Intercession of the Saints

[JonNC]

To echo Jon, not all Protestants.

The following is from The Presence, a book by Berthold von Schenk, a Lutheran theologian who wrote the book shortly after his wife’s death:

When we, then, view death in the light of the Communion of Saints and Holy Communion, thee is no helpless bereavement. My loved one has just left me and has gone on a long journey. But I am in touch with her. I know that there is a place where we can meet. It is at the Altar. How it thrills me when I hear the words of the Liturgy, “Therefore with angels and archangels and all the company of Heave,” for I know that she is there with that company of Heaven, the Communion of Saints, with the Lord. The nearer I come to my Lord in Holy Communion, the nearer I come to the saints, to my own loved ones. I am a member of the Body of Christ, I am a living cell in that spiritual organism, partaking of the life of the other cells, and sharing in the Body of Christ himself.

There is nothing fanciful or unreal about this. Indeed, it is the most real ting in my life. Of course, I miss my loved one. I should miss her if she took a long holiday trip. But now, since she is what some people call dead, she is closer to me than ever. Of course, I miss her physical presence bitterly. I miss her voice and the sound of approaching footsteps. But I have not lost her. And when my sense of loss becomes too great, I can always go to our meeting place at the Altar where I receive the Body and Blood of my Lord that preserves my body and soul just as it has preserved her unto everlasting life. Do learn to love the Altar as the meeting place with your beloved who have passed within the veil.

I think this is clearly a belief in a two-way connection between the living and the dead.

Thank you, Pastor.
While reading this, I thought of my dad, gone from this life over 20 years now, and yet close as ever in the Communion of Saints.

Jon

EDIT: I wanted to had that All Saints Day is perhaps my favorite of the “minor” Church festivals. The link with the church Triumphant is so strong and evident on that day. And, honestly, singing “For All Thy Saints”, my favorite hymn, so difficult to sinf with that knot in my throat.

O blest communion, fellowship divine!
We feebly struggle, they in glory shine;
All are one in Thee, for all are Thine.
Alleluia, Alleluia!

 

[grandfather]

Jon,

You are right. Not all Protestants deny the intercession of the saints.

It made me think if there could be a statement made: “All Protestants agree that …”

Fill in the blank. Is there a common belief shared by all Protestants.

Maybe it is that the pope is not the visible head of the Church on earth, Peter’s successor. But that is a negative belief. It says this is not true. What truth do all Protestants hold in common?

 

[JonNC]

Jon,

You are right. Not all Protestants deny the intercession of the saints.

It made me think if there could be a statement made: “All Protestants agree that …”

Fill in the blank. Is there a common belief shared by all Protestants.

Maybe it is that the pope is not the visible head of the Church on earth, Peter’s successor. But that is a negative belief. It says this is not true. What truth do all Protestants hold in common?

There’s, of course, the obvious things. I can’t think of any protestants who would deny what the Apostle’s Creed says (except perhaps the communion of saints), even if they don’t like creeds. But even in the one you cite here about the Pope, not all communions will agree. There seems to me to be no reason to deny that the Bishop of Rome has, for centuries, held a position of centrality in the leadership of Christ’s Church on Earth, even if we question universal jurisdiction, or the necessity to be in communion with him. Recent popes in particular, have done an excellent job in just that way.

Jon

 

[snarflemike]

Uhm, aren’t prayers generally compared to incense throughout the Bible. I can’t remember the actual verse but the Old Testament phrase “may my prayer like incense rise before you, the lifting of my hands a sacrifice” comes to mind. So I’m not really seeing the distinction between the prayers of “regular” Christians as mere words and the prayers of the “saints” as incense.

When two types of prayers are described differently IN THE SAME CHAPTER one can safely assume there is something actually different about the two types of prayer.

 

[grandfather]

There’s, of course, the obvious things. I can’t think of any protestants who would deny what the Apostle’s Creed says (except perhaps the communion of saints), even if they don’t like creeds. But even in the one you cite here about the Pope, not all communions will agree. There seems to me to be no reason to deny that the Bishop of Rome has, for centuries, held a position of centrality in the leadership of Christ’s Church on Earth, even if we question universal jurisdiction, or the necessity to be in communion with him. Recent popes in particular, have done an excellent job in just that way.

Jon

There is a fair chance that the majority of Protestants today never even heard the Creed.

There are Protestants who deny the Trinity. I ran into Episcopalians in the 80s or 90s who did not believe Jesus was resurrected, but they said it did not matter to their faith whether or not He was. I met some that deny the existance of angels, but claim all their doctrine is biblical. That was a nondenominational bunch.

If the Apostle’s Creed is a very early summary of the articles of faith and there are Protestants who go through it point by point and reject an article of faith (communion of saints) then they reject the Creed.

 

[JonNC]

=grandfather;9439606]There is a fair chance that the majority of Protestants today never even heard the Creed.

I doubt that. Certainly most have, but as I said virtually all Christians would agree with what’s said in it, with the possible exception of “Communion of Saints”.

There are Protestants who deny the Trinity. I ran into Episcopalians in the 80s or 90s who did not believe Jesus was resurrected, but they said it did not matter to their faith whether or not He was. I met some that deny the existance of angels, but claim all their doctrine is biblical. That was a nondenominational bunch.

By definition, ISTM, a Christian is Trinitarian. Protestants are Christian. Therefore, someone who denies the Trinity, properly speaking, isn’t Christian. Taht’s not to say they don’t believe in Christ. As for denying the ressurection, a few here or there with extreme liberal or modernist views are outliers.

If the Apostle’s Creed is a very early summary of the articles of faith and there are Protestants who go through it point by point and reject an article of faith (communion of saints) then they reject the Creed.

Ok, you and I would agree on that but as I said, the other statements of faith made in the creed;
I believe in God the Father Almighty, maker of Heaven and Earth
What Christian would not nod his head in approval?
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord
ditto
Who was concived by the Hoy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary… etc.
ditto

These are unversally accepted Christian beliefs, statistically insignificant outliers notwithstanding.

Jon

 

[Kakieanne]

I think that most of the mainline Protestant Churches know and believe the Apostles’ Creed. The Evangelical Churches, I don’t know. The Presbyterian Church uses it in their services, but the Christian, Missionary & Alliance Church which is an offshoot of the Presbyterian Church does not. The reason is probably that it doesn’t really fit into their style of worship, so it is never taught. I suspect that is the case in many of the Evangelical Churches.

 

[IanGE]

Where did you learn about Gods forgiveness and love through Jesus?

Jesus IS God. St. Patrick used a shamrock to illustrate the Holy Trinity. My late brother used to say “One God, who has three hats.”

 

[Rabbity]

Jesus IS God. St. Patrick used a shamrock to illustrate the Holy Trinity. My late brother used to say “One God, who has three hats.”

When I first read that I thought it said, “One God, who has three heads,” and started laughing.

I was at an Episcopal church a couple months ago and the local bishop just happened to be visiting that day. During the Q&A someone asked if they could drop the recitation of the creed from the service (this is a fairly common question) and the bishop said no, while there is room for debate about some other things, the creed is an essential statement of faith and core beliefs that needs to stay put.

 

[IanGE]

Your statement doesn’t make much sense in light of the passage below…

“And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead but of the living. You are greatly misled.” – Mark 12:26-27

God bless,

Amen to that: He is NOT God of the dead. So asking the dead to intercede is a waste of time Yes, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are alive because the Word God said so; I’m not sure about the hundreds upon hundreds of dead people that the Church has judged to be saints. A read of the Oxford Book of Saints will reveal the most trivial reasons why certain people were made saints. Jesus says: “You follow me, let the dead bury their dead.” (Matt.8.22); “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me!” (Jn. 14.6); “Come to ME all you who are weary and burdened and I will give you rest.” (Matt. 11.28).
BTW I don’t REJECT praying for intercession: I RECOMMEND going straight to the Lord. I confess that when my faith slips, when I feel the Lord is asleep, I pray to Our Blessed Mother and ask her to dig her Son in the ribs. My wife, a stronger Christian than I, frequently badgers Padre Pio or Saint Teresa of the Roses.
PS I hope that those who quote from Macabees and Tobit know those are apocryphal to all except Catholics. I feel very uneasy when I have to read from one of they at mass. Ecclesiasticus and the book of wisdom seem to crop up a lot.
I notice in the OT that among the various sacrifices Jews had to offer was a “just-in-case” offering! Mea Culpa, just in case!

 

[Rabbity]

I hope that those who quote from Macabees and Tobit know those are apocryphal to all except Catholics. I feel very uneasy when I have to read from one of they at mass. Ecclesiasticus and the book of wisdom seem to crop up a lot.

Just as an aside, while I can’t quote exact chapter and verse offhand, I believe it’s the book of Sirach that has a tidy shut-down of the prosperity gospel stuff that’s popular these days. Sadly that is one of the books that got cut out and stuffed into the “apocrypha” bin.

 

[Patavium]

Every time Catholics recite the apostolic creed they will say “I believe in the communion of saints“. What does communion of saints mean? Catholics understand that the Church is communion of saints. Who are those saints, literally means “the holy ones”? The Catechism of the Catholic Church # 962 declares: We believe in the communion of all the faithful of Christ, those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are being purified, and the blessed in heaven, all together forming one Church; and we believe that in this communion, the merciful love of God and his saints is always [attentive] to our prayers. Most, even Catholics, might think that in Catholicism the title saint is only applied to already deceased persons who have been known to lead exemplary holy life, have a number of miracles attributed to them and their sainthood will be declared solemnly by the Church. They, in fact, are the canonized saints – they serve as role models and intercessors, the latter may scandalize some Protestants. However all members of the Church are saints. The Church, then, is ‘the holy People of God’, and her members are called ‘saints’ (Catechism of the Catholic Church # 823). Saint is not the opposite of sinner – in fact ‘All members of the Church, including her ministers, must acknowledge that they are sinners (ibid, # 827). As long as we are still on earth we are both saints and sinners at the same time.

Catholic’s belief that saints in heaven can intercede for us may scandalize some Protestants and “Bible only” Christians. Some may even accuse Catholics of practising necromancy, a practice condemned in Deuteronomy 18:10-11. Others says asking saints in heaven to intercede for us is robbing Christ’s position as the only mediator between God and us (1 Timothy 2:5). Protestants and “Bible only” Christians have no problem in asking other saints on earth to pray for them and vice versa – Scripture says “pray for one another” (James 5:15). Asking somebody to pray for us requires communication. We can communicate with saints on earth orally (directly or via telephone) or through letter, email, SMS etc. Protestants and “Bible only” Christians avoid communication with the dead – as scriptural proof usually they quote 1 Samuel 28:8-19 where Saul, through a medium, communicated with (what is supposed to be) Samuel. What Saul did was necromancy – he consulted the dead to get information of his future. The Catholic Church forbids such practice – all forms of divination are to be rejected; recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to ‘unveil’ the future (Catechism of the Catholic Church # 2116). From Scripture we know that it is possible to communicate with saints in heaven. John of Revelation was able to talk with one of the twenty-four elders who are in heaven (Revelation 5:5, 7:13-14). If communication with saints is heaven is forbidden then Christ gave bad example when He talked with Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:3). Christ said “he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die” (John 11:25-26). Thus Catholics believe all saints, whether they are alive on earth or alive in heaven, are able to communicate with us. We can ask saints, on earth or in heaven, to pray for us and their prayers will go through Christ, the only mediator, to God. Our communication with the saints joins us to Christ, from whom as from its fountain and head issues all grace, and the life of the People of God itself (Catechism of the Catholic Church # 957). Keep in mind that Catholics do not pray to the saints in heaven - we ask them to pray for us, just like we ask saints on earth to do the same. It is God who ultimately answers their prayers – those saints; whether they are on earth or in heaven, only intercede for us. In necromancy it is the dead whom we expect to provide us with information, usually about our future (life, marriage, business, investment etc.) Finally Catholics also can pray and intercede for saints who are also alive and are being purified in purgatory (ibid # 958).

vivacatholic.wordpress.com/2008/07/22/on-the-communion-of-saints/

 

[grandfather]

I doubt that. Certainly most have, but as I said virtually all Christians would agree with what’s said in it, with the possible exception of “Communion of Saints”.

 

[JonNC]

=grandfather;9441311]

I wonder if the early Christians who assembled the articles of faith in the creed would say that to be a Christian one must accept them all. These are the nonnegotiable tenets of faith.

But that wasn’t what you asked. You asked what all protestants would agree on, not that our discussion about it is germane to the thread.

On the thread, most protestants would not invoke the saints for intercession.

Jon

 

[57Bill]

QUOTE=Patavium;9441283]Every time Catholics recite the apostolic creed they will say “I believe in the communion of saints“. What does communion of saints mean? Catholics understand that the Church is communion of saints. Who are those saints, literally means “the holy ones”? The Catechism of the Catholic Church # 962 declares: We believe in the communion of all the faithful of Christ, those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are being purified, and the blessed in heaven, all together forming one Church; and we believe that in this communion, the merciful love of God and his saints is always [attentive] to our prayers. Most, even Catholics, might think that in Catholicism the title saint is only applied to already deceased persons who have been known to lead exemplary holy life, have a number of miracles attributed to them and their sainthood will be declared solemnly by the Church. They, in fact, are the canonized saints – they serve as role models and intercessors, the latter may scandalize some Protestants. However all members of the Church are saints. The Church, then, is ‘the holy People of God’, and her members are called ‘saints’ (Catechism of the Catholic Church # 823). Saint is not the opposite of sinner – in fact ‘All members of the Church, including her ministers, must acknowledge that they are sinners (ibid, # 827). As long as we are still on earth we are both saints and sinners at the same time.

I liked the above. Especially the last sentence quoted here. I have heard too, “saints have a past, sinners have a future.”

As long as we are still on earth we are both saints and sinners is much better!

I guess the saints in Rev 20: 8-9 DR are different than the saints in Rev 5:8?

It is hard to imagine for many though that canonized saints can hear every intersession, unless they are like God who hears all. Not to say they can’t hear every intersession, it’s just hard or impossible to follow for sola believers. I grew up Catholic and these things were infused, yet I can see how others may find it difficult.

VGood post and some Vgood threads.

 

[snarflemike]

PS I hope that those who quote from Macabees and Tobit know those are apocryphal to all except Catholics. I feel very uneasy when I have to read from one of they at mass. Ecclesiasticus and the book of wisdom seem to crop up a lot.

Catholics AND Orthodox. Or to put it another way, the entire Christian world until 1517.

 

[Augustine3]

Amen to that: He is NOT God of the dead. So asking the dead to intercede is a waste of time Yes, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are alive because the Word God said so;

Your reasoning is there’s no reason to pray to the saints because they are dead. Yet you admit Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are alive. Using your reasoning then it is perfectly acceptable to ask for Abraham, Isaac and Jacob’s intercession because they are alive.

If God is God of the living, then the saints who are with God in Heaven whom we ask for their intercession are alive too not dead – common sense really.

God bless,

 

[grandfather]

QUOTE=Patavium;9441283]

It is hard to imagine for many though that canonized saints can hear every intersession, unless they are like God who hears all. Not to say they can’t hear every intersession, it’s just hard or impossible to follow for sola believers. I grew up Catholic and these things were infused, yet I can see how others may find it difficult.

VGood post and some Vgood threads.

.

The saints are not all knowing. Only God is omniscient.

The saints are invoked, called upon, just as you are when someone makes contact with you and you listen to the person and respond.

In heaven they can see the things that God allows them to see. So one’s mother in heaven might see her child or grandchild in a moment, but no always. It is the same as here.

 

[1voice]

Having read the posts here … and looking at the jumble of confusion presented …I will stick with a solid fact … Jesus is our High Priest … and he ever intercedes for us.

 

[1voice]

QUOTE=Patavium;9441283]Every time Catholics recite the apostolic creed they will say “I believe in the communion of saints“. What does communion of saints mean? Catholics understand that the Church is communion of saints. Who are those saints, literally means “the holy ones”? The Catechism of the Catholic Church # 962 declares: We believe in the communion of all the faithful of Christ, those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are being purified, and the blessed in heaven, all together forming one Church; and we believe that in this communion, the merciful love of God and his saints is always [attentive] to our prayers. Most, even Catholics, might think that in Catholicism the title saint is only applied to already deceased persons who have been known to lead exemplary holy life, have a number of miracles attributed to them and their sainthood will be declared solemnly by the Church. They, in fact, are the canonized saints – they serve as role models and intercessors, the latter may scandalize some Protestants. However all members of the Church are saints. The Church, then, is ‘the holy People of God’, and her members are called ‘saints’ (Catechism of the Catholic Church # 823). Saint is not the opposite of sinner – in fact ‘All members of the Church, including her ministers, must acknowledge that they are sinners (ibid, # 827). As long as we are still on earth we are both saints and sinners at the same time.

I liked the above. Especially the last sentence quoted here. I have heard too, “saints have a past, sinners have a future.”

As long as we are still on earth we are both saints and sinners is much better!

I guess the saints in Rev 20: 8-9 DR are different than the saints in Rev 5:8?

It is hard to imagine for many though that canonized saints can hear every intersession, unless they are like God who hears all. Not to say they can’t hear every intersession, it’s just hard or impossible to follow for sola believers. I grew up Catholic and these things were infused, yet I can see how others may find it difficult.

VGood post and some Vgood threads.

I have always had a question about the clear difference between the Biblical definition of a saint and the Catholic definition.