Interesting article Marian apparitions from an Orthodox point of view.

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puzzleannie said:
change the thread title to “article on Marian apparitions from an anti-Catholic POV” and move it to the proper forum, non-Catholic religions

site linked is not representative of the Orthodox POV and what has her rant to do with Eastern Catholicism?
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Geeze, you must have the power! I couldn’t find this today and finally had to go to my history to find it and, lo and behold, it was moved. I know the Orthodox Church doesn’t like to be called Catholic. I’ve always called them, Orthodox Catholic, but my mistake, I guess. I have seen many, many threads about the Orthodox Church in the Eastern Catholic thread. Too bad this was moved, I think some people of the Orthodox faith could shed some light on it.

Also, what is POV?
 
coco2 said:
Geeze, you must have the power! I couldn’t find this today and finally had to go to my history to find it and, lo and behold, it was moved. I know the Orthodox Church doesn’t like to be called Catholic. I’ve always called them, Orthodox Catholic, but my mistake, I guess. I have seen many, many threads about the Orthodox Church in the Eastern Catholic thread. Too bad this was moved, I think some people of the Orthodox faith could shed some light on it.
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Actually, Orthodox do like to be known as Catholic, it is how we think of ourselves. (Orthodox Catholic is even better though, IMO).

CAF doesn’t like it very much, we have been told it creates confusion, at least a while back that’s what came out.
coco2 said:
… Also, what is POV?
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Point Of View, most likely.
 
Hesychios said:
Actually, Orthodox do like to be known as Catholic, it is how we think of ourselves. (Orthodox Catholic is even better though, IMO).

CAF doesn’t like it very much, we have been told it creates confusion, at least a while back that’s what came out.

Point Of View, most likely.
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I don’t see how the Orthodox couldn’t be considered Catholic.
 
jwinch2 said:
Very well stated, thanks for that Gary.

To your point, I was speaking about this with a Dominican Friar not too long ago and his perception was that Our Lady is best viewed as the the most blessed of the saints and as a powerful advocate who can pray for us and lead us to her Son. However, he was not comfortable with people taking it much further than that. Coming from a Friar in the same order as St. Dominic who purported to receive the Rosary from Our Lady, I found his statements striking. In addition, his guidance has been quite helpful in discerning my own approach to Mary.
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I think any “excesses” regarding the Blessed Virgin has only to do with a lack of education of the faith as a whole. The Church in the past unfortunately has not put a great deal of effort in educating the lay faithful on the faith and the spiritual life as a whole. Some people’s spiritual life consist entirely of looking for “signs and wonders” and saying novenas and other devotions that are promised to perform these great miracles. Don’t get me wrong, miracles and signs are great (I’m a believer in Fatima, Lourdes and Guadalupe). But if that’s all your spirituality is made of, then you have no true relationship with Our Lord (or his mother!) and that is the true prayer. John of the Cross is reputed to say that he wouldn’t bother even crossing the street to see a stigmatic.😛

Personally the bleeding or crying statutes genuinely make me uneasy. I much prefer or I should say, I’m more comfortable with the oil streaming icons of our Orthodox brothers and the oil streaming Catholic images, because I understand the oil has healing properties. I love reading about St. Padre Pio and his totally inexplicable miracles and the astounding supernatural phenomena that surrounded him in his life, (I also understand his body is mostly in-corrupt? Not sure). But I saw a picture of an approved stigmata in 1920s (I believe she’s Teresa?) the pictures kinda freaked me out. I love Fatima the best of all- reminds me of the great miracles of the OT, as does Lourdes. Then no. 2 is Guadalupe, our lady is just so beautiful and the tilma is inexplicable and the story so so wonderful! The end of the crazy blood sacrifices and the conversion of 7/8 million Indians in such a short while after the Aparition are to me some of the greatest miracles outside the Bible. I love Zeitoun- It was caught on TV! And I understand that many Muslims convert because of it- I always imagine that that body of brilliant light must be what the the transfiguration must have looked like to Sts. Peter, James and John.

Medjugorje- I understand they defy Church authority every time they’re asked to stop and that some messages border on the heretical. Apparently the Apparition says that it’s the last one and no other apparition after her will follow?..That reminds me of Mohammed’s claims. St. Padre Pio and every other Saint and approved visionary were obedient to the church even under extreme persecution by the Church hierarchy they obeyed, God always vindicates them himself eventually, and this uncompromising obedience of the seer is one of the signs the Church uses to test the apparition. Our Blessed Lady, the picture of obedience would never lead anyone to defy his own Bishop. But that’s just my take on it. Suffice it to say, “skeptical” is a very conservative description of my feelings about Merjugorje, Garabandal and the like.

Peace!
 
Marybeloved said:
I think any “excesses” regarding the Blessed Virgin has only to do with a lack of education of the faith as a whole. The Church in the past unfortunately has not put a great deal of effort in educating the lay faithful on the faith and the spiritual life as a whole. Some people’s spiritual life consist entirely of looking for “signs and wonders” and saying novenas and other devotions that are promised to perform these great miracles.
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Interesting. I can’t argue with any of that.

How would you go about explaining the many, even some on this forum, who are fairly learned in their faith who might still fall into the realm of excessive Marian devotion? I’m not trying to be contrary, I am at a loss to explain it.
 
As a lifelong Roman Catholic who recently moved East, I agree that Marian devotion has gotten out of hand in the Roman Church. I’ve heard people make claims like the Rosary is the only way to heaven. Huh? 🤷

Thankfully I have yet to hear this from bishops including the Pope. But the laity has gotten out of hand. Many of the anti-Marian claims of many anti-Catholic groups do have some basis with these certain people. Catechesis certainly is lacking.
 
jwinch2 said:
How would you go about explaining the many, even some on this forum, who are fairly learned in their faith who might still fall into the realm of excessive Marian devotion? I’m not trying to be contrary, I am at a loss to explain it.
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I don’t know, perhaps the “school” you attend in terms of spirituality matters. I was taught st. Josemaria’s plan of life. I don’t follow it exactly but it gives me the framework and makes it easy to see that every legitimate spirituality is centered on our Lord, and has the mass, the Eucharist, and daily meditation at its heart and our lady is an ever-present reality.

Also, education about the faith (doctrinal) does not necessarily mean education in the interior life- both need good teachers. I think if someone is well grounded in both, Mary is seen as a sure guide and help (and protector) on the perilous journey through life to sanctity, rather than our fairy god-mother. I guess good doctrinal and spiritual formation has the goal of fostering desire for sanctity above all, which is the whole point of everything, no? The one thing necessary? When your motive is to leave everything, pick up your cross and follow Christ, and to become all he wants us to be, everything else will naturally fall into its proper place- What I mean by lack of good education/formation by the Church of the faithful is the failure of fostering this desire as the point/goal of Christian life/faith. We even see it in many priests themselves. People on the road to sanctity love our lady completely, rely on her help totally, but it can never ever compete with Christ because he is himself the whole point of the whole journey.

Peace!
 
Marybeloved said:
I don’t know, perhaps the “school” you attend in terms of spirituality matters. I was taught st. Josemaria’s plan of life. I don’t follow it exactly but it gives me the framework and makes it easy to see that every legitimate spirituality is centered on our Lord, and has the mass, the Eucharist, and daily meditation at its heart and our lady is an ever-present reality.

Also, education about the faith (doctrinal) does not necessarily mean education in the interior life- both need good teachers. I think if someone is well grounded in both, Mary is seen as a sure guide and help (and protector) on the perilous journey through life to sanctity, rather than our fairy god-mother.
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Interesting. Education in the interior life is not something discussed a great deal. I certainly don’t think about it enough.

Oh, and the Fairy God Mother line was pretty funny…
 
Hm? Do we expect anything else? As Our Lord stated in Holy Scripture. He would set enmities between the children of Satan and the children (Roman Catholics) of Mary. Our Lady has many enemies but do we cower from them? No. Our Lady as is fair as the morning rising and as terrible as an army set in array.

When we pray the rosary we shake the very pillars of hell its self. Demons flee in terror at the utterance of the Angelical Salutation.

Let these people say what they will. They shall answer for it on the Last Day.
Formosus said:
This women shows that she never abandoned her Anglicanism when she converted to Russian Orthodoxy.
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Do not mislead yourself. The East was hating Rome long before it became fashionable with Protestantism.
 
coco2 said:
I was perusing and found this article which I found rather eye opening. This is the first I have seen anything from the Orthodox point of view. There are several apparitions that leave me feeling uncomfortable and I have struggled with this for a long time. I found this very interesting. Scroll down to the article by Miriam Lambouras.

[(name removed by moderator)lainsite.org/html/apparitions_of_the_virgin_mary.html](http://www.(name removed by moderator)lainsite.org/html/apparitions_of_the_virgin_mary.html)
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Protestants using the Orthodox to attack the Catholics. Great.:rolleyes:
 
jwinch2 said:
Interesting. Education in the interior life is not something discussed a great deal. I certainly don’t think about it enough.
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Isn’t that odd? The interior life is the whole point of our faith, yet it’s in the background. Which is how the laity picks up all these (sometimes strange) devotions in place of it 🤷.

The homilies, the language, the teachings, the parish life should foster or point to the interior life. Back when I used to visit opus dei centres, it would take only a few visits for the goal of sanctity to begin to feature prominently in my mind. Somehow, the meditations homilies, general life seemed to put a spotlight on this, and everything else, including their great devotion to the Virgin, was an arrow that pointed the same way. Someone told me that in the early church, everyone strove to be a saint, In the middle ages, holiness became the business of religious, and the laity was left with popular devotions. I guess V2 was about that but was hijacked. Don’t know how we can get the parish life to become a place to grow our interior lives in earnest and foster holiness. 🤷
 
jwinch2 said:
Interesting. Education in the interior life is not something discussed a great deal. I certainly don’t think about it enough.
Click to expand...
Isn’t that odd? The interior life is the whole point of our faith, yet it’s in the background. Which is how the laity picks up all these (sometimes strange) devotions in place of it 🤷.

The homilies, the language, the teachings, the parish life should foster or point to the interior life. Back when I used to visit opus dei centres, it would take only a few visits for the goal of sanctity to begin to feature prominently in my mind. Somehow, the meditations homilies, general life seemed to put a spotlight on this, and everything, including their great devotion to the Virgin, was an arrow that pointed the same way. Someone told me that in the early church, everyone strove to be a saint, In the middle ages, holiness became the business of religious, and the laity was left with popular devotions. I guess V2 was about that but was hijacked. Don’t know how we can get the parish life to become a place to grow our interior lives in earnest and foster the pursuit of holiness. 🤷
 
Marybeloved said:
Isn’t that odd? The interior life is the whole point of our faith, yet it’s in the background. Which is how the laity picks up all these (sometimes strange) devotions in place of it 🤷.

The homilies, the language, the teachings, the parish life should foster or point to the interior life. Back when I used to visit opus dei centres, it would take only a few visits for the goal of sanctity to begin to feature prominently in my mind. Somehow, the meditations homilies, general life seemed to put a spotlight on this, and everything, including their great devotion to the Virgin, was an arrow that pointed the same way. Someone told me that in the early church, everyone strove to be a saint, In the middle ages, holiness became the business of religious, and the laity was left with popular devotions. I guess V2 was about that but was hijacked. Don’t know how we can get the parish life to become a place to grow our interior lives in earnest and foster the pursuit of holiness. 🤷
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I agree completely. I think that is one of the reasons that lay movements such as Opus Dei, Lay Orders, etc. are popular. If you take a look at threads on this forum related to those things, or even just authentic approaches to spirituality, you will see great interest. Your explanation as to why makes a good deal of sense.
 
Te_Deum said:
Hm? Do we expect anything else? As Our Lord stated in Holy Scripture. He would set enmities between the children of Satan and the children (Roman Catholics) of Mary. Our Lady has many enemies but do we cower from them? No. Our Lady as is fair as the morning rising and as terrible as an army set in array.

When we pray the rosary we shake the very pillars of hell its self. Demons flee in terror at the utterance of the Angelical Salutation.

Let these people say what they will. They shall answer for it on the Last Day.

Do not mislead yourself. The East was hating Rome long before it became fashionable with Protestantism.
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Our Marian devotions are better than yours. Nyah-nyah :rolleyes:
 
Well my thoughts:
some people will always deny all the apparitions of Our Lady. But I have investigated so much about certain miracles performed by her, that I have no doubt. Our Lady of Guadalupe for example, she is such a miracle. She has been studied in so many ocations, that even some scientists were converted in the process. On my part, I have been told: “Pray the Rosary every day, and our Lady will put the demons to fly. your sins will decrease amazingly”

So far that’s what ive done, and the results were exactly what I was told. And now, I am very devout to Our Blessed Mother, so much that no one no matter what they say, they wont make me think otherwise.

Sure one can have doubts about certain apparitions, but as for those approved by the Vatican, you can be sure they are legit.
 
ChrisRedfield47 said:
Well my thoughts:
some people will always deny all the apparitions of Our Lady. But I have investigated so much about certain miracles performed by her, that I have no doubt. Our Lady of Guadalupe for example, she is such a miracle. She has been studied in so many ocations, that even some scientists were converted in the process. On my part, I have been told: “Pray the Rosary every day, and our Lady will put the demons to fly. your sins will decrease amazingly”

So far that’s what ive done, and the results were exactly what I was told. And now, I am very devout to Our Blessed Mother, so much that no one no matter what they say, they wont make me think otherwise.

Sure one can have doubts about certain apparitions, but as for those approved by the Vatican, you can be sure they are legit.
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Right, my friend. I would never try to dissuade anyone from the Holy Rosary- what other marian devotion can compare? And you’re right- The power of the rosary is too well attested by Popes and Saints for any of us here to try and downplay our Lady’s amazing help! But you seem to have the right relationship w/our Lady- you look to her to help you on the road to heaven rather than as someone to just get you stuff, which of course she can, but we pray Rosary to learn about Christ, to love/honor our mother and to become holy. I, like you, believe from experience, that Rosary can transform you.

Peace!
 
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