Intercessors other than Christ

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meandean said:
john 5:31-47- if i testify about myself, my testimony is not valid. there is another who testifies in my favor, and i know that his testimony is about me valid. you have sent to john and he has testified to the truth. not that i accept human testimony, but i mention it that you may be saved. john was a lamp that burned and gave light, and you chose for a time to enjoy his light. i have a testimony weightier then that of john. for the very work that the Father has given me to finish, and which i am doing, testifies that the Father has sent me.and the Father who sent me has Himself testified concerning me. you have never heard his voice nor seen His form,nor does His word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one He sent. you diligently study the scriptures because you think that by them you posses eternal life. these are the scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. i do not except praise from men, but i know you, i know that you do not have the love of god in your hearts. i have come in my Fathers nameand you do not accept me, but if someone else comes in his own name. you will accept him.how can you believe if you accept praise from another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God?but do not think i will accuse you before the Father. your accuser is moses, on whom your hopes are set. if you believed moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. but since you do not believe what he wrote,how are you going to believe what I say?
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Um, you wanna clarify your point.
 
boppaid said:
Well, no. I’m not understanding the connect here. Do you see that the same as praising Mary? When you ask your kid for something, are you praying to them? (Are you the person that said that asking for something is prayer? I’m sorry, I can’t remember.)

As a Catholic, I just struggle with this SO MUCH.
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Absolutely you are praying to your kid when you ask something of them. In fact you may possibly use the actual word to them yourself. ‘Pretty please’ when you’re asking for something actually isn’t the word ‘pretty’ (beautiful). It comes from ‘prithee please’ which comes from ‘I pray thee, please’. (Thanks for that one Zooey!)

And read Hamlet, the often used example - Gertrude his mother says to Hamlet ‘Pray thee, Hamlet, do not go to Wittenberg’.

She’s not worshipping her son, nor addressing him exactly as she would a saint. Just like praying to God is different to praying to a saint as well. Nonethelss all of 'em are prayer. Gertrude is ASKING him a favour. As we ask the saints and God for favours without confusing between them.

And she is, as she herself says, PRAYING in the asking.
 
meandean said:
i’m finding it hard to understand. i was just in the marian devotions and one said about the glories of mary chap 6, at the command of mary all obey, even god. she is omnipotent. what in the world is this?
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Did the devotion say that she is omnipotent? I understand “at the command of Mary, all obey” because her will is perfectly united with the will of God (as are the wills of all the Saints). Therefore, she could not “command” anything contrary to the Heart of Jesus or the will of God. But omnipotence, in the absolute sense, is an attribute of God. If the devotion said that Mary is omnipotent, I would quibble with the language because it could confuse people. Nevertheless, she is certainly ‘omnipotent’ in the subsidiary way that can be understood as having her will subordinated fully to the will of God. The power of her prayer would be ‘omnipotent’ in that sense.
 
boppaid said:
It looks like praying to me. It was called prayers by the nuns at school. It feels like praying. Is it praying?
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Yes. It is praying.

But then, praying for a Catholic is not limited to an act of worship.

Combine Catholic theology, and English language, it becomes confusing

I pray to my parents (both alive, mind you) when I want something. I pray to children that I work with. Both of these are instances of asking prayers.

I can pray to you (and others) to pray for me. In fact, we have a prayer that is said during mass, ‘I ask you, Blessed Mary, ever Virgin, all the Angels and Saints, and you, my brothers and sisters’.

These are prayers, and prayers addressed to those names, but not prayers of worship.

Which caused all of my " marks earlier.

Think of the Litany of Saints. I didn’t notice until a few years ago, when they name a Saint (or the Blessed Virgin), the response is ‘Pray FOR us’. When you list God (in any of the three persons), the response is usually ‘Hear our prayers’

I think, for me, as a Cradle Catholic, raised around Protestants, and just now learning so many nuances of the faith that I profess (even before I fully understood it - and I’m still learning), the term ‘pray to’ is a problem. I don’t consider my prayers as being TO any one other than God. But yes, I am praying TO Mary, the Saints, and yes, you my brothers and sisters… but I’m just passing you a note to give to God for me. The message isn’t for you. If you read it while you’re on the way, fine. In fact, maybe you should read it so that you can say ‘You really should honor this. I’ll vouch for the good it can do’

(Yes, I have these picturesque moments all the time)
 
I am not as articulate as most on this forum, and am still at the beginning stages of learning my faith so please bare with me as I try to explain why the Intercessions of the Saints just plain makes sense, least to me.

From the beginning of time till the present, God could easily communicate with us directly, He can make it so that every human on earth can hear Him in their own language at the same time, but all through salvation history, God chose to communicate with us Through others; Moses and Abraham and all the prophets. Can we not, in our finite limited way do the same in reverse?

I sometimes look at God as a Great Coach. All coaches teach TEAMWORK for success. On my son’s football team, there are many different positions and ALL are important and they must all play as a unified team in order to win (2-1 so far:thumbsup: ). All of God’s creation is One Team, whether here on earth in living breathing bodies or in heaven (God is the God of the living NOT of the dead), and as a great coach I believe it pleases Him when we join our prayers as One Team.
 
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