Intercessors other than Christ

[Mannyfit75]

I decided to make this thread to clarify some issues that the Protestants seem to have a confusion.

Jesus did say, there is only One Mediator in Christ. The Catholic affirms deeply.

To truly understand this is to understand the concept of the Communion of Saints. The Communion of Saints is our unity with the Saints in Heaven, Saints in Purgatory and Saints on Earth.

I won’t go into the technical words into this but basically the Communion of Saints combines all our prayers as one to God. Just as I pray for you to pray for me, I can also ask the saints in heaven to pray in behalf for me. Death cannot separate us from the Body of Christ.

I have pray and ask saints to intercede for me and none of the prayers I have said never ignore God himself.

If you been to a Litany of the Saints during Easter Vigil you here these words,

St. Peter and St. Paul, pray for us.

St. Andrew and St. James, pray for us.

Intercession prayer to the saints is not the same as worshiping God. When you put God out of the context when praying to a saint then you are committing idol worship.

The Catholic Church does not teach us to worship saints above God.

I hope this would clarify any confusion which many of you Protestant have about the Catholic Church or the E. Orthodox Church prayer to the saints.

 

[Genesis315]

Jesus is the sole Mediator of justice, justifying us before the Father. But we can all act as mediators of grace, praying to Him the He send others the grace they need.

 

[Fisher]

The Scriptures teach that God is omnipresent – that He exists everywhere all the time (Psalm 139:7-12). That God is omniscient we also know from Scriptures (1 John 3:20). These are some of the attributes of God. I know of no passage in Scripture where I might read that the spirits in Heaven exist everywhere and know everything.

 

[Mannyfit75]

The Scriptures teach that God is omnipresent – that He exists everywhere all the time (Psalm 139:7-12). That God is omniscient we also know from Scriptures (1 John 3:20). These are some of the attributes of God. I know of no passage in Scripture where I might read that the spirits in Heaven exist everywhere and know everything.

He is. Saints in heaven, and angels live outside time and space. They experience the beautific vision. What they see is not limited to what we see on earth.

They don’t necessary means they are omniscient. In fact the Prophet Samuel know some knowledge of a future even when a Jewish king seek his counsel even though Samuel was already dead.

I hardly think saints have the same limits we do on earth. Hebrew also states that we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses. These witnesses are not angels.

In fact the word Martyr came from the Greek word for witnesses. The other thing is that we have Jesus speaking to Moses who is clearly dead and Elijah who was assumed into heaven. They appeared glorified form. The passage in the Bible noted that Jesus converse with them.

 

[Singinbeauty]

So I suppose that some catholics probably pray to Abraham and Moses?

I have to be honest. I don’t understand this concept of asking those who have gone on to Heaven before me to speak to God for me when I can go to Him directly.

Sure, I ask for those who are with me here on earth to pray for me but this is more for me than me thinking it is going to help the situation. Does God automatically say ‘Well I was going to say no to this but now that you have 50 people praying for you I think I will change my mind.’? Something tells me, no. I find no evidence in scripture that ANYONE prayed to anyone but God.

 

[ricmat]

So I suppose that some catholics probably pray to Abraham and Moses?

I have to be honest. I don’t understand this concept of asking those who have gone on to Heaven before me to speak to God for me when I can go to Him directly.

Sure, I ask for those who are with me here on earth to pray for me but this is more for me than me thinking it is going to help the situation. Does God automatically say ‘Well I was going to say no to this but now that you have 50 people praying for you I think I will change my mind.’? Something tells me, no. I find no evidence in scripture that ANYONE prayed to anyone but God.

Indeed, if the church consists only of a few billion “me and Jesus”, then no one else is necessary. Why even join a church? But the situation is more like the situation stated by a US founding father (forgot which one) - “We shall all hang together or we shall all hang alone.”

Christianity is not about me. It’s about us. Example: The purpose of marriage is not about me, it’s about us…how husband and wife lead each other to God, and in the process co-create with God new human beings (we provide the bodies, God provides the soul) so that there can be even more citizens of heaven. The cloud of witnesses.

Me and Jesus is inherently selfish. Us and Jesus is not.

In the body of Christ, all the elements work together, to help each other. Me and Jesus just doesn’t apply here.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Indeed, if the church consists only of a few billion “me and Jesus”, then no one else is necessary.

No ONE other than JESUS is NECESSARY!

Why even join a church?

We are called to gather worship teach and train each other!

But the situation is more like the situation stated by a US founding father (forgot which one) - “We shall all hang together or we shall all hang alone.”

No way! Get yourself right with our Lord and Savior then when your right, be a disciple! YOUR comment is a VERY scary one, the adversary whom can even disguise as an angel light can fool thousands who believe this type of thinking with one beautiful vision.

Christianity is not about me. It’s about us. Example: The purpose of marriage is not about me, it’s about us

It’s about GOD, it’s God’s picture of Jesus and His elect, built into our lives (our marraige is the symbol of Christ and Bride) NO us it’s all to be for HIS GLORY not US!

…how husband and wife lead each other to God, and in the process co-create with God new human beings (we provide the bodies, God provides the soul) so that there can be even more citizens of heaven. The cloud of witnesses.

Whose theology is this?? ,

 

[ricmat]

**

Whose theology is this?? ,**

Google “theology of the body”

 

[murphdog261]

Hey all!

Thanks Mannyfit for creating this thread. I was going to start one about intercessory prayer myself…

I just finished a conversation with my dad (an evangelical, baptized Catholic, and now contemplating returning) about his difficulties with the Catholic Church, one of them being prayer and intercession to the saints in Heaven.

He understands the power of intercession, and has seen first instance the effects that prayer can have in his daily life.

His problems, however, seem to arise when we stop asking the saints on this earth to prayer and intercede for us, and we begin to ask the saints in Heaven to pray for us.

My father feels that if you are communicating with a saint in Heaven, then you are excluding Jesus in some way. As if it is just “you and the saint”, instead of “you and Jesus”. I don’t think he completely understands that the saint, having seen the Beatific Vision, is made perfect in God and is completely filled with God’s love through the Holy Spirit. (I didn’t speak to him about that yet)

At the same time, though, he is fine with the idea of the saints in Heaven praying for us, if that is the will of the Father. It is just that he finds it a bit scary to pray to anyone but God, if we can’t completely know Heaven and all its inhabitants at this time.

My dad asked me, "Why should I risk talking to someone who I don’t know is in Heaven, when I can just talk directly to Jesus?"

Although he is moving closer to understanding the truth behind the communion of saints, he still has more to learn, and is open to the idea.

I just thought it might help to share an experience of someone who can relate to both sides of this discussion.

In Christ,

Murph

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Whose theology is this?? ,

Google “theology of the body”

I am astounded if the way you explained is they way it was preached by him! MFM scratches his head in astounding amazement.

 

[Mannyfit75]

So I suppose that some catholics probably pray to Abraham and Moses?

I have to be honest. I don’t understand this concept of asking those who have gone on to Heaven before me to speak to God for me when I can go to Him directly.

Praying to the Saints is no different than you asking me to pray for me. That is the premise. Praying to the saints itself does not negate God because we ask the saints to pray for us. We don’t ask saints to forgive our sins, grant us grace, or any sort that is reserve only to God.

Sure, I ask for those who are with me here on earth to pray for me but this is more for me than me thinking it is going to help the situation. Does God automatically say ‘Well I was going to say no to this but now that you have 50 people praying for you I think I will change my mind.’? Something tells me, no. I find no evidence in scripture that ANYONE prayed to anyone but God.

Then I don’t need to ask Christians to pray for me then. Because by your logic, I don’t need you to pray for me.

Do you assumed that you die, you will be separated from the Body of Christ? His Church? I doubt it. We are still a member. Our souls will go to heaven. Second, our souls also have a free will.

Do you presume that will stop loving your beloved once you go to heaven and he is still on earth? Of course you would still love those whom you love on earth. You would be concern for the well being of their soul.

 

[Apryl]

The Catholic Church does not teach us to worship saints above God.

The Catholic Church does not teach us to worship saints. PERIOD

We see them as examples, and we believe them to be in heaven and with God. But they are saints. NOT God. Not near-ly God. Not something-like God. Saints. They had been people (or angels)

 

[Mannyfit75]

The Catholic Church does not teach us to worship saints. PERIOD

We see them as examples, and we believe them to be in heaven and with God. But they are saints. NOT God. Not near-ly God. Not something-like God. Saints. They had been people (or angels)

exactly she doesn’t. Besides most of the prayers to saints are always asking saints to pray for us and its always in union with God.

 

[Contarini]

We are called to gather worship teach and train each other!

And that restricted notion of what “church” means is why Protestants of your stripe have no reason to be offended when Catholics say that Protestant churches are just “ecclesial communities.”

Edwin

 

[myfavoritmartin]

And that restricted notion of what “church” means is why Protestants of your stripe have no reason to be offended when Catholics say that Protestant churches are just “ecclesial communities.”

Edwin

If I am translating “ecclesial communities” right I don’t think I would be offended by such a comment!

 

[Contarini]

If I am translating “ecclesial communities” right I don’t think I would be offended by such a comment!

Right. And to be fair, I think Baptists generally are not. Mohler had a good essay on the subject.

Edwin

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

I decided to make this thread to clarify some issues that the Protestants seem to have a confusion.

Jesus did say, there is only One Mediator in Christ. The Catholic affirms deeply.

To truly understand this is to understand the concept of the Communion of Saints. The Communion of Saints is our unity with the Saints in Heaven, Saints in Purgatory and Saints on Earth.

I won’t go into the technical words into this but basically the Communion of Saints combines all our prayers as one to God. Just as I pray for you to pray for me, I can also ask the saints in heaven to pray in behalf for me. Death cannot separate us from the Body of Christ.

I have pray and ask saints to intercede for me and none of the prayers I have said never ignore God himself.

If you been to a Litany of the Saints during Easter Vigil you here these words,

St. Peter and St. Paul, pray for us.

St. Andrew and St. James, pray for us.

Intercession prayer to the saints is not the same as worshiping God. When you put God out of the context when praying to a saint then you are committing idol worship.

The Catholic Church does not teach us to worship saints above God.

I hope this would clarify any confusion which many of you Protestant have about the Catholic Church or the E. Orthodox Church prayer to the saints.

I never used to believe in this as a Baptist. But, now I certainly believe in the intercession of angels. I would like to know more about intercession of the saints in heaven and purgatory. Can you provide me with more background on this? I would like to have them help me in my life but I don’t know the background or teaching of the Catholic Church on this.

Some have posted here erroneously about praying only to Jesus. The question I would have is why does God have angels that minister to us as the Bible says yet we don’t ask for a connection with them? Seems silly for them to be there and help us but not speak to them or ask them for help

Thank you for posting this thread. God has brought it to our attention to discuss it.

Peace…

Mystic Warrior

 

[Yerusalyim]

I have to be honest. I don’t understand this concept of asking those who have gone on to Heaven before me to speak to God for me when I can go to Him directly.

So, the question I pose back at you is…what’s the difference between asking a saint of the Church Militant (those still on earth) or a saint in heaven to pray for you? If I can ask my brother who lives in Illinois to pray for me, why can’t I ask my grandmother whom I believe to be in heaven to pray for me? In fact, the prayers of heavenly saints are much desired because the pray PERFECTLY within the will of God.

The question I would have is why does God have angels that minister to us as the Bible says yet we don’t ask for a connection with them? Seems silly for them to be there and help us but not speak to them or ask them for help

This is also a good point. We have guardian angels…I speak to mine…order it about a bit…

 

[BOBKAT]

The prayer of the righteous is heard. Remember that is from the bible. Saints are righteous, live within the body of Christ and therefore can and want to interceede for us. I personnally like reading about them because I gather inspiration from them. Jesus is honored my our honoring them. You see when I think of a saint Jesus always comes to the forefront because it is by Him that they were made saints. Any good catholic will tell you that. This may sound crazy but I don’t get inspired by Jesus in the sense that He is just like me rather what I get from Him is Love and Hope, the saints on the other hand are more apt to be like you and me and that is where the inspiration lies. I really hope someone understands this.

God Bless
Kathleen

PS how many of us feel worthy enough to go directly to Jesus, that being said I know that we can, but honestly I sometimes gather strength in going to His mother first not because of anything Jesus will do, but mostly because of my iniquities.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

So I suppose that some catholics probably pray to Abraham and Moses?

I have to be honest. I don’t understand this concept of asking those who have gone on to Heaven before me to speak to God for me when I can go to Him directly.

Sure, I ask for those who are with me here on earth to pray for me but this is more for me than me thinking it is going to help the situation. Does God automatically say ‘Well I was going to say no to this but now that you have 50 people praying for you I think I will change my mind.’? Something tells me, no. I find no evidence in scripture that ANYONE prayed to anyone but God.

Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus on the mountain, known as the Transfiguration. Where did he come from? From the grave? He came from Heaven to speak with Jesus. He came down to the mountain on the earth. Angels do the same.

If you don’t believe God can make a difference in your life, then why pray at all? To me that shows a lack of faith. Isn’t He the God of miracles and healing? Isn’t He all powerful? God does change his mind. Jonah asked God to spare Nineveh and God did.

God isn’t a genie that we ask materialistic things, but he isn’t the inflexible tyrant either. We have to work out our own salvation and choose between good and evil. The saints and angels and Mother Mary help us in our fight.

Everything works according to God’s plans, but that doesn’t mean he is the puppet master. He gives us freewill. If I didn’t believe God could perform miracles and healing through prayer I wouldn’t be a believer in Him. He is the God of the living, not the dead.

Have faith in God.

Peace…

Mystic Warrior