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Faith1960
Guest
Do you put any stock in the study?
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Faith1960
Guest
I’ve always heard the same thing – that God’s answers aren’t always “yes,” but can be “no” or “later,” BUT given the large number of patients in this study, I still can’t help but think that there’d be some indication of His intervention, among those who were prayed for. Am I wrong? And, if so, why?
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Faith1960
Guest
I changed the title of this thread since my main problem is with the studies of intercessory prayer. I’d like sone feedback from some of the long time posters here, if you see this thread and would like to share your thoughts, I’d appreciate it.
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DCNBILL
Guest
I would think that the study is flawed due to the fact one could never be sure that someone might be praying for those in the control group. 
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Faith1960
Guest
I’ve been searching and searching online for articles showing that the STEP study on intercessory prayer was flawed and I’m not finding much.Can anyone find some articles from credible sources that prove the study was flawed in some way?
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Faith1960
Guest
Um…uh…help, anyone?
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Pat_Albertson
Guest
Not only that, but God could simply be generous and grant healing to the control group at the same time that he grants it to the prayed for group. That would force one to conclude just what they concluded, namely, that you can’t tell the difference between the control group and an experimental group . . . which puts the whole thing in a different light . . .I would think that the study is flawed due to the fact one could never be sure that someone might be praying for those in the control group.
If making an act of faith is a requirement for interacting with the divine, then I don’t see a group of experimenters outfoxing God. Sorry, but I don’t think He’s going to allow the substitution of scientific proof for faith if that’s how He wants it to be.
I’ve wanted to devise a way of forcing God to reveal Himself ever since I was a little kid. I finally came to the conclusion that it ain’t gonna happen.
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bakaten
Guest
Reading the source, it only indicates that the prayer group pray for the patients. But how about the patients themselves? It also never stated that the control group is atheist. There is always possibility that they pray as well. The blind experiment, turns out not to be as blind as they thought to be. By limiting their knowledge on the patients, the researcher also limited their knowledge on the important details related to the outcome of the study. To put it in scientific term, let’s look at quantum mechanic principles. It said, you can not measure two different (but related eg: time and position) things at the same time. The action of the observer always influence the outcome of the measurement. So it is what actually happens with the study.
Faith1960, there is in fact three articles that describes the flaw of the step study:
1)Take what God said to Moses: I have mercy on whom I will, and I show pity to whom I please. In other words, the only thing that counts is not what human beings want or try to do, but the mercy of God (Ro 9:14-16)
- and he did not work any miracles there because their lack of faith (Mt13:58)
Remember, God is independent being. It’s really up to him to decide whether He want to grant a prayer; however He told us not to worry about that, the two of the most basic things God demand out of us in prayer: FAITH and RESIGNATION.
Peace be with you
J
JRKH
Guest
Others have expressed some very good points bout the difficulties in making a study of the effect of intercessory prayer. Frankly - while the scientific method CAN take into account many factors, there may be factors at work that science either does not know about, and therefore cannot allow for, or else science does not properly or fully understand all the factors.
This is not an indictment of the Scientific method, merely pointing out something that scientists themselves would agree can cause false readings or conclusions.
In the matter of intercessory prayer of any kind, I think that we need to look carefully at what Scripture tells us. Scripture says to “Ask and you will receive”, “if you have faith the size of a mustard seed you can move mountains”, “God will grant anything asked for in Jesus name, if we trust and do not doubt”, that those who follow Jesus “shall do the works” that he does and “even greater works”.
Nowhere does Jesus say that the answer will be “no”, or “not yet”. Rather he says ask and it will be given.
BUT -
All of these things - all of these promises are built upon faith, a true, full trusting, confident and courageous faith. That faith must be founded very deeply and profoundly on Christ. It must fulfill to the greatest measure possible the two great commandments of Love (Mt 22:36-40) and we must seek to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. (Mt 5:48) It must show a willingness, not only to accept God’s will, but to seek to put God’s Will into practice in our lives…even at the expense of our own comfort and reputation among men.
These things are not easy. Indeed they are very hard - extremely hard. Yet this IS what is called for.
In fact, it is so hard that most (myself included at first) refuse to question our own faith and instead look “outside” ourselves for explanation. This is where we get a lot of the other explanations like “sometimes the answer is no” and so forth. Note here that I am not questioning anyone else’s faith…I am just saying that the natural tendency is to assume our faith is fine - so there must be another explanation…
Now - for those who DO pursue the type of faith and perfection called for in the Gospels, what is learned in that journey is the need to let go of our needs and desires. In so doing, we do not ask for much. If and when we DO ask for things, we ask first for grace, for God’s will, and only then do we ask for something specific. In other words, the closer we move toward God, the more “correct” are our requests to the Will of God.
Now - to tie all of this to the OP question and the study…Science has not and indeed cannot effectively measure the interior life of those praying. As such those making the study cannot know if those praying are properly disposed, properly aligned to God’s will, etc to be truly effective.
There is another thread on healing currently active where some of this is also explored - Here is the link…
Peace
James
This is not an indictment of the Scientific method, merely pointing out something that scientists themselves would agree can cause false readings or conclusions.
In the matter of intercessory prayer of any kind, I think that we need to look carefully at what Scripture tells us. Scripture says to “Ask and you will receive”, “if you have faith the size of a mustard seed you can move mountains”, “God will grant anything asked for in Jesus name, if we trust and do not doubt”, that those who follow Jesus “shall do the works” that he does and “even greater works”.
Nowhere does Jesus say that the answer will be “no”, or “not yet”. Rather he says ask and it will be given.
BUT -
All of these things - all of these promises are built upon faith, a true, full trusting, confident and courageous faith. That faith must be founded very deeply and profoundly on Christ. It must fulfill to the greatest measure possible the two great commandments of Love (Mt 22:36-40) and we must seek to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. (Mt 5:48) It must show a willingness, not only to accept God’s will, but to seek to put God’s Will into practice in our lives…even at the expense of our own comfort and reputation among men.
These things are not easy. Indeed they are very hard - extremely hard. Yet this IS what is called for.
In fact, it is so hard that most (myself included at first) refuse to question our own faith and instead look “outside” ourselves for explanation. This is where we get a lot of the other explanations like “sometimes the answer is no” and so forth. Note here that I am not questioning anyone else’s faith…I am just saying that the natural tendency is to assume our faith is fine - so there must be another explanation…
Now - for those who DO pursue the type of faith and perfection called for in the Gospels, what is learned in that journey is the need to let go of our needs and desires. In so doing, we do not ask for much. If and when we DO ask for things, we ask first for grace, for God’s will, and only then do we ask for something specific. In other words, the closer we move toward God, the more “correct” are our requests to the Will of God.
Now - to tie all of this to the OP question and the study…Science has not and indeed cannot effectively measure the interior life of those praying. As such those making the study cannot know if those praying are properly disposed, properly aligned to God’s will, etc to be truly effective.
There is another thread on healing currently active where some of this is also explored - Here is the link…
Peace
James
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Faith1960
Guest
What about what the author of this article has to say? It was written in 2010. I can’t find any studies or anything to prove the 2006 study was flawed.
psychologytoday.com/blog/homo-consumericus/201003/does-god-answer-prayers
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Faith1960
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This is a site I frequently read. It’s always been very helpful in answering my questions. I thought it would help with this subject, but instead of helping, it talks about studies prior to 2006, which have been criticized by many to have been flawed, then discusses the 2006study, giving only a speculative guess as to why the results turned out the way they did.
www.godandscience.org/apologetics/prayer.html
www.godandscience.org/apologetics/prayer.html
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JRKH
Guest
I don’t see that the author of your linked article addresses any of the points I was making. Further, I don’t think we need to prove the 2006 study “flawed”. It simply tried to study something that cannot truly be studied by science.
Science requires things that can be isolated, quantified and are repeatable (more or less). That is fine for science. It allows us to have, for instance, a very fine surgeon who happens to be a jerk. His personality, his spiritual life, etc have zero effect on his skills…The skill required to perform delicate surgeries is completely isolated from the rest of who he is.
Faith and spirituality, the Christian Life, do not work that way. It calls for a total integration of ones self with God’s will. It is much more mystical than it is quantitative. As such science cannot isolate components and cannot quantify various factors with any level of scientific certainty. Thus, any attempt to do a statistical study is bound to produce the kinds of results seen…no significant statistical difference.
I hope that this is not something that is tempting you to doubt…
Peace
James
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Faith1960
Guest
Well, yeah, it is making me doubt.
And I’ll risk looking really dumb here by saying that what you wrote above, <It calls for a total integration of ones self with God’s will. It is much more mystical than it is quantitative. As such science cannot isolate components and cannot quantify various factors with any level of scientific certainty. > is confusing to me. I don’t think I understand what you’re saying.
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JRKH
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Well - you kind of have me there since understanding this can take a really long time…Well, yeah, it is making me doubt.
And I’ll risk looking really dumb here by saying that what you wrote above, <It calls for a total integration of ones self with God’s will. It is much more mystical than it is quantitative. As such science cannot isolate components and cannot quantify various factors with any level of scientific certainty. > is confusing to me. I don’t think I understand what you’re saying.
Let me begin by pointing out that we are not only called to belief in God and in Christ, but that Jesus calls us to perfection (Mt 5:48).
So just what IS that perfection Jesus speaks of??
This is expressed later where Jesus calls for us to be one as He and the Father are one (John 17:21)
So what does this sort of Unity involve?
It is a submission of our will to God’s Will - A uniting of our will with His in Love for Love is the two great and basic commandments (Mt 22:36-40 and God IS Love (1 John 4:7-8)
Consider the ramifications of this unitive Love. If we conform our will to God’s, then we help but want what God wants. Thus our primary prayer is for His will to be done “…on earth as it is in heaven…” As far as other things go, we only desire that which will glorify God. Not riches, not personal fame, not even the health of another, if that is not God’s plan for that person.
Now consider - How many people, even religious people, are truly committed to this kind of faith? How many truly seek this unitive Love - to be united with Christ in this life? And even among those who DO seek this, how many stages of this journey are there between the “Worldly” and the “Sublime”.
I don’t know if I’ve explained very well, but I hope I’ve given you something to begin thinking about.
If you would like a really good book on the subject, check my signature. It’s a book by Ralph Martin and is truly excellent, combining the teachings of some great doctors of the Church into a clear and easy to read and follow explanation.
Peace
James
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Faith1960
Guest
From what the studies show, and even from what I think you’re saying, it appears to me that the patients outcomes would be the same, regardless of whether any of them were prayed for or not, which seems like chance rather than any kind of divine intervention.
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JRKH
Guest
Don’t have time to really get into this right now…I’ll try to look at it again tonight and respond…From what the studies show, and even from what I think you’re saying, it appears to me that the patients outcomes would be the same, regardless of whether any of them were prayed for or not, which seems like chance rather than any kind of divine intervention.
Merry Christmas
Peace
James
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Kathryn_Ann
Guest
Good question. I must say that I have heard reports on various news broadcasts, of tests where people who are prayed for actually recover faster, and the patients didn’t even know they were being prayed for.
I wonder though if there must be some truth in the fact that sometimes God does answer prayer, but sometimes He answers “Yes,” and sometimes “No,” as in King David’s prayer to save his son. His servants asked him why, when his prayers “weren’t answered” (they were, but not in the affirmative) why did he then rise up, wash his face and eat? David said that he had prayed and been answered. There was nothing more he could do.
This seems so hard at times, when we may pray but do not get the answer we want.
I think of St. Elizabeth Ann (Mother) Seton, who lost two children while working as foundress of Catholic schools in very primitive conditions. She prayed so hard for her children’s healing. They were healed for a time, but in the end, when they were taken from her, she had to face the same question.
I think, as C.S. Lewis says, that we pray “not to change God, but to change ourselves.” God would always have us pray for all that is good.
Had Mother Seton’s husband not died in Italy, she may never have converted to Catholicism, becoming the saint she was. God does not require the death, or the illness, but perhaps circumstances good or bad, will “all work together for the good.”
It is a mystery to us, to we who are human, to grieve over these questions. I do know that scripture tell us that *neither life or death, peril or any situation will keep us from the love of God. *That is all we can know, for now.
“For we see through a glass, darkly, but then, face to Face.” Heaven may be full of answers that we can’t comprehend now. While we are here on earth, I think we should continue to pray for all that is good, for our family and friends, for situations where we don’t know what to do. We should pray, no matter what the answer from God our Father may be.
I hope this helps, and think many people ask these questions from time to time.
All blessings and peace,
Kathryn Ann
I wonder though if there must be some truth in the fact that sometimes God does answer prayer, but sometimes He answers “Yes,” and sometimes “No,” as in King David’s prayer to save his son. His servants asked him why, when his prayers “weren’t answered” (they were, but not in the affirmative) why did he then rise up, wash his face and eat? David said that he had prayed and been answered. There was nothing more he could do.
This seems so hard at times, when we may pray but do not get the answer we want.
I think of St. Elizabeth Ann (Mother) Seton, who lost two children while working as foundress of Catholic schools in very primitive conditions. She prayed so hard for her children’s healing. They were healed for a time, but in the end, when they were taken from her, she had to face the same question.
I think, as C.S. Lewis says, that we pray “not to change God, but to change ourselves.” God would always have us pray for all that is good.
Had Mother Seton’s husband not died in Italy, she may never have converted to Catholicism, becoming the saint she was. God does not require the death, or the illness, but perhaps circumstances good or bad, will “all work together for the good.”
It is a mystery to us, to we who are human, to grieve over these questions. I do know that scripture tell us that *neither life or death, peril or any situation will keep us from the love of God. *That is all we can know, for now.
“For we see through a glass, darkly, but then, face to Face.” Heaven may be full of answers that we can’t comprehend now. While we are here on earth, I think we should continue to pray for all that is good, for our family and friends, for situations where we don’t know what to do. We should pray, no matter what the answer from God our Father may be.
I hope this helps, and think many people ask these questions from time to time.
All blessings and peace,
Kathryn Ann
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fred_conty
Guest
Trust in God seems to be a requirement of a good prayer.
How does someone measure this scientifically?
A prayer is always answered but not always in the way the person wishes.
How does someone measure this scientifically?
One of the saints said that the prayer of thanksgiving is another way of obtaining something.
How does someone measure this scientifically?
Many doctors have observed that the person’s desire to get well is very effective
in the process of recovery. Prayer is an indication of this.
How does someone measure this scientifically?
Group praying seems to more effective than an individual’s prayer.
Can someone measure this scientifically?
There are many sliding factors in prayer not easily undertstood, much less easily
measured scientifically.
Just a thought or two.
How does someone measure this scientifically?
A prayer is always answered but not always in the way the person wishes.
How does someone measure this scientifically?
One of the saints said that the prayer of thanksgiving is another way of obtaining something.
How does someone measure this scientifically?
Many doctors have observed that the person’s desire to get well is very effective
in the process of recovery. Prayer is an indication of this.
How does someone measure this scientifically?
Group praying seems to more effective than an individual’s prayer.
Can someone measure this scientifically?
There are many sliding factors in prayer not easily undertstood, much less easily
measured scientifically.
Just a thought or two.
J
JRKH
Guest
OK - I’m back…From what the studies show, and even from what I think you’re saying, it appears to me that the patients outcomes would be the same, regardless of whether any of them were prayed for or not, which seems like chance rather than any kind of divine intervention.
I see what you are saying and I can understand how you are seeing that.
And in so far as these studies and such are concerned, I think that it is quite correct.
That said, and in order to try to help you understand better, I must reiterate my precious advice and suggest that you put these studies and such aside…Stop thinking about them…Stop trying to figure them out. It is really sort of putting the cart before the horse.
For the time being just accept the reports. Assume that they are not in error - in so far as they go…Just don’t assume that these reports are the “be-all” and “end-all” of the matter. As a number of people have already posted, there are factors involved that science cannot allow for.
If you want to know about the efficacy of prayer built on faith, then start looking at faith. What does it call for, how does one pursue the spiritual life and grow closer to God (grow in holiness) etc. This is really where you need to go in order to begin to understand this. Not to some scientific study that is trying to measure something that really cannot be measured.
Peace my Friend.
James
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Julia_Mae
Guest
assistnews.net/Stories/2011/s11060048.htm
‘Back from the Dead’
A doctor brings an amazing report during Brisbane medical conference
Excerpt:
‘Back from the Dead’
A doctor brings an amazing report during Brisbane medical conference
Excerpt:
If you think about this scene, we can assume that at least twelve minutes passed between them sopping all attempts to revive him and his wife uttering her prayer. His coming back as certainly a miracle, but so is this from later in the story:
Not possible according to science. There are many people, certainly, who have been without heart/lung function, prayed for, and stayed dead. There are many brought back after less time than this man was without function, who do have the expected brain disfunction. Does that mean the wife’s prayer had nothing to do with his recovery?
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