Intercession of the saints and mary

[Vaughn7107]

Church Militant:

Well Ryan, you are just full of good questions! Way to go!

Have a look at Hebrews 12:1 which says, “Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us,” Now notice that we are here talking about witnesses to our personal race for the Lord, right? I sort of see this as a huge stadium in which all the saints are watching me run my race and cheering me on, which could consist of both encouraging yells and their intercessory prayers. It’s really hard for me to read this verse and see them all just sitting there stone faced and disinterested…That just doesn’t make any sense to me.

Our “prayers” to the saints are indeed requests for them to join us in prayer for whatever we are needing from God. I mean, their souls are right there in His presence, and I (frankly) can (always) use all the help I can get.

BTW, did you happen to notice that John’s gospel (ch 2) doesn’t say that anyone asked the Blessed Virgin to intercede with Jesus for the couple? So I guess the saint’s intercession for we members of the “Church Militant” (They are called the “Church Triumphant”) doesn’t really have to be by request, and I like that too since they are praying for the rest of us all the time too. huh?
Pax tecum,

so my question is why ask if they already are praying for you? In John chapter 15 vs. 7 doesn’t Jesus say “If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given to you”…it doesn’t say ask a Saint or Mary to ask for you and it will be given to you. It simply says just ask (in His name of course). I mean, if it is in His name and it is His will…I don’t think He is going to take the time to count up how many saints are praying for you to make His decision. If they are already praying for you which I believe to be true. Why take the time to ask them to pray?..it just seems like such a waste of time if you can ask God directly.

Vaughn aka Ryan

 

[Vaughn7107]

NotWorthy:

One of the most common misperceptions (IMO) is that Catholics teach that you MUST pray to Mary and the Saints in order to gain Salvation. Catholics do NOT teach this. We encourage the faithful to pray in any way they feel comfortable, as long as it doesn’t violate doctrines, (i.e. worshiping idols and such).

So, do the Saints pray for us without our prayer requests? I’m sure they do. Should we use the saints and Mary to help us focus on the Glory of God? Only if that’s what we feel comfortable doing.

For instance, while saying the rosary, Catholics are taught to focus on the life of Jesus throught the series of mysteries (joyful, sorrowful, glorious, & luminous). I like to repeat the prayer of St. Francis, because it helps me focus on the Christ-like qualities that St. Francis had, thus teaching me how to be more Christ-like. “Where there is doubt, Faith. Where there is despair, Hope…”

NotWorthy

I think you can focus on the Chirst-like qualities of the saints without praying prayers to them. There are other ways aren’t there? Why take that risk of falling into adoring a saint more than God? It seems like it would be pretty easy to slip…

Vaughn aka Ryan

 

[Vaughn7107]

johnpaullover:

Even the most prominent Fundimentalist will say that you are reading into the text.

Furthermore, we don’t HAVE to ask Mary, or any other saint for intercession. We can go directly to God, which is what all Catholics do. For example. The rosary has 53 Hail Marys in it. It has one Hail Holy Queen. Those are 54 Marian prayers. But, there are 6 different prayers directly to God and most are repeated several times. If you count the repeats, it isn’t as many as Marian prayers, but it is 23 prayers.
Gotcha there! Anyway, you asked for ChessusPowerKid. You gave a scanty offer of a piece of cake. That shows that you are losing the financial battle. I don’t know about the rest of THEM, but you are fighting a steep uphill battle

Hey I’m not losing!..you’ll see Anyways, how did you get me there? If anything you almost made me think that you adore Mary more than God by saying that 23 prayers are directly to God while there are 54 prayers to Mary. That’s almost half!!! What is your point exactly?hmmm…

Vaughn aka Ryan

 

[Church_Militant]

Vaughn7107:

so my question is why ask if they already are praying for you? In John chapter 15 vs. 7 doesn’t Jesus say "If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given to you"

…it doesn’t say ask a Saint or Mary to ask for you and it will be given to you. It simply says just ask (in His name of course). I mean, if it is in His name and it is His will…I don’t think He is going to take the time to count up how many saints are praying for you to make His decision. If they are already praying for you which I believe to be true. Why take the time to ask them to pray?..it just seems like such a waste of time if you can ask God directly.

Vaughn aka Ryan

Well gee Ryan, by that thinking one would never ask anyone to pray for you, now would you? I mean… why should I take the time to ask you to pray for me if all I have to do is pray in Jesus’ name and I get all I ask for.

Yet there are real problems with this thinking, like:

1. The Bible says that we should pray for one another (do you want chapter and verse? I can do it, but I figure that you know your Bible well enough or have a concordance handy.)
2. It’s patently untrue that we get everything that we ask even in Jesus’ name, because He went onto say that it has to be in line with God’s will doesn’t it? James 4: 3 says. "You ask but do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions. "

Now, if the intercession of saints is commanded by the Bible then what’s the hitch? Are not angels all around us because they are appointed by God as His minions and guardians of mankind? And this is another point that you seem to have missed somehow. If God does everything, then why does he create and use the angels? I mean…He’s omnipotent right? He needs no help, yet He clearly (in His wisdom) has made the angels to do for him many things. (This is another easy one to support with Bible verses and a good concordance)

So if God needs no help, yet makes helpers, doesn’t that tell you something about the intercession of saints (and angels)?

It’s not spelled out, but these principles are sure as vitam aeternam woven all through the Word of God. (Consider Gabriel, Michael, Raphael, the angel of the Lord, the angel with the flaming sword, and the angel that was gonna slay the prophet Balaam!)

BTW, no Catholic would worship anyone but God. Where does a saint get their graces to become a saint? From God… And they are a saint why? Because the church recognizes their holy life and deep devotion to God. No one worships a weenie underling, you go for the Almighty because you’ve seen what incredible things He has done in the lives of those weenies. You go where the POWER is and that is nowhere but God. And because these souls trusted Him so completely (Ever hear of St. Polycarp? This guy sang hymns as they burned him alive for being a Catholic!) we ask them to pray for us so that we too will place all our trust in God. It never diminishes our love for the Lord, but enhances it all the more as we realize we are never alone in out journey of faith.

Just something for ya to think about.

 

[BibleReader]

CheesusPowerKid:

all of you guys said it really well. Mary is just like any one of our brothers or sisters in Christ on earth that we ask to pray for us…she’s just the most Holy, most exalted, and physically and spiritually closest to God sister in Christ

Well, I would adjust this a little bit.

In my opinion, Mary was actually formally appointed to the role of Chief Human Intercessor in John’s gospel.

Her title in that role is “Woman.”

So, in the Marriage Feast at Cana in John 2, we see Mary interceding for the people of the wedding feast – us – and Jesus responding affirmativelyt to that intercession though it is none of Mary’s business and not in accord with Jesus’ timing. Read John 2. It says so.

It’s not an accident that Jesus calls Mary “Woman” there.

For He calls her “Woman” when, hanging on the cross, He formally puts John – and, in principle, us in the Church – in Mary’s care! That was her formal appointment to the role of “Chief Human Intercessor.”

 

[viktor_aleksndr]

saints intercede for us when we pray. They help us when we pray. Saints are in heaven. they are very near to GOD. They help us in praying. When we pray, they also pray for us.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

so my question is why ask if they already are praying for you?

Why pray at all if God already knows your thoughts? I think the answer is the same. Prayer for and with other who are living in Christ is a testimony in itself, a witness to one’s belief. We believe the saints in heaven and on earth are alive in Christ, praying for the faithful. This is a creed that is affirmed everytime we ask the saints for pray for us. Yes, they will pray for us just the same, but in our asking, we testify to the truth that these saints are alive in Christ, among the “cloud of witnesses” that Scripture witnesses to.

According to the Epistle of Hebrews, we as Christians come to a CITY of God, and that city is poplulated with God AND angels AND saints. We come to them all. Scripture speaks of them as though that are united by the same Divine Love, so we don’t accept the protestant polemic that if we ask Mary to pray for us, we do so in opposition to Christ. The CITY of God includes all the angels and heavenly host that the Psalmist invokes in prayer. We certainly agree with the Psalmist in the biblical practice of invoking all the angels and heavenly hosts in prayer.

 

[rwoehmke]

To pray only to the Father in Jesus’ name is certainly possible, but it is like going to a family reunion where all youir brothers, sisters, cousins etc. are present and speaking only to the oldest person present. It is obvious from an overall reading of Scripture that we have not only a one on one relationship with the Lord, but also are related in more ways than one with all of mankind including those who have gone before us. What would the Pater Familias think if you showed up at a family reunion and talked only with him and ignored everyone else? Maybe basically stuck on yourself? If you worked in a huge law firm where the Senior Partner was your father, would you speak only with him? Tain’t human son, tain’t human and I assume you are a human.

 

[PhilNeri]

itsjustdave1988:

Why pray at all if God already knows your thoughts? I think the answer is the same. Prayer for and with other who are living in Christ is a testimony in itself, a witness to one’s belief. We believe the saints in heaven and on earth are alive in Christ, praying for the faithful. This is a creed that is affirmed everytime we ask the saints for pray for us. Yes, they will pray for us just the same, but in our asking, we testify to the truth that these saints are alive in Christ, among the “cloud of witnesses” that Scripture witnesses to.

According to the Epistle of Hebrews, we as Christians come to a CITY of God, and that city is poplulated with God AND angels AND saints. We come to them all. Scripture speaks of them as though that are united by the same Divine Love, so we don’t accept the protestant polemic that if we ask Mary to pray for us, we do so in opposition to Christ. The CITY of God includes all the angels and heavenly host that the Psalmist invokes in prayer. We certainly agree with the Psalmist in the biblical practice of invoking all the angels and heavenly hosts in prayer.

I agree. Praying to God, even though He knows exactly what we need, shows we recognize our dependence on Him. In the same way, asking those in Heaven to pray for us shows we recognize our dependence on each other. We are supposed to build each other up.

 

[Vaughn7107]

Church Militant:

Well gee Ryan, by that thinking one would never ask anyone to pray for you, now would you? I mean… why should I take the time to ask you to pray for me if all I have to do is pray in Jesus’ name and I get all I ask for.

Yet there are real problems with this thinking, like:

1. The Bible says that we should pray for one another (do you want chapter and verse? I can do it, but I figure that you know your Bible well enough or have a concordance handy.)
2. It’s patently untrue that we get everything that we ask even in Jesus’ name, because He went onto say that it has to be in line with God’s will doesn’t it? James 4: 3 says. "You ask but do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions. "

Now, if the intercession of saints is commanded by the Bible then what’s the hitch? Are not angels all around us because they are appointed by God as His minions and guardians of mankind? And this is another point that you seem to have missed somehow. If God does everything, then why does he create and use the angels? I mean…He’s omnipotent right? He needs no help, yet He clearly (in His wisdom) has made the angels to do for him many things. (This is another easy one to support with Bible verses and a good concordance)

So if God needs no help, yet makes helpers, doesn’t that tell you something about the intercession of saints (and angels)?

It’s not spelled out, but these principles are sure as vitam aeternam woven all through the Word of God. (Consider Gabriel, Michael, Raphael, the angel of the Lord, the angel with the flaming sword, and the angel that was gonna slay the prophet Balaam!)

BTW, no Catholic would worship anyone but God. Where does a saint get their graces to become a saint? From God… And they are a saint why? Because the church recognizes their holy life and deep devotion to God. No one worships a weenie underling, you go for the Almighty because you’ve seen what incredible things He has done in the lives of those weenies. You go where the POWER is and that is nowhere but God. And because these souls trusted Him so completely (Ever hear of St. Polycarp? This guy sang hymns as they burned him alive for being a Catholic!) we ask them to pray for us so that we too will place all our trust in God. It never diminishes our love for the Lord, but enhances it all the more as we realize we are never alone in out journey of faith.

Just something for ya to think about.

In response to #1… I have no problem with praying for each other as brothers and sisters in Christ, infact, I need that a lot. However, I do have a problem with y’all asking the saints to pray for you…if that requires you to pray a prayer to them. That just seems…wrong if that’s how y’all do things. It may not be how you do things and if I am mistaken please set me straight.

In response to #2…if you read the verse I gave you and dug into it…remaining in Christ would be remaining in God’s will…therefore you would not be praying outside of God’s will if you are truly remaining in Him, right?

I guess my real issue with this whole intercession of the saints and Mary is this…like I said before…if y’all are praying to them…that’s different from asking someone to pray for you…you don’t pray here on earth for your fellow sisters and brothers in Christ to pray for you…you ask them. Praying to them just doesn’t seem right. Again…if I am wrong about how things go down when it comes to intercession of the saints and Mary please explain clearly just how you go about this intercession business.

Thanks,
Vaughn aka Ryan

 

[dcdurel]

Vaughn7107:

I guess my real issue with this whole intercession of the saints and Mary is this…like I said before…if y’all are praying to them…that’s different from asking someone to pray for you…you don’t pray here on earth for your fellow sisters and brothers in Christ to pray for you…you ask them. Praying to them just doesn’t seem right. Again…if I am wrong about how things go down when it comes to intercession of the saints and Mary please explain clearly just how you go about this intercession business.
Thanks,
Vaughn aka Ryan

When we pray to the saints, we not only ask their intercession, but we honor them.

Now, the bible is very clear, esp in this verse:

Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus. The New Testament would not recommend it if there were not benefits coming from it. One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus regularly supplied for one person based on another person’s faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15–18, Mark 9:17–29, Luke 8:49–55). And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth.

“The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit” (Jas. 5:16–18)."

Notice that for 3 years, people would have been going directly to God in prayer. Yet He did not answer a single person. It was not until an intercessor prayed for them that He sent rain.

The other reason we pray to saints is to honor them. Why?
Because we must follow God’s example, since everything God did was good.
Do a bible search on how God honors those who serve Him and fear Him.
Now, when we honor those in heaven, as God does, then we are honoring Jesus himself. Why? Look up the bible verses on the body of Christ. They say over and over, whatever we do to the an member of the body, we do to Jesus.
But, when we honor Jesus, by honoring the saints in prayer, we are worshipping Jesus. Because to honor God is to worship Him.
Thus, when we pray to the saints, we are asking their intercession, and their prayers go to God, so essentially we are praying to God and when we honor them in prayer, that honor goes directly to Jesus, thus we are honoring God in prayer.
Thus, when we pray to the saints, we follow the teachings in the bible about asking intercession and about honoring those who fear the Lord, and at the same time we are asking God’s help and honoring Him.
That is why honoring the saints in prayer and asking their intercession is very biblical and at the same time it is asking God’s help and honoring God.

 

[dcdurel]

Vaughn7107:

I guess my real issue with this whole intercession of the saints and Mary is this…like I said before…if y’all are praying to them…that’s different from asking someone to pray for you…you don’t pray here on earth for your fellow sisters and brothers in Christ to pray for you…you ask them. Praying to them just doesn’t seem right. Again…if I am wrong about how things go down when it comes to intercession of the saints and Mary please explain clearly just how you go about this intercession business.

Thanks,
Vaughn aka Ryan

Oh, I forgot. The bible is evidence that the early Christians constantly prayed to the saints in heaven.
For in Hebrews,
“. . . but you are come to mount Zion, and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable hosts of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn [ones] who are enrolled in heaven, and** to God the Judge of all**, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better than that of Abel” (12:22-24).

ST. Paul says how we have come to not only God, but the “spirits of the just men made perfect”

We come to God in prayer and thus we come to the spririts of the just men made perfect in prayer. And the Hebrews were doing both, i.e. praying to God and to the saints in heaven.

 

[CheesusPowerKid]

saints are our brothers and sisters in Christ…they’re merely departed…and amazing followers of Christ who we admire and respect…who else better to ask to pray for you than someone so close to Christ on earth that they’ve been deemed absolutely in Heaven?

 

[Church_Militant]

Vaughn7107:

In response to #1… I have no problem with praying for each other as brothers and sisters in Christ, infact, I need that a lot. However, I do have a problem with y’all asking the saints to pray for you…if that requires you to pray a prayer to them. That just seems…wrong if that’s how y’all do things. It may not be how you do things and if I am mistaken please set me straight.

In response to #2…if you read the verse I gave you and dug into it…remaining in Christ would be remaining in God’s will…therefore you would not be praying outside of God’s will if you are truly remaining in Him, right?

I guess my real issue with this whole intercession of the saints and Mary is this…like I said before…if y’all are praying to them…that’s different from asking someone to pray for you…you don’t pray here on earth for your fellow sisters and brothers in Christ to pray for you…you ask them. Praying to them just doesn’t seem right. Again…if I am wrong about how things go down when it comes to intercession of the saints and Mary please explain clearly just how you go about this intercession business.

Thanks,
Vaughn aka Ryan

I understand what you man Ryan. Hang with us on this and maybe it will clear up.

Have you ever studied Shakespeare or other older English writers? The reason that I ask is because the word “pray” has different meanings than we think of it today (much the same way as the word “gay” has taken on new meanings…)

Here’s a dictionary definition of the word.
"Main Entry: pray
Function: transitive verb
: to ask for —used esp. in pleadings intransitive verb : to make a request of a court esp. in a complaint or petition "

This is exactly the way Catholics treat this idea. Sometimes the prayers are poetic and all that, but the fact is that they all boil down to one thing only. “Hey! You up there in heaven with God! Little help?!” The only help they can do for us is pray along with us and sometimes God uses them to grant us a miracle or even a simple answer to a serious need.

Why does it seem “wrong” to you? Remember that great cloud of witnesses in Hebrews 12? Have a look here at another passage from later in that same chapter. "22: But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23: and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect

I had forgotten about that passage until, dcdurel brought it up, but it just makes sense.

All I can say is that the sense of scripture and prayer is pretty clear to me and we’ve shown you that it is not in competition with God or that it in no way detracts from our love for, worship, or faith in God.

One last point to consider…Do you stop being a Christian when you die? I mean does that stop you from being a part of the Body of Christ? If not, then (to me) that means that when I die and get to heaven I can go out of my way to look out for you in prayers and intercede for your needs before Our Father in Heaven. Question? Do you ever visit a departed relative’s grave? What do ya do there? Do ya talk to them?

 

[itsjustdave1988]

if y’all are praying to them…that’s different from asking someone to pray for you…you don’t pray here on earth for your fellow sisters and brothers in Christ to pray for you…you ask them

Let me place the meaning of pray in the above paragraph to help illustrate some confustion on the matter.

Catholics understand “pray” to mean “humbly request” which is in accord with Webster’s definition, and the usage found in the Protestant KJV translation of the Bible.

if y’all are humbly requesting them…that’s different from asking someone to humbly request for you…you don’t humbly request here on earth for your fellow sisters and brothers in Christ to humbly request for you…you ask them

Hmmmmm…If you read through the above paragraph, you can’t help but scratch your head in wonder at what it is you are objecting to.

Didn’t the Psalmist give us a Scriptural example of invoking (***humbly requesting, aka praying) ***the heavenly angels and saints directly in prayer? (Ps. 103:20–21). In Psalms 148 we pray (humbly request), “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!” EeeeeeK! We’re praying to angels and all his hosts!!! How unScriptural is our Scripture!!

When you get a chance, check out your hymnal and see the prayer to Mary and Joseph that you sing in Angels We Have Heard On High. Protestants, whether knowingly or not, ask (PRAY) for Joseph and Mary’s help when they sing the hymn, *Angels We Have Heard on High. *The relevant verse goes: “See Him in a manger laid / Whom the choirs of angels praise / Mary, Joseph, lend your aid / While our hearts in love we raise.” Double eeeeek!!! Prayers to Mary and Joseph in our hymnals!!!

In the the KJV of the Bible, where people “pray” to other people. Triple eeeeeek!!

“Whose daughter [art] thou? tell me, I pray thee” (Gen 24:23)

According to the Protestant lexicon, *Vine’s Expository of New Testament Words,*the Biblical word translated “pray” is:

**Greek: ***erotao - *“to ask,” is translated by the verb to pray in Luk 14:18,19; 16:27; Jhn 4:31; 14:16; 16:26; 17:9,15,20; in Act 23:18, RV, “asked” (AV “prayed”); in 1Jo 5:16, RV, “should make request” (AV “shall pray”).

To ask and to pray are the same word in the Bible. Catholics still use the word “pray” just as the dictionary describes it, and just as the KJV often translates it. We humbly ask the angels and heavenly hosts to pray for us.

Now, is there an example of a NT Christian conversing with a saint? Yes. The Apostle St. John, being “in the Spirit on the Lord’s day” (Rev 1:10) conversed with those assembled in heaven.
St. John, one Sunday on Patmos, spoke to angels (Rev 1:2), and Jesus (Rev 1:17-18), and to the elders (Rev 5:5) and to the souls of the martyrs (Rev 6:9). Is it unScriptural to converse with angels and saints in heaven? If it is, then St. John has some ‘splainin’ to do.

 

[Vaughn7107]

okay thanks guys…you cleared that up for me Thanks for being patient and helping me understand this better

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Vaughn7107:

In response to #1… I have no problem with praying for each other as brothers and sisters in Christ, infact, I need that a lot. However, I do have a problem with y’all asking the saints to pray for you…if that requires you to pray a prayer to them. That just seems…wrong if that’s how y’all do things. It may not be how you do things and if I am mistaken please set me straight.

In response to #2…if you read the verse I gave you and dug into it…remaining in Christ would be remaining in God’s will…therefore you would not be praying outside of God’s will if you are truly remaining in Him, right?

I guess my real issue with this whole intercession of the saints and Mary is this…like I said before…if y’all are praying to them…that’s different from asking someone to pray for you…you don’t pray here on earth for your fellow sisters and brothers in Christ to pray for you…you ask them. Praying to them just doesn’t seem right. Again…if I am wrong about how things go down when it comes to intercession of the saints and Mary please explain clearly just how you go about this intercession business.

Thanks,
Vaughn aka Ryan

It’s your perception of prayer that is the problem. Prayer does not equal worship. Prayer - literally is a request. For example, In litigation, every complaint that is filed includes a “prayer” for relief, in which the plaintiff asks (or “prays” to the court) for relief in the form of money damages, specific performance, injunctive relief, etcetera. Would you say that this prayer is equivalent to worship of the judge? Of course not. So to when a Catholic says a prayer to a saint. It is not “per se” an act of worship, which seems to be your hang up. It’s okay if - in your lexicon - prayer and worship amount to the same thing. Just don’t turn around and impose that lexicon on Catholics to convict us of false practices. We hold to the traditional meaning of the word “prayer.”