‘places’ in the sense that we think of places. They exist outside the time/space continuum. They are not bound by the physics of ‘place’.”

I’ve often thought that about California, too, but that doesn’t make it so.

I laughed out loud at this. It might be a wee tad uncharitable - I laughed anyway.

 

[Cachonga]

tqualey, thanks for your 2 cents worth. I have looked at the links and find nothing that hasn’t been refuted before (maybe not in this thread, but I have heard, and refuted, these before). Having been born and raised Roman Catholic, I would hope it’s understood that I have many brothers and sisters (the Borg might call me “6 of 11”), and one brother in particular is constantly trying to bring me back to Rome. So far, he hasn’t been able to convince me, but he keeps trying (which I appreciate, and use as an opportunity to learn more).