Interdenominational relationships RCC/JW

[JP_Augustine]

Jaded27:

See, I’d love opinions on my relationship (if people think we’re right for each other, blah blah blah) but that’s not what the annullment is. It’s an opinion on whether or not you are free to marry. Just to clarify. But our priest doesn’t know me well enough or know him and I together well enough to say that. And frankly, even my best friend doesn’t know that. It’s tough for sure. You want to be absolutely positive of everything in life but there’s no way you can be.

Is she Catholic too? She must be.
I’m engaged to an amazing guy too (just as a side note). I’m bringing a friend home from work with me to meet him and our pets so he emailed me and said that he vacuumed our bird room and febreezed the house. So I emailed back and said “You rock!” lol.

This made me laugh out loud at work. I think I’m having a stressful week so things are extra specially funny.

Those ex jws are always good for some help. lol. ACtually, one of my witnesses is a DFd person so whatever works.

Wish I knew the same thing. . .

Glad I was able to bring a little laughter to your workday…

From what I understand, prior to getting married in the Church, you’ll be going through a pre-marriage discovery process, and part of that process is some testing of compatibility, etc. Also, from what I understand, information from your annulment becomes part of the pre-marriage discovery process, to ensure–as I mentioned earlier–that whatever “issues” were at play in the prior marriage have been addressed in one way or another (i.e., therapy, etc.).

I’m kinda glad to have the opportunity to go through all of that (at some point), since I think it will be good for both myself and my fiancee…

Just to let you know, when I talked to the woman who coordinates marriages and annulments at my parish, she said that it’s pretty rare for the Chuch NOT to grant an annulment, especially among non-Catholics. Interestingly, my priest today said that, while the Church has no power to dissolve a valid, sacramental marriage (among two Catholics), it does have the power to dissolve valid, non-sacramental marriages (as among those of us that are non-Catholics), if there is a compelling reason to do so.

I guess the long and short of it is, I wouldn’t be unduly concerned about a decree of nullity not being granted in your case…It’s very likely to happen…in time.

JPA

 

[CARose]

Hey Jaded,

I hope your meeting with the Priest goes well tonight. I think it’s nice that he’s so personable and that the two of you have enjoyed talking about matters of religion. It’s interesting to learn about the beliefs held by others, and it must be nice for you to learn about Catholicism from someone who should know if quite well.

If you remember, you may want to ask him directly if the RCIA program at your parish is open to those simply wanting to know more about Catholicism (without committing to an intent to convert). You can tell him we’ve suggested that other Parishes make it open especially to non-Catholic future spouses who want to know what their future children will be taught.

In one of your messages above you said something that caught my eye. You said:

Jaded27:

“my” god does not require this process of me.

Forgive my ignorance, because I really know very little about JW beliefs.

1.) Do you believe there is only one God?

2.) Do you believe that he has power over all things?

3.) Do you believe he takes a personal interest in you and the events of your life?

I think the answers to each of these are yes. If not, that explains my confusion.

If you answer yes, then it’s not a matter of Your God or Our God allowing these things to occur. God (your God, Our God, as He’s one and the same, even if we understand Him differently) has allowed them to happen, through the circumstances of our lives. Since we believe in an omnipotent (all powerful) God, we accept that even challenges we encounter are ultimately under His control. Therefore, we seek to grow through the adversity we encounter, figuring that we have the chance to improve ourselves in everything we do.

Now, are we always good at putting this bit of understanding into practice? I wish. But do we try to remember it, and encourage others in difficult times to seek the opportunity for growth? You bettcha’.

Well, anyways, Good Luck and God Bless!

CARose

 

[Jaded27]

CARose:

In one of your messages above you said something that caught my eye. You said:
“my” god

Forgive my ignorance, because I really know very little about JW beliefs.

1.) Do you believe there is only one God?

2.) Do you believe that he has power over all things?

3.) Do you believe he takes a personal interest in you and the events of your life?

I think the answers to each of these are yes. If not, that explains my confusion.

If you answer yes, then it’s not a matter of Your God or Our God allowing these things to occur. God (your God, Our God, as He’s one and the same, even if we understand Him differently) has allowed them to happen, through the circumstances of our lives. Since we believe in an omnipotent (all powerful) God, we accept that even challenges we encounter are ultimately under His control. Therefore, we seek to grow through the adversity we encounter, figuring that we have the chance to improve ourselves in everything we do.

Well, that’s why I put quotes around ‘my’ because I didn’t really mean an entirely seperate being. The answers would be yes to the above. I just mean that as a JW I am not required to go through this process and that the beliefs I have been raised in do not lead me to believe that God needs me to go through it either.
Which is where the “my” god “your” god comes in. See? Just demonstrating the differences really.

 

[CARose]

But certainly, “your” God has allowed you to be in a situation that “requires” you to go through the annulment process. You found a wonderful man, who happens to be Catholic. You love this man enough to care about what matters to him. These are all good things. This man you love, your DF, believes that God established a Church on earth and that this Church has authority over those who choose to know and love God. This Church requires that a faithful member of the flock ensure that they are free to marry before contracting a new marriage.

Your God, if he plays an active role in your life, could have done any number of things to have you avoid being in this exact moment of your life. But here you are. Is it not possible that through it, you are meant to grow?

This is the Catholic understanding of our lives. That everything we encounter, difficulties most especially, are there for a reason, even if we can’t begin to fathom their purpose. So, rather than get frustrated or become impatient, we are called to grow through them.

Don’t get me wrong! Catholics are as prone to frustration as the next person! We haven’t perfected our suffering!

But that explains what we strive towards (on a good day).

God Bless,

CARose

 

[Jaded27]

CARose:

But certainly, “your” God has allowed you to be in a situation that “requires” you to go through the annulment process.

Well, we all have free will. lol. But you could look at it that way, I suppose.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[CARose]

Absolutely we have a Free Will. You have, of your own free will, chosen the wonderful man you hope to soon marry.

Hey, how did it go with the Priest the other day?

Hope it went well,

CARose

 

[Jaded27]

CARose:

Absolutely we have a Free Will. You have, of your own free will, chosen the wonderful man you hope to soon marry.

Hey, how did it go with the Priest the other day?

Hope it went well,

CARose

It went well. We ended up staying and chatting with him for about two hours. I get the feeling no one ever asks him how he’s doingor what’s new with him. We like to chat with him about stuff like that.

We even ended up going to mass the next day (saturday afternoon). He was very happy to see us there. Always nice.

I got most of my questions answered. Some will just have to wait until the tribunal gets back to me.

I’ll tell you one thing I don’t like the sound of - the defender of the. . .I forget the official word for it now. But it’s like how I have a district attorney type person on my side who presents my reasons for an annullment; they have someone on the other side who defends the marriage vows and stuff. I am really nervous about that. Is it like real court rooms where the lawyer for the other side yells at you and stuff?

Other than that I guess I"m all set. I mailed out that initial form with just my name signed to it saying I want to procede with the annullment. We over nighted it to get our “need to get this done” point across. Fr. Kevin said it’s a good sign that we received that so quickly. Hopefully it means good things.

yea. . that’s about it. For now.

 

[carol_marie]

Hi Jaded,

Unless they do thing totally differently where you live… it’s not like you picture “in court” at all. This is how it went for my husband: He met with the tribunal Priest one time… basically told a bit about himself & his former marrage. The meeting didn’t last very long at all. He was given a questionare to fill out (this thing was huge… took quite a bit of time to complete… but you are a writer so you should sail through it. ) It was sort of a reflective type thing… Then he had to give his witnesses (sounds like you already did that?) and some giant question form is mailed to them. After that… you wait for all the information to get sent back to the tribunal… and then they review it and let you know their decision. I think after the intial meeting w/ the tribunal, my husband never went again… it’s all done behind the scenes. My husband’s case sailed right through… it took about 4 months from start to finish but I think that’s because I was converting to the Catholic Church and they didn’t want his annulment to hold me up.

See… if YOU were willing to convert… say at Easter time… I think yours would all sail right through… (kidding!)

(sort of! )

 

[JP_Augustine]

Hey Jaded,

Glad you continue to have good meetings with “your priest”…

Based on what I know, the “defender of the bond” handles the other side of the annulment, but I don’t think you’re going to be cross-examined by them. As far as I know, that’s all handled internally by the Tribunal, so you can rest assured on that point.

JPA

 

[Jaded27]

JP Augustine:

Based on what I know, the “defender of the bond” handles the other side of the annulment, but I don’t think you’re going to be cross-examined by them. As far as I know, that’s all handled internally by the Tribunal, so you can rest assured on that point.

JPA

::Wipes sweat off brow and takes a deep breath::

 

[Jaded27]

carol marie:

See… if YOU were willing to convert… say at Easter time… I think yours would all sail right through… (kidding!)

(sort of! )

I’ll consider it. (kidding!)

(definitely ) lol.

 

[JP_Augustine]

Jaded,

Believe me, I wouldn’t want to have to sit through that kind of cross-examination myself… that could get ugly.

BTW, out of curiosity, what is it like for you to go to Mass? I know the first time I went it was pretty disorienting and I basically had almost no idea what was going on.

Fortunately, it had been over 10 years since I left the JWs before I could step foot in any other type of religious setting, so my alarm bells weren’t going off too badly. Wouldn’t be surprised if yours were to some degree.

I’d be interested in your take on it and what was going through your mind during Mass.

Your curious ex-JW friend,
JPA

 

[Jaded27]

JP Augustine:

I’d be interested in your take on it and what was going through your mind during Mass.

Your curious ex-JW friend,
JPA

Hm, well, nothing bad really. I think it’s different for me. I’m not looking to be converted. I’m really happy as a JW. But I also have an open mind and can see the good in other religions so I’m not there to prove or disprove anything. Basically I can just sit back and enjoy the parts that I do like.

Hmm. . how to explain. . .
Fr. Kevin’s talk on Saturday was cool. It was all about how god has given us the power over our own lives and that we can change them with that power. He gave a great example of two bratty teenage boys who heard of a guru type wise person on a mountain. They started up the mountain to prove that he was not as wise as he thought. On their way up they caught a bird and one of the boys held it in his hand for the journey. When they got to the top and met with the wise man, one boy held the bird behind his back and said “If you are so wise then you can tell me if the bird in my hand is alive or dead.”

The man looked at him sadly and said, “Well, here’s the thing. If I say the bird is alive, you will crush it in your hand and say that I was wrong. But if I say it is dead then you will release it and it will be free. What you hold in your hand is not just a bird, but the power over life itself. Make the right decision.”

So the boys started down the mountain again and at the bottom they released the bird. They watched it soar off into the sky and they both appreciated the chances that they had in their lives and the beauty that God provides them with on a daily basis.

So yea, I liked that.

I like some of the singing. That’s nice. And I also have always thought churches in general were nice looking buildings. Let’s face it, they’re gorgeous. I like watching everyone go up for communion cuz it’s really peaceful with everyone singing and walking quietly up there. Especially the little kids. Cute.

I’d say the only thing I feel is. . . lacking isn’t even the right word. Because I’m not complaining at all. This isn’t my faith so I don’t mind, you know what I mean? But the only thing I would compare my meetings at the kingdom hall with is that the prayers and stuff are so rehearsed that I think some people (SOME) are not even really paying attention. They just think that going and being there is good enough and that paying attention isn’t required. Whereas, at a KH the entire program is focused on learning, not just ceremony.

Well, I shoudln’t say “just” ceremony because the priest’s five minute talk is usually informative.

Oh, I do hate the donation baskets being put right in front of you. I like the JW way of doing it with donation boxes in the back where you can go after the meeting if you want to. I don’t like to feel pressured.

And I know this is a dumb thing to dislike but I really feel awkward during the “exchaning the sign of peace” part with everyone. I dont’ WANT to shake the person’s hand behind me. lol. I just feel silly about it. But I’ve done it since I was little at funerals and stuff.

One thing I like that only John and I and a couple other people do is staying and singing to the very end of the last song. Lots of people leave as soon as the priest does, but we stay and sing. Just like we do at my meetings. I think i’ts cuz JWs have the prayer AFTER the last song so you kind of have to stay. But I have to say I have a bit more respect for the folks (mostly older people) who stay to the last verse and sing like you are supposed to instead of playing “race out of the church” with each other. lol.

So I hope no one takes offense to it. Those are just things I like or kind of dislike about it. But I would never like refuse to go or someting. John likes going and he is always happy after we do so therefore I like going with him.

 

[JP_Augustine]

Jaded,

Thanks for your post…definitely interesting!

I’ve got lotsa comments, since your experience echoed mine in many ways… Along the way, I’ll try to do a little “translation” if I can to help explain…

Jaded27:

Hm, well, nothing bad really. I think it’s different for me. I’m not looking to be converted.

One of the things I hope you’ll see among Catholics is that we’re not out to “recruit” you. In fact, the Church teaches that conversion comes from God alone. And, if you’re being called to the Catholic Church, you’ll know it (at least that’s my experience). Of course, we always have the choice of responding or not. That’s where “free will” comes in!

Jaded27:

Hmm. . how to explain. . .
Fr. Kevin’s talk on Saturday was cool.

I’ve been lucky in the homily department, too. In my parish, our priests are excellent speakers, and it’s pretty rare that I don’t learn something new every week. There are times when they’ve been so amazing that I’ve been literally blown away.

I think that’s a gift to be able to speak that way, and a lot of it comes from pretty extensive training and education, both in homiletics as well as in theology in general. Frequently, these guys have a pretty deep understanding of this stuff, and that frequently comes through in what they say during their homilies…

I like some of the singing. That’s nice. And I also have always thought churches in general were nice looking buildings. Let’s face it, they’re gorgeous.

Yep, I’ve always LOVED churches, even when I was a JW. When they’re well done, they’re stunning. And, for me, a beautiful church is more than a building. It’s a truly sacred space that gets me in touch with the sense of wonder and awe about God (pretty important when it comes to worship, I think).

Singing can be either incredible or incredibly bad, from my experience. My fiancee and I went on vacation to Montreal this summer and we went to a very famous basilica called the St. Joseph Oratory. They have a famous boys choir and we went to Mass to hear them. We were a little late, and the boys were singing something in Latin. It was so beautiful that Jill and I burst into tears on the spot. It honestly gave me a glimpse of what heaven must be like, and it sent chills up and down both of our spines.

On the other hand, I’ve been to parishes where the music is awful, and it’s something to be endured more than enjoyed. In my parish, we’re blessed with amazing musicians and music, so that’s always awesome.

I like watching everyone go up for communion cuz it’s really peaceful with everyone singing and walking quietly up there. Especially the little kids. Cute.

The Liturgy of the Eucharist is just amazing to me, and has been since the first time I went to Mass. Mass is, in itself, a prayer from beginning to end…and the celebration of Communion is intended to be what you describe: peaceful, contemplative and a time to be close to God.

St. Augustine (my favorite saint) once said that during the Eucharist, “God is closer to me than I am to myself.”

A pretty profound thought…and one that I meditate on a lot.

 

[JP_Augustine]

I’d say the only thing I feel is. . . lacking isn’t even the right word. Because I’m not complaining at all. …But the only thing I would compare my meetings at the kingdom hall with is that the prayers and stuff are so rehearsed that I think some people (SOME) are not even really paying attention. They just think that going and being there is good enough and that paying attention isn’t required. Whereas, at a KH the entire program is focused on learning, not just ceremony.

You’ve hit on a really important point here, and something I definitely noticed–and still notice today. Mass is like a symphony (as opposed to something more improvisational, like jazz). There’s structure and a conductor, and when it all comes together, it can be extremely beautiful.

As I began attending Mass, one of the things I did was buy a missal and read the prayers and readings prior to coming to Mass. (Maybe that’s a leftover habit from being a JW - I was almost always prepared for meetings). I got familiar with the texts and the prayers. The Eucharistic prayers are especially beautiful (I think there are 4 or 5 of them) and some are extremely ancient. As I understand it, the Eucharistic Prayer II comes from the 2nd century…

So, as a JW, I can totally see how the ceremonial/ritual aspect of Mass is pretty different. I can relate

Regarding the reverence and attitude of the people in attendance, you’re right on the money! Many, many Catholics (I’d say the majority) are pretty ambivalent about their faith, and it does seem like many “go through the motions”. It’s the way they’ve been raised, unfortunately. Scott Hahn, who is a theologian (and a convert as well) likes to say that the Catholic faith is like Fort Knox: there’s an incredible treasure that we have. Problem is: many people don’t even bother trying to open the door to see what’s inside

You’re right about the difference between a JW meeting and Mass. Mass is a prayer and it’s worship in the form of a ritual. JW meetings are more focused on education and that gives them both a different feeling.

I think personally that more Catholics could learn from the JWs in terms of really doing more serious “study”, because if you come to Mass every week and don’t do anything else, you’re missing out on a lot in the education department. At least that’s what I see…

Oh, I do hate the donation baskets being put right in front of you. I like the JW way of doing it with donation boxes in the back where you can go after the meeting if you want to. I don’t like to feel pressured.

I agree with you on that, and still feel that way. I’m going to set up a plan with my parish to have my monthly donation just taken out of my checking account, since I keep forgetting to write the darn check!

And I know this is a dumb thing to dislike but I really feel awkward during the “exchaning the sign of peace” part with everyone. I dont’ WANT to shake the person’s hand behind me. lol. I just feel silly about it. But I’ve done it since I was little at funerals and stuff.

Ah, yes, the Sign of Peace. I never got what that was about until it was explained to me. It is a direct reference to the words of Jesus when he said, ‘If you’re bringing your gift to the altar and remember you have something against your fellow man, leave the gift at the altar, go make peace with him and then offer your sacrifice.’

Since the Mass is a re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice, we symbolically exchange the Sign of Peace to say, “I hold nothing against my fellow man and can approach the altar with this sacrifice without holding anything against anyone else.”

For me, that helped a lot…

One thing I like that only John and I and a couple other people do is staying and singing to the very end of the last song. Lots of people leave as soon as the priest does, but we stay and sing. Just like we do at my meetings. I think i’ts cuz JWs have the prayer AFTER the last song so you kind of have to stay. But I have to say I have a bit more respect for the folks (mostly older people) who stay to the last verse and sing like you are supposed to instead of playing “race out of the church” with each other. lol…

I hate, hate, hate it when people leave during the closing song! Songs are prayers, and leaving during the song is like getting up and walking out mid-sentence during a prayer. It’s just plain rude and disrespectful to God.

As a choir member, singing is pretty important, so I get kinda riled up about stuff like that. Drives me nuts!

So I hope no one takes offense to it.

None taken at all! I loved what you wrote and appreciate your honest thoughts and comments. Great stuff!!!

Thanks for sharing

JPA

 

[Jaded27]

JP Augustine:

I hate, hate, hate it when people leave during the closing song! Songs are prayers, and leaving during the song is like getting up and walking out mid-sentence during a prayer. It’s just plain rude and disrespectful to God.

As a choir member, singing is pretty important, so I get kinda riled up about stuff like that. Drives me nuts!

JPA

I"m glad I’m not the only one that notices or is bothered by it. I do consider it disrespectful. I look at this way - you are singing to God. So would you walk out of that conversation right inthe middle of it?

 

[JP_Augustine]

Jaded27:

I"m glad I’m not the only one that notices or is bothered by it. I do consider it disrespectful. I look at this way - you are singing to God. So would you walk out of that conversation right inthe middle of it?

It’s interesting: some parishes it doesn’t happen that much (like mine)…others it almost seems like everyone thinks that they’re part of the recessional along with the priest and servers…

UGH.

 

[CARose]

Jaded,

I think that the concerns you raise regarding aspects of the Mass (as well responded to by Augustine) are spot on the money with some of the issues we, as Catholics, need to work to teach our children, so that they don’t continue these errors into future generations.

It’s truly sad that some take God so for granted that they go through Mass on auto-pilot. I must admit, there are times when have allowed myself to be pre-occupied during part or even all of the Mass, so I could be the person on whom you’re commenting. At other times, however, the simplicity, repetition and beauty of the Litargy free me to meditate on Christ and the beauty of the sacrifice He made for Mankind.

At this point, I probably have every word of the Mass (priest and replies) committed to memory, so that if the priest deviates, I tend to notice (although it could be he’s using an alternate Eucharistic Prayer and I simply confused it, or it’s one for less frequent occations). Having the Mass fully memorized allows you to drift in your thoughts towards God, for whom the Mass is being offered, in a semi-meditative state.

Regarding communion and the kids, yeah, aren’t they the sweetest!

What bugs me more even than people leaving before the end of the singing is when people leave straight from communion! They don’t take a moment to reflect on what they’ve just received, they don’t wait for the final blessing, they just bolt. What, one hour a week is too much for them to give Our Lord?! That floors me!

More on the line of Learning vs Prayer / Meditative mode of the two forms of Meeting: What most Catholics need is more Catechesis and scripture study, something the JW’s are expert at. I attend a bible study at our Parish when it’s offered. The one’s we’ve been going through have been the Footsteps of God Video Series that each run 6 weeks long. If you ever have the opportunity, I highly recommend them. I’ve loved them.

Augustine,

I like your idea of seeing if the Parish will make arrangements to auto-deduct from your account on a regular basis. Our Parish just went ahead and got a Merchant Account (we’re doing major repairs to our Mission Church, so we have a large Capitol Campaign underway). We could suggest that Parishoners pledge a set amount for each week for their regular contribution, rather than our providing them with the weekly envelopes.

Well Jaded,

I’m impressed by the quality of your observations. I’m happy that you’ve been willing to recognize that it makes your fiance happy to attend and that that’s enough for you to join him.

I hope things continue to progress well as you head through the annulment process and work towards your marriage.

God Bless,

CARose

 

[JP_Augustine]

Hey Jaded,

Just wondering: what did you find out about sitting in on RCIA??

JPA

 

[Jaded27]

JP Augustine:

Hey Jaded,

Just wondering: what did you find out about sitting in on RCIA??

JPA

I actually didn’t even ask again yet. I’m soooooo busy right now with job, life, wedding plans, etc that I just don’t have the time anyway. not saying I won’t take it someday, just that I totally can’t right now.

My new job requires me to be on call every third week for that entire week and I’m also signed up for most holidays that are coming up. So. . .busy busy busy. Aren’t we all.