Intercession of the Saints

[Patavium]

I have always had a question about the clear difference between the Biblical definition of a saint and the Catholic definition.

Aha. What is the biblical definition?

 

[IggyAntiochus]

Jesus IS God. St. Patrick used a shamrock to illustrate the Holy Trinity. My late brother used to say “One God, who has three hats.”

Yet another reason we shouldn’t rely on analogies to the Trinity!

 

[jlhargus]

Jesus IS God. St. Patrick used a shamrock to illustrate the Holy Trinity. My late brother used to say “One God, who has three hats.”

Was your brother a Oneness Pentacoastal who doesn’t believe in the Trinity. Their view is one person playing three differenct rolls like an actor.

 

[IggyAntiochus]

Was your brother a Oneness Pentacoastal who doesn’t believe in the Trinity. Their view is one person playing three differenct rolls like an actor.

Yep. One God with three hats is not Trinitarianism, it’s Modalism.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Yep. One God with three hats is not Trinitarianism, it’s Modalism.

Hey Iggy, glad to see you around again.

Are the Pentecostals Modalists (Sabellianism)? I didn’t know that.

 

[IggyAntiochus]

Hey Iggy, glad to see you around again.

Are the Pentecostals Modalists (Sabellianism)? I didn’t know that.

Hiya Isaiah! Back from a long military jont.

Some Pentecostals are, some are not. The United Pentecostal Church is modalistic, as well as those, generally, that call themselves “Apostolic.” These are the more hardline Pentecostals. The vast majority of charismatic churches (generally under non-denominational titles) are orthodox Trinitarians.

 

[CleverUserName]

Every time Catholics recite the apostolic creed they will say “I believe in the communion of saints“. What does communion of saints mean? Catholics understand that the Church is communion of saints. Who are those saints, literally means “the holy ones”? The Catechism of the Catholic Church # 962 declares: We believe in the communion of all the faithful of Christ, those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are being purified, and the blessed in heaven, all together forming one Church; and we believe that in this communion, the merciful love of God and his saints is always [attentive] to our prayers. Most, even Catholics, might think that in Catholicism the title saint is only applied to already deceased persons who have been known to lead exemplary holy life, have a number of miracles attributed to them and their sainthood will be declared solemnly by the Church. They, in fact, are the canonized saints – they serve as role models and intercessors, the latter may scandalize some Protestants. However all members of the Church are saints. The Church, then, is ‘the holy People of God’, and her members are called ‘saints’ (Catechism of the Catholic Church # 823). Saint is not the opposite of sinner – in fact ‘All members of the Church, including her ministers, must acknowledge that they are sinners (ibid, # 827). As long as we are still on earth we are both saints and sinners at the same time.

Catholic’s belief that saints in heaven can intercede for us may scandalize some Protestants and “Bible only” Christians. Some may even accuse Catholics of practising necromancy, a practice condemned in Deuteronomy 18:10-11. Others says asking saints in heaven to intercede for us is robbing Christ’s position as the only mediator between God and us (1 Timothy 2:5). Protestants and “Bible only” Christians have no problem in asking other saints on earth to pray for them and vice versa – Scripture says “pray for one another” (James 5:15). Asking somebody to pray for us requires communication. We can communicate with saints on earth orally (directly or via telephone) or through letter, email, SMS etc. Protestants and “Bible only” Christians avoid communication with the dead – as scriptural proof usually they quote 1 Samuel 28:8-19 where Saul, through a medium, communicated with (what is supposed to be) Samuel. What Saul did was necromancy – he consulted the dead to get information of his future. The Catholic Church forbids such practice – all forms of divination are to be rejected; recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to ‘unveil’ the future (Catechism of the Catholic Church # 2116). From Scripture we know that it is possible to communicate with saints in heaven. John of Revelation was able to talk with one of the twenty-four elders who are in heaven (Revelation 5:5, 7:13-14). If communication with saints is heaven is forbidden then Christ gave bad example when He talked with Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:3). Christ said “he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die” (John 11:25-26). Thus Catholics believe all saints, whether they are alive on earth or alive in heaven, are able to communicate with us. We can ask saints, on earth or in heaven, to pray for us and their prayers will go through Christ, the only mediator, to God. Our communication with the saints joins us to Christ, from whom as from its fountain and head issues all grace, and the life of the People of God itself (Catechism of the Catholic Church # 957). Keep in mind that Catholics do not pray to the saints in heaven - we ask them to pray for us, just like we ask saints on earth to do the same. It is God who ultimately answers their prayers – those saints; whether they are on earth or in heaven, only intercede for us. In necromancy it is the dead whom we expect to provide us with information, usually about our future (life, marriage, business, investment etc.) Finally Catholics also can pray and intercede for saints who are also alive and are being purified in purgatory (ibid # 958).

vivacatholic.wordpress.com/2008/07/22/on-the-communion-of-saints/

Excellent! Concise, informative and thorough.

 

[IanGE]

Was your brother a Oneness Pentacoastal who doesn’t believe in the Trinity. Their view is one person playing three differenct rolls like an actor.

My brother was a Charismatic Catholic trying to combat charges that we worship three Gods, not one. St. Patrick, too, was a prominent Catholic who did rather well with his explation, I thought. After my Baptism in the Spirit I got a bit confused, praying sometimes to the Father, sometimes to Jesus and usually forgetting the Holy Spirit. Returning from Communion once I suddenly KNEW the three were indeed one, and that praying to One was really praying to all three. Still can’t explain and, as Iggy writes, this is why we should not depend on analogies. I simply use my experience and add “All things is possible with God” (Mk.10:37): at which the scoffer walks saying “that’s a cop-out!” Over to You, Lord Holy Spirit!"
I get the same “cop-out” reply when I try to answer the “Blind Babies” charge against God. I say I KNOW that God is Love and He knows what is doing, we don’t, but must understand that everything He does is for the good of His beloved people. I once asked, “Lord let my words never hurt anyone.” He replied, “Ian, your words WILL hurt people but they will never HARM anyone.” Er…gotcha, Lord…I think

 

[IanGE]

Quote by Patavium:Finally Catholics also can pray and intercede for saints who are also alive and are being purified in purgatory (ibid # 958).Unquote.

Sorry, Lord Jesus, but you needn’t have bothered dying on the cross to forgive our sins. We catholics have categorised “sin” has “Original”, “Venial” and “Mortal”: Your sacrifice on the cross, according to us, only got shot of original sins. The other two can only be forgiven through a priest and mandatory penances. Those who still cling to their MORTAL sin, eg. missing Mass on Sunday, are already pre-judged by the Church and will go to hell. VENIAL sins, if not confessed, will send the sinner to a place they call PURGATORY. However, confession may be by-passed by those who can buy or otherwise acquire “Plenary Indulgences” (I’ve got a couple of those, so you can’t send me to Purgatory). Sorry, Father, your last judgement is also not necessary: its all sorted out by us Catholics. We’ve even decided that those not baptised in the Catholic church will go to a place called LIMBO where they have to dance under poles. Sorry Holy Spirit, you needn’t have bothered to write the Bible, we have our own doctrines, tradition and dogma which supercedes your loving words.
Whenever Jesus " had compassion", in the Greek it means a feeling in the viscera. I too write with compassion from the bowels for those compelled to obey these teachings. Venial sins and Purgatory are especially dangerous: as I wrote, I’ve acquired a few Plenary Indulgences so I can make hay with the “venials”. Except, being Born Again, I immediately get clouted by the Holy Spirit for just THINKING of luxuriating in one.

 

[CleverUserName]

I am so confused
Ian, are you sure you’re Catholic?

 

[IanGE]

I am so confused
Ian, are you sure you’re Catholic?

Sadie, I am truly sorry to have confused you. I am a cradle Catholic, baptised 76 years ago, but dogma and doctrine failed me at a crucial time in my life and I began a 21-year search for God, which ended some 30 years ago when God found me and I was led to being Born Again through giving my life to Jesus ( most probably pushed by our Blessed Lady!!!). Since then my life with, in, and through Jesus has been a walk in a beautiful world where I am not condemned but loved and encouraged.
PS I should have said I am a cradle ROMAN Catholic. Most Protestant religions call them selves Catholic, too, in that God ceased to live behind the veil in the Temple of Jerusalem at the instant of Jesus’ death. The veil was rent in two, God was no longer ONLY there but became a Universal (Catholic) God, available to all PERSONALLY, making “Their” abode with individuals who simply believe in and love Jesus. I am saddened that Rome doesn’t encourage us to a closer relationship with Jesus and uses the Charismatic gifts which are there to enliven the church which BELONGS to laity as much as Clergy. Born Again Christians are seen as threatening by more than one organised religion.
I recall the Church of England Vicar at Welwyn, Hertfordshire, telling us he was preparing his Pentocostal sermon, thinking there hadn’t been many lessons on the Holy Spirit during his 7 years training. Suddenly he began to make stramge noises in his throat. Puzzled, he rang up a friend who had been in seminary with him. The other priest said, "oh, you’ve been given the gift of tongues and explained. Like John Wesley in 1624 Father John wrote an inspired sermon. Before the Sunday service he checked his mail and there was a letter from the Synod, General Assembly of the Church of England, which ordered that no happy clappy isms, no waving of hands, no miracle healings were to be conducted in any Church of England. Father John gave his sermon, then while offering communion (the High Church of England believes in Transubstantiation), he noticed a woman in a wheelchair unable to get up to the altar. So he went down to give her communion and a brief prayer. Immediately the woman leapt out of her chair, exulting, praising God, “I’VE BEEN HEALED, I’VE BEEN HEALED” while Father John was trying to push her back into her wheelchair, “no, no, it’s not allowed, I’ll be sacked!”
PS I Love your quote, Sadie:
As in Paradise,
God walks in Scripture
Seeking man.

(Saint Ambrose of Milan -340-397 AD)

 

[IanGE]

JonNC;9439704:

QUOTE:I don’t know what defines a Christian. Again, it might be acceptance of the early creeds in their entirety, but I doubt it. Jehovahs Witnesses, Unitarians, Mormons reject the Trinity, but why is that the defining or minimal doctrine to be accepted that makes one a Christian, and not some other? Were Arians Christian heretics or nonChristian? UNQUOTE

The Concise Oxford Dictionary has various meanings for “Christian” as adjective and noun. The primary definitions of the noun are 1. A person who has received Christian Baptism; 2. An adherent of Christ’s teaching. I believe Christians would recite any of the various creeds although all not strictly sciptural, but based on interpretations of scripture. The Apostles’ Creed was not written by the apostles, but first mentioned in 390 AD and presumed to have been penned in 140AD by which time even the nonogenarian John was long gone. The first Nicene council of 325AD was convened to answer Arius’ view that Jesus, as CREATED son was a lesser God plus a few other issues. It ended “we believe in the Holy Spirit” but made no reference to His Divinity. The Council of Constantinople in 381AD made additions to the Nicene Creed to affirm the Godhead of the Holy Trinity. So when I say “I am a Christian” I affirm I am a follower of Jesus the Christ. If I insist on calling myself a ROMAN Catholic I am in danger of switching allegience to Rome and not to my beloved Lord and friend, Jesus.
PS All Protestant religions call themselves “Catholic” meaning Universal (as applied to God). They have to acknowledge “apostolic” because all testimonies about Jesus, his teaching, works, life and death come from the Apostles, together with their subsequent experiences guided by the Holy Spirit… In the Greek, the various books are entitled “KATA MATTHAION”, “KATA IOANNEN” etc (According to…)

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Stay on topic please

 

[IanGE]

grandfather;9441311:

JonNC;9439704:

QUOTE:I don’t know what defines a Christian. Again, it might be acceptance of the early creeds in their entirety, but I doubt it. Jehovahs Witnesses, Unitarians, Mormons reject the Trinity, but why is that the defining or minimal doctrine to be accepted that makes one a Christian, and not some other? Were Arians Christian heretics or nonChristian? UNQUOTE

The Concise Oxford Dictionary has various meanings for “Christian” as adjective and noun. The primary definitions of the noun are 1. A person who has received Christian Baptism; 2. An adherent of Christ’s teaching. I believe Christians would recite any of the various creeds although all not strictly sciptural, but based on interpretations of scripture. The Apostles’ Creed was not written by the apostles, but first mentioned in 390 AD and presumed to have been penned in 140AD by which time even the nonogenarian John was long gone. The first Nicene council of 325AD was convened to answer Arius’ view that Jesus, as CREATED son was a lesser God plus a few other issues. It ended “we believe in the Holy Spirit” but made no reference to His Divinity. The Council of Constantinople in 381AD made additions to the Nicene Creed to affirm the Godhead of the Holy Trinity. So when I say “I am a Christian” I affirm I am a follower of Jesus the Christ. If I insist on calling myself a ROMAN Catholic I am in danger of switching allegience to Rome and not to my beloved Lord and friend, Jesus.
PS All Protestant religions call themselves “Catholic” meaning Universal (as applied to God). They have to acknowledge “apostolic” because all testimonies about Jesus, his teaching, works, life and death come from the Apostles, together with their subsequent experiences guided by the Holy Spirit… In the Greek, the various books are entitled “KATA MATTHAION”, “KATA IOANNEN” etc (According to…)

BTW God gave only ten commandments to the Jews but, even by Jesus’ time, commentaries by Rabbis and Scribes expanded those ten into hundreds of nit-picking details that Jews were supposed to follow RELIGIOUSLY (sorry!). Jesus ratified those zillions into two (OK three). “Thou shalt love the Lord your God and the second is like to it: thous shalt love thy neighbour AS THYSELF.” The First commandment would perhaps stand alone: if you truly loved God you would know HE loves everyone as He loves you. And if you truly loved your neighbour (cos God does and who are you to hate whom He loves - including thyself!), then most of the Commandments are redundant: If I truly loved my neighbour I wouldn’t hurt him let alone kill; I wouldn’t hurt by running orft with his wife, or envying his new car or telling him lies… But since Jesus died his simple teachings have been subjected to nitty-gritty sub-clauses binding us where He came to set us FREE! Maranatha; Come Lord Jesus, come.

 

[fred_conty]

Just as an aside, while I can’t quote exact chapter and verse offhand, I believe it’s the book of Sirach that has a tidy shut-down of the prosperity gospel stuff that’s popular these days. Sadly that is one of the books that got cut out and stuffed into the “apocrypha” bin.

Your religion statement is atheist or none, yet you talk as though you are catholic.
Would you fill in the missing blanks for me? Please?