Intercessory Prayers, etc

[WJL]

Hello,

How would you respond to the protestant argument against intercessory prayers that Christ is the only being that is required for prayer because knows what you are going to ask before you even do it, and thus, according to them, that praying to Mary and the Saints is unnecessary?

Also, I’ve seen some protestants cite a book called “The Development of the Christian Religion” by a Cardinal Newman in an effort to claim that Catholicism is pagan: “Temples, incense, oil lamps, votive offerings, holy water, holidays and season of devotions, processions, blessing of fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure (of priests and monks and nuns), images … are all of pagan origin…” (Page 359).

 

[passus]

Hello,

How would you respond to the protestant argument against intercessory prayers that Christ is the only being that is required for prayer because knows what you are going to ask before you even do it, and thus, according to them, that praying to Mary and the Saints is unnecessary?

The argument you’ve cited is a very poor one. That Jesus knows what you’re going to ask Him even before you ask it of Him doesn’t sound like any kind of ammunition against intercessory prayer…

St. Paul encourages Christians to pray for one another in 1 Timothy 2 and presumably we’re not expected to know the intentions and needs of those who seek our aid through prayer.

You might find this link helpful:

Praying to the Saints

Also, I’ve seen some protestants cite a book called “The Development of the Christian Religion” by a Cardinal Newman in an effort to claim that Catholicism is pagan: “Temples, incense, oil lamps, votive offerings, holy water, holidays and season of devotions, processions, blessing of fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure (of priests and monks and nuns), images … are all of pagan origin…” (Page 359).

There are a few problems here.

For one, the book you’re referring to is actually called An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine. Secondly, John Henry Newman wrote his Essay on the Development before he became a Catholic. This makes it confusing for some anti-Catholics who mis-read portions of the work which, at the time they were written, did not reflect Cardinal Newman’s beliefs as a Catholic.

The particular part you are referring to is very often mis-quoted by anti-Catholics who try to attack the Church with accusations of paganism and you’ll take care to note the use of ellipses in the quote you pasted. Here is the full quote from the book, without any omissions:

newmanreader.org/works/development/chapter8.html

The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison%between%, are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church.

(Continued below…)

 

[passus]

(…Continued from above)

As Karl Keating explains of the relationship between paganism and the Catholic Church in his book Catholicism and Fundamentalism:

Fundamentalists forget that even paganism had some truth mixed in with its error. Christianity took those elements of truth, removed erroneous associations so that they ceased to be pagan, and made use of the purified truth the better to express Christian notions. Christianity gave new meanings to old things, and in the process the pagan connections ceased. It was a matter of outright replacement, not compromise (150).

I hope that helps.

 

[adowcday]

Hello,

How would you respond to the protestant argument against intercessory prayers that Christ is the only being that is required for prayer because knows what you are going to ask before you even do it, and thus, according to them, that praying to Mary and the Saints is unnecessary?

Also, I’ve seen some protestants cite a book called “The Development of the Christian Religion” by a Cardinal Newman in an effort to claim that Catholicism is pagan: “Temples, incense, oil lamps, votive offerings, holy water, holidays and season of devotions, processions, blessing of fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure (of priests and monks and nuns), images … are all of pagan origin…” (Page 359).

By the logic of your Protestant friend, all prayer would be unnecessary, including prayer to Jesus. Dumb argument.

Yes, various aspects of Catholic faith are shared with pagans. For that matter, so is prayer, sacred meals (i.e., the Lord’s Supper), sacred washings (i.e., baptism), holy books or writings (i.e., the Bible), churches, sacred ministers (not just priests, but also those who preach and lead worship), worship music, etc. That is, Protestantism is likewise of pagan origin by that logic. What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Another dumb argument.

 

[Robbinson]

Hello,

How would you respond to the protestant argument against intercessory prayers that Christ is the only being that is required for prayer because knows what you are going to ask before you even do it, and thus, according to them, that praying to Mary and the Saints is unnecessary?

Also, I’ve seen some protestants cite a book called “The Development of the Christian Religion” by a Cardinal Newman in an effort to claim that Catholicism is pagan: “Temples, incense, oil lamps, votive offerings, holy water, holidays and season of devotions, processions, blessing of fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure (of priests and monks and nuns), images … are all of pagan origin…” (Page 359).

Interesting - most protestants (myself included) believe in the power of intercessory prayer (and scripture talks about the prayers of the righteous being powerful). Thus, most of us would ask our friends to pray for us when we are ill, etc. The divide between most Protestants and Catholics on the issue of intercessory prayer really is about whether deceased saints (believers) can pray for us or hear our prayers.

Here I break ranks with most Protestants and say yes - I believe scripture supports this idea

As to the pagen roots of incense, oil, etc - if that were true, it would be true of Judaism as well (and Jesus practiced Judaism perfectly while on earth). Of course - it is not true - although there are elements of Catholic doctrine which are more difficult to address on this issue (marion doctrines, for example, which have no jewish roots and have some commonality with queen worship in other religions).

Blessings,

Brian

 

[bmadamsberry]

As to the pagen roots of incense, oil, etc - if that were true, it would be true of Judaism as well (and Jesus practiced Judaism perfectly while on earth). Of course - it is not true - although there are elements of Catholic doctrine which are more difficult to address on this issue (marion doctrines, for example, which have no jewish roots and have some commonality with queen worship in other religions).

Blessings,

Brian

I suggest you read the new books by Mark P Shea: Mary, Mother of the Son which shows us Mary is rooted in Judaism and how it does not have commonality with Queen worship in other religions. The first book would address both.
Mary does have Jewish roots, everything from the Ark of the Covenant to the Queen Mothers of ancient Israel and Judah. In reference to its commonality with other religions, it’s a weak argument because there are bound to be similar things if, as it in fact is, there is a little truth in all religions (although Catholicism is the only to have that in fullness).

 

[WJL]

(…Continued from above)

As Karl Keating explains of the relationship between paganism and the Catholic Church in his book Catholicism and Fundamentalism:

I hope that helps.

I sent them this information that they basically said, “Oh, you just admitted the Catholic Church introduced pagan elements into their doctrine. If that’s true, then even Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism can have many elements of truth, does this mean that these “truthful” elements can be hand picked and used even by Christians?”

 

[WJL]

bump

 

[bmadamsberry]

I sent them this information that they basically said, “Oh, you just admitted the Catholic Church introduced pagan elements into their doctrine. If that’s true, then even Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism can have many elements of truth, does this mean that these “truthful” elements can be hand picked and used even by Christians?”

The Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. have elements are truth because G-d makes himself known to everyone. For example, when the Greeks looked outside they saw rain, lightning, the sun, and the earth. So, they had a rain god, a god of lightning, a sun god, etc. G-d does control the “wind and the waves”, the sun, rain, etc. So they saw “part” of G-d, but they failed to realize that it was G-d.
An even better example is our Protestant brothers and sisters. They have parts of the Truth (the Trinity, the Virgin Birth, salvation by Grace alone) but they don’t have the fullness and complete Truth (theotokos, Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, salvation through faith and works, Eucharist).
Now, with pagans things, the Church did take them… but they devoted them to the One who they came from. For example, holly is a pagan plant. However, CHristians took it and gave it a holy meaning. It is important to note that they did not take pagan doctrine, only pagan items. Furthermore there are some things that were taken from us. December 25th was a Christian holiday before it was celebrated by the Roman Empire was a celebration of the sun (again, check out the first book of Mary, Mother of the Son by Mark P. Shea for a better explanation of Christianity and Paganism).