Interested in your opinion

[Luvya]

Well, it sounds like you believe that the person blocked out the words in an attempt to censor it for whoever bought it at the bookstore. It’s the only way I can make any sense of your strong objection. I can understand your objection if that is the assumption, although I wouldn’t judge the person as harshly as you seem to do.

It is a barbaric act, which I despise.

If you haven’t ever tried this yourself, you might not understand. But we do slowly become more like the people we surround ourselves with. If we spend time in the company of angry people, or loving people, or hateful people, or positive people, or negative people, we will become more like them, all things being equal.

I doubt it. Maybe some people with weak self-control will be changed, but strong ones, with a developed set of critical skills will “escape” unscathed.

 

[nickybr38]

It is a barbaric act, which I despise.

I doubt it. Maybe some people with weak self-control will be changed, but strong ones, with a developed set of critical skills will “escape” unscathed.

I have yet to meet a person with strong self control…

 

[Barbkw]

You think I overreacted? Maybe I did. But I feel very strongly about books. I have seen book burnings and the feeling remains alive. Book mutilation and burning are an affront to civilization, to freedom of thought. Only barbarians do that. Civilized persons do not, even if they disagree with the contents of some books. Have you read Fahrenheit 451 by Bradbury? Just curious. It is not the end of the world. But seeing the barbarians and vandals in action is still pretty frustrating.

Book mutilation? As if books are human. :hypno:

Seriously? Was this book a work of fiction? Are you in a tissy over a fictional romance novel?

It appears he only blacked out cuss words. In our generation, I can easily imagine which swear words those were.

You might check out a nonfiction book on the rights of ownership. He bought the book, the book belongs to him. He owned the book. He chose to save the book but didn’t want the vulgar language to be read.

 

[jtodisco]

You think I overreacted? Maybe I did. But I feel very strongly about books. I have seen book burnings and the feeling remains alive. Book mutilation and burning are an affront to civilization, to freedom of thought. Only barbarians do that. Civilized persons do not, even if they disagree with the contents of some books. Have you read Fahrenheit 451 by Bradbury? Just curious.

It is not the end of the world. But seeing the barbarians and vandals in action is still pretty frustrating.

I have read many books and I have read Fahrenheit 451 twice. However, you make a great leap from someone going overboard with a marker to book burnings. Already in this discussion it was noted that there is a difference between crossing out words in a book and highlighting them, so if you can accept the difference there you surely should be able to accept the difference between using a marker and using a torch.

Again, I too have a great love for reading and abhor ignorance. I read every day and to the point that some of my friends jokingly call me their living encyclopedia. But the books themselves are just paper, ink, and binding materials. What they contain and how it affects us is what’s important. In an age when books are mass produced and also digitized there is little fear that anyone will be able to successfully censor much of anything. Look at China’s attempts to censor the internet and you can see how such attempts are pure folly, even for intimidating authoritarian regimes.

So I reiterate, this case of one book being marked up is nothing to lose one’s head over. It is no more a sacrilege than if a book is thrown away or recycled. While the book belonged to the person who crossed out words was it not theirs to do with as they pleased? You claim to be a great lover of freedom. If that is true then you would respect the freedom of the person who owned the book prior to you. If you truly love freedom of thought and expression as much as you claim then you would also defend the previous owner’s right to freely express themselves by altering the text of the book by crossing some parts out. Or is the author of the book a petty dictator who cannot be confronted by the reader? And just as it is now your book you may also do with it as you please. Or is the book of more importance than the individual who owns it? If that is the case, then you have a strange conception of freedom indeed.

 

[Luvya]

I have read many books and I have read Fahrenheit 451 twice. However, you make a great leap from someone going overboard with a marker to book burnings. Already in this discussion it was noted that there is a difference between crossing out words in a book and highlighting them, so if you can accept the difference there you surely should be able to accept the difference between using a marker and using a torch.

Both are removing information. One is removing a specific piece of information, the other one is removing all the information. Highlighting does not remove the information.

So I reiterate, this case of one book being marked up is nothing to lose one’s head over. It is no more a sacrilege than if a book is thrown away or recycled. While the book belonged to the person who crossed out words was it not theirs to do with as they pleased? You claim to be a great lover of freedom. If that is true then you would respect the freedom of the person who owned the book prior to you.

Sure, but if he chose to modify the content, then he should have kept it and not sell it to the unsuspecting public.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

It is a barbaric act, which I despise.

I think of barbarians as people who pillage murder and rape civilians! How does defacing a book even begin to compare?

I doubt it. Maybe some people with weak self-control will be changed, but strong ones, with a developed set of critical skills will “escape” unscathed.

Certainly, a logical person can read one bad book and won’t get swept away by the characters in the book. But over the long term, the stories you watch and read on a daily basis will start to affect you.

 

[nickybr38]

Both are removing information. One is removing a specific piece of information, the other one is removing all the information. Highlighting does not remove the information.

Sure, but if he chose to modify the content, then he should have kept it and not sell it to the unsuspecting public.

But you said you could still make out the words? So you are still able to read the book as it was intended?

 

[karow]

I bought a book from a second hand bookstore. A previous owner chose to grab a black, felt-tip pen and tried to obliterate words he considered “dirty”. (I cannot quote the words here, since the same words would be considered “dirty” here, too. But you can guess.) Of course I only discovered this fact once I bought that book, and fortunately the words are still legible. I am interested in your opinion about this person. Do you think that his action was proper, or do you think that it was improper?

My opinion is simple. Anyone who attempts to censor a book and sells it to an unsuspecting retail store is a low-life scum.

Take the book back and tell the store that you’re shocked and dismayed that such a reputable establishment would sell vandalized materials. Get your money back if you can. And don’t patronize this bookseller again.

 

[jtodisco]

Both are removing information. One is removing a specific piece of information, the other one is removing all the information. Highlighting does not remove the information.

Sure, but if he chose to modify the content, then he should have kept it and not sell it to the unsuspecting public.

In the end I believe you are, to use the cliche, “making a mountain out of a molehill”. If you really are this upset by something so trite then I think you need to grow up a little.

Part of me suspects you are less upset over the censoring of the book as it relates to freedom (since you seem to have a bit of a warped view of freedom anyway) and more upset that you wasted a few bucks buying a book that was marked up. I’m sorry, but that happens when you shop second-hand. It’s part of living in a free society where things can get a little messy. I have bought used books a number of times that seemed to be free of markings only to discover that there are notes in the margins or pages have been folded or torn, etc. It happens.

With that said, I’ve become rather bored with this discussion. Perhaps we can talk again when someone screws up your order at a fast food restaurant and you are outraged by the injustice of the situation? Or when your favorite television show is cancelled, which was clearly done for malicious purposes?

 

[karow]

So I reiterate, this case of one book being marked up is nothing to lose one’s head over. It is no more a sacrilege than if a book is thrown away or recycled.

So the bookburners just have to spin their endeavors as “recycling” efforts. Well, as long as they’re being green about it, I suppose it’s Okay.

 

[a_priori]

I don’t like to read books that others have read anyway. I like pristine new books so I’m the wrong person to ask. If I was forced to buy a used book because there were no new editions available and I found the words adulterated, I would demand my money back.

Redacting words one finds offensive is disordered. When his mother finds out what he did she should drag him out of the basement, take away his marker, make him take a shower and tell him that he’s 35 years old and it’s time for him to move out.

 

[Barbkw]

So the bookburners just have to spin their endeavors as “recycling” efforts. Well, as long as they’re being green about it, I suppose it’s Okay.

I buy the book, I own the book. If I want to use the pages to start my BBQ for Memorial Day, that’s my right.

 

[Luvya]

Take the book back and tell the store that you’re shocked and dismayed that such a reputable establishment would sell vandalized materials. Get your money back if you can. And don’t patronize this bookseller again.

Well, that is not an option. In the town there is only one store selling second hand books, and i don’t hold them responsible, since it is literally impossible to check all the thousands of books they buy and sell. One should not blame the innocent for the deeds of the culprit. Of course that is not the way Christianity works… (Sorry, could not resist.)

 

[Joseph_Kemp]

YOU WROTE: “I bought a book from a second hand bookstore. A previous owner chose to grab a black, felt-tip pen and tried to obliterate words he considered “dirty”…Do you think that his action was proper, or do you think that it was improper?”

I suspect this person was scrupulous. Scrupulous people are often terrified of going to Hell, even for something tiny, such as reading a “dirty” word in a book. Crossing out bad words in ANY book (I assume it was novel-length) sounds like an obsessive, time consuming task, probably driven by fear. Precisely the sort of thing a scrupulous person would do.

I have seen several scrupulous Catholics terrified of selling or passing on books with “dirty” words in them. They think that if someone reads such words and “falls away” from the Church, that person’s blood will be on their hands. They will be damned along with the person that they led into “sin.” All from reading dirty words in a book.

Such fears are absolutely ridiculous. But you would not believe how common they are. Scrupulosity is a horrid disorder of the conscience. Many Catholics have it. It is usually caused by bad reasoning, and by a poor understanding of logic and Church teaching. The only thing that can put a person in danger of Hell would be mortal sin. And reading books with dirty words in them (or even SELLING books with dirty words) is most definitely NOT a mortal sin.

I actually heard a priest talk about this. He was rather embarrassed, but he was very firm that using “dirty words” is not a mortal sin. The F-word, the SH-word, the B-word, and others – these words are not mortally sinful. Vulgar, yes. But not sinful. Not even venially sinful. Just vulgar. That is all.

Catholic schools regularly teach their English students books filled with “dirty words” and vulgarity. The Catcher In The Rye, for example. The Grapes of Wrath. Of Mice and Men. Even Shakespeare has some remarkably vulgar passages in it, as in Hamlet (“Between a maiden’s legs, yes.” – Uttered by Hamlet, with his head very nearly between Ophelia’s legs.)

I was taught every one of these books in Catholic school. And none of these is considered “mortally sinful” in any way whatsoever. Quite the contrary. If teens are not taught what exists in the world, they will be very ill-equipped to deal with it. The schools did exactly the right thing. Catholics are not meant to shrink from the world. And they certainly are not meant to cross out “dirty” words in books. Such a thing is dishonest and wrong. It smacks of a disordered fear of Hell. I would be very surprised if this was not actually the case.

How do you determine if a book is “bad” or not? How do you determine if a book is “sinful” or not? This is a very, very subjective area. And the Church knows it. No genuine answer is possible in this area, no matter how much you think about it, unless the difference is very, very clear (as in, say, pornography). It is an area of “fuzzy logic,” where a true and definitive answer cannot be made.

The Church used to have a list of “Forbidden Books” that Catholics supposedly could not read, because they were “harmful” to faith and morals. This list was completely discontinued during Vatican II for precisely the reason stated above. There is no objective, rational way to classify many books as “bad” or not. Everyone has a different opinion.

As stated, if it is something obvious, like pornography or erotica, that is a little different. But most books fall into an indefinable grey area that is non-articulate, intractable. No precise answer is possible. And there is nothing anybody can do about that.

I, for example, own a book called The Books of Blood. It is written by Clive Barker, an openly homosexual author. But the man is a creative genius. The Books of Blood are an astonishing creative explosion, from a vast imagination. The flow of invention is extraordinary.

The Books of Blood DO contain a very graphic homosexual sex scene in one area. But that is not the reason I bought the book. And the book, as a whole, is not focused on sexuality. It is a collection of horror stories of the utmost inventive technical mastery.

I thus do not find sufficient grounds for rejecting such a book based solely on the evidence of one or two areas I might find objectionable. The value of the book as a whole makes such a rejection impossible, at best.

Other people may feel differently, but that is only their opinion, and absolutely nothing else. And that is as far as anyone can reasonably go in this area. If I feel differently, that is my business. If I see value in something, that is between me and God. And absolutely no one can objectively establish otherwise.

YOU WROTE: “My opinion is simple. Anyone who attempts to censor a book and sells it to an unsuspecting retail store is a low-life scum.”

I despise scrupulous behavior wherever I see it. It disgusts me in a way that is hard to describe. Crossing out “dirty” words in a book sets a VERY bad example for other Catholics.

It sends the message that we must be afraid of the world. That we must quake in terror of Hell over every little thing. That we cannot enjoy or pass on a “vulgar” book, for fear that someone who reads it will fall into sin, into Hell, and so will we. This is simply absurd. God would never do that. Reading one book with “dirty” words will never definitively change anybody. And most books cannot be precisely discounted as valueless or “bad,” just because they may contain something you do not like. This is an INCREDIBLY subjective area. And nobody can establish anything more definite here than that.

 

[Luvya]

YOU WROTE: “I bought a book from a second hand bookstore. A previous owner chose to grab a black, felt-tip pen and tried to obliterate words he considered “dirty”…Do you think that his action was proper, or do you think that it was improper?”

I suspect this person was scrupulous. Scrupulous people are often terrified of going to Hell, even for something tiny, such as reading a “dirty” word in a book. Crossing out bad words in ANY book (I assume it was novel-length) sounds like an obsessive, time consuming task, probably driven by fear. Precisely the sort of thing a scrupulous person would do.

I have seen several scrupulous Catholics terrified of selling or passing on books with “dirty” words in them. They think that if someone reads such words and “falls away” from the Church, that person’s blood will be on their hands. They will be damned along with the person that they led into “sin.” All from reading dirty words in a book.

Such fears are absolutely ridiculous. But you would not believe how common they are. Scrupulosity is a horrid disorder of the conscience. Many Catholics have it. It is usually caused by bad reasoning, and by a poor understanding of logic and Church teaching. The only thing that can put a person in danger of Hell would be mortal sin. And reading books with dirty words in them (or even SELLING books with dirty words) is most definitely NOT a mortal sin.

I actually heard a priest talk about this. He was rather embarrassed, but he was very firm that using “dirty words” is not a mortal sin. The F-word, the SH-word, the B-word, and others – these words are not mortally sinful. Vulgar, yes. But not sinful. Not even venially sinful. Just vulgar. That is all.

Catholic schools regularly teach their English students books filled with “dirty words” and vulgarity. The Catcher In The Rye, for example. The Grapes of Wrath. Of Mice and Men. Even Shakespeare has some remarkably vulgar passages in it, as in Hamlet (“Between a maiden’s legs, yes.” – Uttered by Hamlet, with his head very nearly between Ophelia’s legs.)

I was taught every one of these books in Catholic school. And none of these is considered “mortally sinful” in any way whatsoever. Quite the contrary. If teens are not taught what exists in the world, they will be very ill-equipped to deal with it. The schools did exactly the right thing. Catholics are not meant to shrink from the world. And they certainly are not meant to cross out “dirty” words in books. Such a thing is dishonest and wrong. It smacks of a disordered fear of Hell. I would be very surprised if this was not actually the case.

How do you determine if a book is “bad” or not? How do you determine if a book is “sinful” or not? This is a very, very subjective area. And the Church knows it. No genuine answer is possible in this area, no matter how much you think about it, unless the difference is very, very clear (as in, say, pornography). It is an area of “fuzzy logic,” where a true and definitive answer cannot be made.

The Church used to have a list of “Forbidden Books” that Catholics supposedly could not read, because they were “harmful” to faith and morals. This list was completely discontinued during Vatican II for precisely the reason stated above. There is no objective, rational way to classify many books as “bad” or not. Everyone has a different opinion.

As stated, if it is something obvious, like pornography or erotica, that is a little different. But most books fall into an indefinable grey area that is non-articulate, intractable. No precise answer is possible. And there is nothing anybody can do about that.

I, for example, own a book called The Books of Blood. It is written by Clive Barker, an openly homosexual author. But the man is a creative genius. The Books of Blood are an astonishing creative explosion, from a vast imagination. The flow of invention is extraordinary.

The Books of Blood DO contain a very graphic homosexual sex scene in one area. But that is not the reason I bought the book. And the book, as a whole, is not focused on sexuality. It is a collection of horror stories of the utmost inventive technical mastery.

I thus do not find sufficient grounds for rejecting such a book based solely on the evidence of one or two areas I might find objectionable. The value of the book as a whole makes such a rejection impossible, at best.

Other people may feel differently, but that is only their opinion, and absolutely nothing else. And that is as far as anyone can reasonably go in this area. If I feel differently, that is my business. If I see value in something, that is between me and God. And absolutely no one can objectively establish otherwise.

YOU WROTE: “My opinion is simple. Anyone who attempts to censor a book and sells it to an unsuspecting retail store is a low-life scum.”

I despise scrupulous behavior wherever I see it. It disgusts me in a way that is hard to describe. Crossing out “dirty” words in a book sets a VERY bad example for other Catholics.

It sends the message that we must be afraid of the world. That we must quake in terror of Hell over every little thing. That we cannot enjoy or pass on a “vulgar” book, for fear that someone who reads it will fall into sin, into Hell, and so will we. This is simply absurd. God would never do that. Reading one book with “dirty” words will never definitively change anybody. And most books cannot be precisely discounted as valueless or “bad,” just because they may contain something you do not like. This is an INCREDIBLY subjective area. And nobody can establish anything more definite here than that.

Dear Joseph,

thank you very much for your thoughful words. I agree with your assessments.

 

[FCEGM]

Sure, but if he chose to modify the content, then he should have kept it and not sell it to the unsuspecting public.

Since book collections of deceased persons sometimes end up on the shelves of booksellers, there is reason to consider this option rather than that someone knowingly sold this book in the condition you found it.

 

[Luvya]

Since book collections of deceased persons sometimes end up on the shelves of booksellers, there is reason to consider this option rather than that someone knowingly sold this book in the condition you found it.

Possible.